Reworking Celestians!

[Servant of Dante]

We are fortunate from a modeling perspective that they are so easy to make. A razorback and multimelta/HF/HB bits from anywhere, with the turret mounted more toward the front. Holy bits and/or fleur-de-lys transfers and you've got yourself an immolator.

I will be using the extra turrets from my 2 Exorcists.

At some point (maybe next week?) I'd like to see a unit of the week discussion about what exactly is wrong with Celestians, and what can be done to make them useful (as in a rules re-write by the community).

The main point of the "Unit of the Week" topics (from my point of view at least) is to discuss how units are to use and where possible, try to gather information on how to make them better (if that is possible) using the rules we have Rewriting rules is okay, but would be better in either a topic of its own or in the "Special Projects" section (such an endeavour would deserve one, so it stays focused )

As for unit of the week for next week, well I haven't decided yet

So now I would like to get everyone's input on how to fix Celestians. I'm not really interested in comments about who they are just generally useless (although I don't think this will really be a problem in this forum), I would like to know WHY, in your opinion, they are useless, and what you think could be done to fix them.

I don't have that many game with my sisters under my belt, but I'll start with my observations anyway . . .

Compared to the BSS you get:

+1WS, +1A*, +1 LD*, maximum squad size of only 10, and a different AoF. This all costs an extra 2pts/model.

*excluding a veteran superior in a BSS

For reference, the BSS AoF gives Preferred Enemy for a single shooting or assault phase, an the Celestians' gives Furious Charge for a single friendly assault phase.

So, the stats bonuses I can get behind. I think it's nice to have a squad of sisters that can potentially hold its own in cc and land hits. As every unit besides the BSS has a max size of 10, I'm not so worried about that.

I don't even think paying an extra 2 points is that big a deal.

As far as I can tell, the problem comes in with the AoF and the options. The current one is almost useless. As any BA player will tell you, that +1S on the charge is nice, but its not all that great, even when everyone has it all the time at no cost. I'm not sure what to do about a new AoF, but that's what this topic is for! Probably something that is useful both in shooting and assault.

The complaint with the options that I can see is that they don't allow the unit to be kitted for cc, when their stats advantage over a standard sister is almost exclusively for just that. So maybe they should have access to power weapons across the board, or to the entire melee weapons list. I could even see giving them all access to the Ranged Weapons list. SM veterans get lots of extra options, and that's basically what Celestians are analogs of.

[GogglesDown]

Two reasons I dont take them:

 

1. They cost about as much as a marine but aren't as good stat wise.

 

2. Anything they can do a different squad does better/more efficiently. BSS are cheaper, better act of faith, and obsec. Seraphim are better in cc, can get shred, and have hit and run. Retributers get rending AoF.

 

The problem with just giving them power weapons and calling it a day is that other armies have dedicated cc units that strike harder and faster than celestians do. They will be largely dead by the time they strike back and then overrun as they flee from loosing combat.

 

Give them power weapons, I5, 4++, access to combi-weapons or volkite chargers, and a precision shot AoF and we'll talk.

[Servant of Dante]

Two reasons I dont take them:

 

1. They cost about as much as a marine but aren't as good stat wise.

 

2. Anything they can do a different squad does better/more efficiently. BSS are cheaper, better act of faith, and obsec. Seraphim are better in cc, can get shred, and have hit and run. Retributers get rending AoF.

 

The problem with just giving them power weapons and calling it a day is that other armies have dedicated cc units that strike harder and faster than celestians do. They will be largely dead by the time they strike back and then overrun as they flee from loosing combat.

 

Give them power weapons, I5, 4++, access to combi-weapons or volkite chargers, and a precision shot AoF and we'll talk.

The problem with this suggestion is that it makes no sense for them to be higher I than Seraphim I just can't justify raising their initiative in a fluffy way,. I really don't want to change the stat line. If they had PWs then they would be better at fighting against heavily armoured troops than seraphim (albeit without Hit and Run). Maybe the combi-weapons would be OK, but I would be against adding volkite chargers to the codex just for Celestians. I would like to work within the framework that the codex already provides to tweak Celestians into being playable, at least in some situations.

 

The 4++ might be a good option for the act of faith.

 

Wait, precision shot lets you choose the target model on 6+ to-hit right?

 

Unfortunately, I've come to accept that sisters just aren't  a heavy-hitting cc army, so if you compare any "cc" sisters unit to say, sanguinary guard, they look terrible. As it stands, Cleestians are basicly smaller BSSs with a few extra stat points that they don't have the proper options to make effective use of.

[Ficinus]

I think they could be made more viable if you made them a point cheaper, gave them access to a third special weapon (maybe second heavy weapon too), allowed them to take power weapons and/or eviscerators instead of special weapons (so a max of three, not counting the superior), gave them the option to take a ccw or a second pistol for +1/2 ppm, and replaced their act of faith with two new ones, one geared towards cc (perhaps a +2 bonus to initiative and/or strength, or possibly rending) and one to shooting (maybe granting them twin-linked or sniper).

 

This would allow them to be a flexible unit that could be geared to close combat or shooting as the player wants, as well as allowing them to be used as mini-dominions with three meltas (which would be more reliable if they were given a twin-linked AoF).  I don't think it would be over-powered (these proposed Celestians would be 15 ppm with double pistols compared to 19 ppm for Vanguard Vets, but with lower base strength, toughness, and initiative, and the AoF and Shield of Faith instead of ATSKNF and Heroic Intervention), but you might want to play-test them, since a full sized unit with double pistols would be able to dish out 20 shots and then assault with 40 attacks, so they might need to be more expensive.

 

As to a Sisters combat squad, I've had moderate luck with the Battle Conclave.  With eight death cult assassins or crusaders (or a mix) and two priests (one with litanies), you have a unit that can dish out a lot of attacks or tank almost anything, re-rolling saves, to-wounds, and hits on the first round of combat.  With a rhino, they're only 230 points.  That said, they lack an assault vehicle, so they can end up being useless, but it would be easy to double up on them.  Also, it can come off as sort of a jerk move to an opponent, given how they re-roll almost everything.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Their role is their problem. What are they there for? There is no clear idea. They have "elite" stats and rules boosting them in assault, but no tools for assault and assault is already done better by two other units in the codex. Simply put, they are filler for the elites category.

 

How to fix them: redefine their role completely.

 

Idea 1: Make Celestians like those Space Wolves where they are ICs who can split up and join other squads for extra support, playing up the fact they are elite veterans.

 

Idea 2: Make them something the codex doesn't have, like a Sisters version of scout snipers, but using unique Sororitas themed weapons. Picture a squad of 3-5 veteran Sisters shooting a hail of those anti-psyker stakes into a librarian conclave or farseer council, and suddenly enemy domination of the psychic phase ends and the playing field is leveled. Celestians now have a reason to exist, and a weakness of the codex is addressed within existing themes.

[dracpanzer]

I've tried many variations for Celestians, some are entertaining, but somehow too much like the elite choices in the SM dex. 

 

I'm beginning to think the best way to represent Celestians as veteran AND paragons of faith, while ensuring they don't just act like Sternguard with boob plate. Is to give them access to ALL of the different acts of faith in the Sisters armory and to allow them to roll for one each turn, two a turn with a simulacrum.

 

Being as veteran as they are, they should be able to draw on that experience to replicate the rituals of their past.  Their faith has been proven enough for them to be able to not have it dimmed after just one minor miracle or two.....   You might want to give them perhaps an improvement to their 6++ but I wonder if that would be too much. 

[*Furyou Miko]

Char's right, basically.

To understand the problem with Celestians, you have to look at their origins.

In Second, there were no Celestians. What there were was a Bodyguard option for the Canoness.

The Canoness' bodyguard was a unit of seraphim. If the Canoness did not have a jump pack, then her Seraphim Bodyguard could exchange their jump back and bolt pistols for a bolter.

When third came around, the Sisters needed an Elites unit. So the Seraphim Bodyguard with bolters became the Celestian squad. Of course, this was in the 3e rulebook army list, so nobody had any special rules at all (other than Marines, who had ATSKNF). The Celestians were thus basically Battle Sisters with +1 leadership (just like Seraphim, other than the gear... and all the other elite bodyguard units, such as Space Marine command squads, which weren't yet differentiated from Veteran squads).

When C:WH came out, they needed a special rule to differentiate them. So they were moved towards a more close combat role - they got Hatred as base, and +1 attack, and the ability to take a banner. This was fairly good because of the way Faith worked in that edition, but it still was far from perfect. The Celestians didn't really have a defined role other than 'this is the squad you can take an extra one of if you have a Canoness'. At this point, they also got their own fluff - they weren't Seraphim with Bolters any more, so they didn't get Angelic Visage. They were now Veteran Battle Sisters.

This was when Marines got their Techpriest and their Apothecary as Command Squad upgrades, incidentally, and Veteran squads started to get Infiltrate since the Command Squad had been split off from them. That was their new niche. But the C:WH already had that unit in the form of Inquisitorial Warbands, so the Celetians were somewhat left out in the cold. They just weren't needed to fill that niche... and because they were no longer 'Seraphim Bodyguard without jump packs', the WH codex didn't give them back any of their Seraphim special rules either.

Then came the White Dwarf codex. At this point, nobody could really remember second edition. It was 5th. Everything was dumbed down and simplified to an extent that beggars belief, except wound allocation. So Ward and Kelly looked at the Witch Hunter codex for inspiration, saw that Celestians got Hatred as their sole special rule, and decided to give them their +1 Strength AoF, because Priests were already giving everyone Hatred (although as they were 45 points at the time, nobody took priests. They were a point sink).

They also gave them +1 attack because they wanted to make them able to use it, but didn't have a sensible model for a Sister with bolt pistol and close combat weapon. They wanted to let them continue to be fielded using the regular Battle Sister models - so they got an extra attack and a bolt pistol, instead of the BB+CCW that every other assault specialist unit gets. Which is okay, really - they had the same attack power as Assault Marines when they used their Act and charged, and cost the same in terms of points.

Forgetting that A) Assault Marines have jump packs and ATSKNF, and Assault Marines arestill useless.

So anyway. For C:AS, they decided to try and fix the problem by giving Celestians a massive points reduction, and changing Furious Charge for a flat +1 Strength. The problem, of course, still being that they're effectively Tactical Marines who, for one round a game, can pretend to be slow assault marines. For a point more than tactical marines... and with no option for plasma weapons (grav wasn't a thing yet).

Which, of course, still leaves them with no defined role! Are they assault troops? Are they line troops? If they're line troops, why aren't they Troops? If they're assault troops, why don't they have more mobility? They certainly aren't a bodyguard any more, there's a Command Squad option for that now!

So. The key to fixing Celestians is to define them a combat role, or to actually make them good as super-generalists.

As Veteran Battle Sisters - super-generalists - I suggest adding the following;

Cost: 16 ppm

Strong in Faith: The squad's Shield of Faith save is increased to 5++ (this gives them durability to better hold the line)

War Hymns: The unit may use War Hymns, as the Priest rule. All Celestians must sing the same Hymn. (This lets them make use of that extra attack without giving everyone SMV style weapon options. It also gives the Canoness' AoF a purpose, because you don't want to put a Priest with them)

Take and Hold: The squad has the Objective Secured special rule. (this means that even when taken as part of a formation or special detachment, should we get access to such a thing, we can still out-score any other army. This is actually fairly unique.)

[CaptainHelion]

I'm a huge fan of giving them ObSec. That just makes sense. It's one of those "Why didn't I think of that before" moments for me.

[Naminé]

I feel like for starters, they need the same re-roll shield of faith rule that Seraphim have.

 

Second, I would suggest as others say that they have multiple acts of faith they can draw upon due to their long years of experience.  Preferred enemy, furious charge, ignore cover, shred, 3+ feel no pain; as well as things like gaining ObSec for a single turn, run and shoot, relentless, etc.

 

From there, I would say they can regain their act of faith after it has been used on a 2+.  After the next act of faith, it becomes a 3+, then a 4+ etc.  Simulacrums not only allow you to re-roll your Leadership test but allow the Celestians to re-roll this check as well.  The limiting factor would be that you could only use each Act of Faith once per game.

 

I would even allow for 'stacking' the acts of faith, meaning you could apply several in various combinations within a single turn, provided you don't fluff the rolls, of course.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Further thought building on my idea for Celestians.

 

AKA "something useful to do with all those storm bolter Sisters laying about"

 

Celestians come armed with Storm Bolters and "Aspergillum Ammunition"

 

Aspergillum Ammunition - Special bolt rounds that douse targets in blessed ointments and holy water. Str 3 AP4, Witchbane

 

Witchbane - Units containing at least one model with the psyker, psychic pilot, or brotherhood of psykers rule are always wounded on a 2+ (or roll two dice for penetration in the case of targets with an AV), unsaved wounds (or HP) on such units are then discarded, instead removing a number of psychic dice from the controlling player's psychic dice pool in his following turn that is equal to the number of unsaved wounds that were discarded, then the unit must take a Perils of the Warp test.

 

Act of Faith: Purge the Unclean - used during your shooting phase, successful test and the unit gains preferred enemy (psykers).

[Servant of Dante]

So. The key to fixing Celestians is to define them a combat role, or to actually make them good as super-generalists.

 

As Veteran Battle Sisters - super-generalists - I suggest adding the following;

 

Cost: 16 ppm

Strong in Faith: The squad's Shield of Faith save is increased to 5++ (this gives them durability to better hold the line)

War Hymns: The unit may use War Hymns, as the Priest rule. All Celestians must sing the same Hymn. (This lets them make use of that extra attack without giving everyone SMV style weapon options. It also gives the Canoness' AoF a purpose, because you don't want to put a Priest with them)

Take and Hold: The squad has the Objective Secured special rule. (this means that even when taken as part of a formation or special detachment, should we get access to such a thing, we can still out-score any other army. This is actually fairly unique.)

Removed most of that to reduce the size of this post.

 

Thanks for the insight. It's made the problem much more clear to me. I like Miko's ideas the best I think, although there are some other things I'd like to incorporate. If it's not clear, I plan on doing an actual rewrite myself soon.

 

I feel like for starters, they need the same re-roll shield of faith rule that Seraphim have.

 

Second, I would suggest as others say that they have multiple acts of faith they can draw upon due to their long years of experience.  Preferred enemy, furious charge, ignore cover, shred, 3+ feel no pain; as well as things like gaining ObSec for a single turn, run and shoot, relentless, etc.

 

From there, I would say they can regain their act of faith after it has been used on a 2+.  After the next act of faith, it becomes a 3+, then a 4+ etc.  Simulacrums not only allow you to re-roll your Leadership test but allow the Celestians to re-roll this check as well.  The limiting factor would be that you could only use each Act of Faith once per game.

 

I would even allow for 'stacking' the acts of faith, meaning you could apply several in various combinations within a single turn, provided you don't fluff the rolls, of course.

 I definitely like the idea of multiple AoFs. Not so much on regaining them, maybe the simulacrum lets them reuse a single AoF, and they should definitely be "stackable." As for the invuln, I'm leaning toward the straight 5+ (even though it is statistically worse than the ^+ re-rollable) because I like that the Seraphim have their own special rule.

 

 

Further thought building on my idea for Celestians.

 

AKA "something useful to do with all those storm bolter Sisters laying about"

 

Celestians come armed with Storm Bolters and "Aspergillum Ammunition"

 

Aspergillum Ammunition - Special bolt rounds that douse targets in blessed ointments and holy water. Str 3 AP4, Witchbane

 

Witchbane - Units containing at least one model with the psyker, psychic pilot, or brotherhood of psykers rule are always wounded on a 2+ (or roll two dice for penetration in the case of targets with an AV), unsaved wounds (or HP) on such units are then discarded, instead removing a number of psychic dice from the controlling player's psychic dice pool in his following turn that is equal to the number of unsaved wounds that were discarded, then the unit must take a Perils of the Warp test.

 

Act of Faith: Purge the Unclean - used during your shooting phase, successful test and the unit gains preferred enemy (psykers).

I don't really want to push Celestians into an anti-psyker role, I'd prefer that they remain generalists. Also, you proposed AoF is strictly weaker than the BSS AoF (maybe change it to re-roll all to-hit rolls?). If they have muliple AoFs, that could be one. I think that the special ammunition could be an upgrade for the unit that applies to bolt pistols, bolters, and storm bolters (since they all share the same ammunition).

 

So here's the thing. I really like the multiple AoF rule, but access to war hymns is amazing, and would give a huge boost in cc.

Maybe if none of their AoFs are cc oriented they can have War Hymns and a couple cool AoFs?

 

I'ma go write up some rules.

 

EDIT: Thank you so much everyone for all of your input. It makes me happy that this community can make constructive comments like this (and if I'm honest, I'm happy that anyone replied at all!).

[Servant of Dante]

Celestian Squad............................................................................................................................................. 80 points

 

Celestian WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 3 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+ Infantry

Celestian Superior WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 3 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+ Infantry (character)

 

Unit Composition: 4 Celestians and 1 Celestian Superion

 

Wargear:

• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Boltgun
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades

Special Rules:

• Act of Faith
• Boundless Devotion
• Glorious Harmonies
• Objective Secured
• Shield of Faith

Acts Of Faith:

• Emperor’s Fist
• Righteous Wrath
• Purge the Unclean

Options:

• May include up to five additional Celestians 16 pts/model
• One Celestian may take a Simulacrum Imperialis 10 pts
• Up to three other Celestians may take one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list.
• The entire squad may take melta bombs 5 pts/model
• The Celestian Superior may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
• The unit may select a Rhino or Immolator as a Dedicated Transport.

Boundless Devotion: Any model with this special rule and the Shield of Faith special rule has a 5+ invulnerable save.</p>

 

Glorious Harmonies: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule can take a Leadership test at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat. If the test is successful, choose one of the following war hymns to immediately take effect.

The Emperor Protects: The unit re-rolls all failed armour and invulnerable saves until the end of the phase.

The Emperor’s Strength: All models in the unit have the Smash special rule until the end of the phase.

The Righteousness of the Emperor: The unit re-rolls all failed rolls To Wound until the end of the phase.

 

Acts of Faith: The Celestian Squad has two Acts of Faith, each of which may be used once each battle. A Simulacrum Imperialis allows a single Act of Faith of your choice to be used a second time. If the model with the Simulacrum Imperialis is removed as a casualty, the Celestian Squad may attempt no further Acts of Faith in that battle. They are still subject to the limit of using one Act of Faith each phase.

 

Emperor’s Fist: One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in your Shooting phase. If successful, all models in the Celestians’ unit gain the Fleet and Relentless special rules until the end of the current phase.

Righteous Wrath: One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in your Shooting phase. If successful, the Celestians’ unit may fire twice in this Shooting phase, and may select a different target each time.

I'm not completely sure about the AoF's. I decided not to use the special ammunition because I don't really want to add new wargear the the codex.

Too much? Something need tweaked? Completely off? What do you think?

[Drehn]

Your still somewhat running into the same problem....you gave them a CC Based Squad Ability (which I would clarify as just War Hymns as opposed to using another name) and then 3 Shooting based AoF.  Your still creating a unit without a clear defined role, which is one of the things SoB do best.  The units primarily used all have clear, well defined roles on a battlefield.

[L30n1d4s]

What if Celestians became a SOB version of Sternguard?

 

For example, they could get the same Special Ammo, access to 2 Special/Heavy Weapons, any model could take a Combi-Weapon, and their Act of Faith could change to something that supports shooting (like all shots are always Precision Shots).

 

Alternately, they could get their own version of Special Ammo:

 

1) Blessed Bolts       -- 18" S5 AP3 (Heavy 1)

2) Penitence Bolts    -- 24" S4 AP5 Ignore Cover, Pinning (Rapid Fire)

3) Condemner Bolts -- 24" S4 AP4 Psy-Shock (Rapid Fire)

4) Infernus Bolts      -- 12" S3 AP- Small Blast (Assault 2)

[Servant of Dante]

Your still somewhat running into the same problem....you gave them a CC Based Squad Ability (which I would clarify as just War Hymns as opposed to using another name) and then 3 Shooting based AoF.  Your still creating a unit without a clear defined role, which is one of the things SoB do best.  The units primarily used all have clear, well defined roles on a battlefield.

That's the thing, I don't want to pigeon hole Celestians into a specialization. They should be able to hold their own in cc, and put out a respectable chunk of shooting. I accept that this might not be possible or the right answer. What would they specialize in? I like Miko's idea of "Veteran Battle Sisters - super-generalists"

 

Edit: the hope is that there is enough there to make them useful in any situation. Yes they have stuff for shooting and assault, but they also have a lot more stuff than an average unit.

 

The reason it's not just War Hymns (and this is one of my pet peeves) is that it gets incredible messy rules-wise. the War hymn's rule refers to a ministorum priest specifically, and is written with a single model in mind. rather that pin on a list of addendum to make everything work smoothly, I just renamed it and tweaked a couple words to make it clear.

 

What if Celestians became a SOB version of Sternguard?

 

For example, they could get the same Special Ammo, access to 2 Special/Heavy Weapons, any model could take a Combi-Weapon, and their Act of Faith could change to something that supports shooting (like all shots are always Precision Shots).

 

Alternately, they could get their own version of Special Ammo:

 

1) Blessed Bolts       -- 18" S5 AP3 (Heavy 1)

2) Penitence Bolts    -- 24" S4 AP5 Ignore Cover, Pinning (Rapid Fire)

3) Condemner Bolts -- 24" S4 AP4 Psy-Shock (Rapid Fire)

4) Infernus Bolts      -- 12" S3 AP- Small Blast (Assault 2)

Again, this could work, but I would really rather avoid adding new wargear to the codex. I want this to feel more or less like an organic part of the codex as a whole.

 

I'm going to keep vouching for the ideal of the super-generalist until it's clear that everyone else is against it.

 

Thanks for the replies!

[CaptainHelion]

Let all the models take meltabombs, actually. That'd make them potentially quite dangerous.

[Servant of Dante]

Let all the models take meltabombs, actually. That'd make them potentially quite dangerous.

Good Point. . . Edit: Done

[GogglesDown]

Access to a deepstriking dedicated transport like a drop pod or arvus lighter might help differenciate them from the other units while keeping them generalist.

[*Furyou Miko]

My War Hymns concept was actually to let them all gain Smash. The whole unit. That's why I specifically did not add any ability to take special close combat weapons. The entire unit can gain 2-3 S3AP2 attacks, or 1 S6AP2 attack every round of combat potentially, and S4 or S8 once per game - but they're still I3, so they're striking last against almost everything that's not got a power fist, which naturally balances what would otherwise be a very powerful ability.

 

Of course, you could then put a priest or two in the squad, but at that point you're taking those priests away from other squads that could be potentially even better.

[Servant of Dante]

Ok. I wasn't sure what you intended due to the way war hymns is worded. I errored on the side of less powerful.

 

I think dropping the ccw option and changing war hymns is a cleaner solution.

 

I also think that I could drop the third AoF (the anti-psyker one)

[*Furyou Miko]

They don't need a CCW really - CCW + Bolt Pistol is given to units to make them choppy by giving them two attacks base. Celestians already have two attacks base - essentially, they already have a CCW, it's just built into their profile instead of their wargear.

[Servant of Dante]

So with the smash option do they really all need access to melta bombs?

 

Oh and I did remove the ccw option

[*Furyou Miko]

Melta Bombs let them kill heavier targets than Smash - Smash is a maximum of T9 / AV 12, while Melta Bombs can let them hurt T10 / AV15.

[CaptainHelion]

Plus it makes the decision to take meltabombs more tactical. They're not entirely necessary, but you might feel that being able to swing a s8 armourbane attack against an Ironclad might be well worth 5pts a model.

[Servant of Dante]

Ok. (Duh only S3)

I think I'm going to drop the anti-psyker AoF nobody's said they love it, and I think it's a little superfluous.

 

I think we're doing good work. Thanks guys!