Reworking Celestians!

[Evil Eye]

I wonder if, with a hypothetical new Codex/reboot, Celestians could be reworked into Soroitas TEQs? AFAIK, Sisters don't have ANY 2+ armour, and whilst obviously actual Terminator armour is unavailable to them, I'm sure they'd be able to fashion a slightly simpler equivalent. Perhaps give them 2+ saves but with a reduced invulnerable save and a mildly lower statline, compensated for by being cheaper and not having the Bulky rule (and thus being able to ride in Rhinos). Granted it'd require a bit of fluff-fudging/retcon work, but I can think of far worse retcons to the Sisters' history than "Huh, turns out we have some pretty cool armour in our inventories!".

 

Alternatively, as has been mentioned, go the way of Wolf Guard with them.

[grendal1989]

It would be easier(both mechanic wise and fluff wise) to just say it was artificer armor of some form and call it a day. I do wish Celestine wasn't the only 2+.

[*Furyou Miko]

There's a few of ways we could go with that.

 

1) Sororitas Centurions. Makes a heck of a lot more sense than Marine ones.

 

2) In Hammer and Anvil, the Canoness had an 'Aspiriate Cloak'. Clearly this is an off-brand Cloak of St. Aspira relic, but the name implies that it's a piece of equipment that could well be made more widely available.

 

3) Sororitas Terminators. Frankly, if the Ordo Hereticus can get hold of Terminator Armour, so can the Sisterhood. I don't like this plan, it's boring, makes us even more 'diet marines', and Terminators aren't good anyway. The Mac'n'Cheese option.

 

4) Sisters armed with Storm Shields. Not tougher against small arms, but certainly more survivable against the big guns.

 

5) Artificer Armour. It's clean, neat, and kind of bland. The McDonalds answer. Effectively the same as #2, but less Sisters-flavour.

[GogglesDown]

While bland, being able to buy AA, maybe a better invulnerable save via cloaks, and power weapons would make me consider them. I would definitely pick up a squad of them to paint if the models were ornate and "knightly".

[Servant of Dante]

There's a few of ways we could go with that.

 

1) Sororitas Centurions. Makes a heck of a lot more sense than Marine ones.

 

2) In Hammer and Anvil, the Canoness had an 'Aspiriate Cloak'. Clearly this is an off-brand Cloak of St. Aspira relic, but the name implies that it's a piece of equipment that could well be made more widely available.

 

3) Sororitas Terminators. Frankly, if the Ordo Hereticus can get hold of Terminator Armour, so can the Sisterhood. I don't like this plan, it's boring, makes us even more 'diet marines', and Terminators aren't good anyway. The Mac'n'Cheese option.

 

4) Sisters armed with Storm Shields. Not tougher against small arms, but certainly more survivable against the big guns.

 

5) Artificer Armour. It's clean, neat, and kind of bland. The McDonalds answer. Effectively the same as #2, but less Sisters-flavour.

But think of what artificer armour represents - the life's work of a master artificer, it's master crafted power armour, a masterpiece by an artist . . . but it is easy to come by in C:SM

[CaptainHelion]

It's bland as in it's not especially Sororitas. It's just the most basic method of giving a 2+ save in the Imperium. There's nothing more to it conceptually.

[*Furyou Miko]

While bland, being able to buy AA, maybe a better invulnerable save via cloaks, and power weapons would make me consider them. I would definitely pick up a squad of them to paint if the models were ornate and "knightly".

Hmm, if combining with a cloak for a 5++ or 4++ invulnerable save, I suppose the artificer armour's boringness would be kind of overwhelmed by the rest of the model. 

 

But think of what artificer armour represents - the life's work of a master artificer, it's master crafted power armour, a masterpiece by an artist . . . but it is easy to come by in C:SM

Well, the Marines do have a lot of junior not-quite-a-techpriests who otherwise spend most of their time tinkering with their rhinos. I reckon that tinkering with their armour is probably what they do in their free time.  A hundred junior techmarines could probably turn out ten suits of artificer armour a year.

 

It's bland as in it's not especially Sororitas. It's just the most basic method of giving a 2+ save in the Imperium. There's nothing more to it conceptually.

Basically, this.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

How about the Ecclesiarchy with all their trillions of currency from Emperor believing faithful devotees, using said money to buy there army the best of the best for the elite Celestiens.

That's how they afford Artificier armour.... they tell Mars, make me these armour... look at all this money..

Personally i would really hate to see them Marined, and given the same boring stuff. But believe Artificier armour should be supplied to them.

Now as for options, NO to storm shields, yes to power weapons, and option to load out with new guns. EG; combi-stake for free, Holy Promethium for flamers to up the Strength and AP, Combi-weapons, and maybe some artifacts left over from the Sisters of Silence.

 

Terminator armour is just lame for Sisters, we are not Space Sisters...instead of storm shields, what about a Holy Icon that grants a 3++ each??

[Servant of Dante]

It's bland as in it's not especially Sororitas. It's just the most basic method of giving a 2+ save in the Imperium. There's nothing more to it conceptually.

Well, I tried

[Arkaniss]

What's this nonsense that Artificer Armour isn't Sororitas? Just because they've not had it before in a codex? It's a fancier and better version of Power Armour and Sisters have Power Armour... makes perfect sense to me. Elite troops/leaders get better versions than the rank and file.

 

Now, as to if it's a suitable fix for Celestians or not... that's an entirely different matter.

[*Furyou Miko]

How about the Ecclesiarchy with all their trillions of currency from Emperor believing faithful devotees, using said money to buy there army the best of the best for the elite Celestiens.

That's how they afford Artificier armour.... they tell Mars, make me these armour... look at all this money..

Personally i would really hate to see them Marined, and given the same boring stuff. But believe Artificier armour should be supplied to them.

Now as for options, NO to storm shields, yes to power weapons, and option to load out with new guns. EG; combi-stake for free, Holy Promethium for flamers to up the Strength and AP, Combi-weapons, and maybe some artifacts left over from the Sisters of Silence.

 

Terminator armour is just lame for Sisters, we are not Space Sisters...instead of storm shields, what about a Holy Icon that grants a 3++ each??

 

Sisters had Storm Shields for ages. They were called Praesidium Protectiva though. Storm Shields make more sense than a super duper "rosarius plus two".

 

Also, I think the correct verb for becoming more like a marine is 'marinated'.

 

Also, why would we get artefacts from the militant arm of the AAT?

 

What's this nonsense that Artificer Armour isn't Sororitas? Just because they've not had it before in a codex? It's a fancier and better version of Power Armour and Sisters have Power Armour... makes perfect sense to me. Elite troops/leaders get better versions than the rank and file.

 

Now, as to if it's a suitable fix for Celestians or not... that's an entirely different matter.

Didn't say it wasn't Sororitas. Just that it was flavourless in general.

[dracpanzer]

I prefer giving them a rosarius and power weapon. Two special/heavy weapon slots set up but allow them to take the protectiva or eviscerator as a special. Then allow a chirurgeon and simulacrum as a squad upgrade.

 

For Acts of Faith allow them to use the Acts of the other Sister units, one each turn, simulacrum allows a second each turn. With the stat difference and only the 4 plus invuln I dont see why they wouldnt be cheaper than honor guard.

[*Furyou Miko]

The unit you're suggesting with a simulacrum would have both ignores cover and shred, or possibly preferred enemy, on every single shooting attack until it wanted to charge, at which point it would have preferred enemy and spirit of the martyr.

 

... anti-infantry Celestian squad with Shred and Rending. Ouch.

[Teetengee]

Just a note, the new faq will probably make buying multiple meltabombs mostly useless.

[CaptainHelion]

 

It's bland as in it's not especially Sororitas. It's just the most basic method of giving a 2+ save in the Imperium. There's nothing more to it conceptually.

Well, I tried

You did. Arty armour is just Power Armour Except Betterer, regardless of whose army it's in.

[dracpanzer]

Multiple Acts a turn, Would be fun!  If  you want to limit the list that's fine, but being veterans they should have access to more than just one or two basic Acts.  You could also go the way of just allowing one per turn with a re-roll from the simulacrum.  Built in laud hailer I guess.

[Blackarmor_redtruth]

On the whole I feel that many of the Sister squads that are suppose to be elite of sorts (celestians and seraphim) should retain their training as line sisters and keep ObSec. And I do like those hymns for them, and maybe give other basic sister squads within say 12" a +1 to get their AoF once per game as they try to live up to the splendid glory that are the celestians.

[Arkaniss]

No, CaptainHelion did (to whom I was responding) but if you feel that it was directed at you then I suppose you did agree with him Miko ;)

 

Imperial Armies share many vehicles, armour and weapons. It's both logical and sensible. I'm fine with it as long as they also still have their own unique things to go with it, as long as it suits the army. Maybe giving Celestians AA is a step towards making them more useful in conjunction with other more Sister-flavour things? This thread is about discussing the problem and no one idea is more valid than another.

[taikishi]

I prefer giving them a rosarius and power weapon. Two special/heavy weapon slots set up but allow them to take the protectiva or eviscerator as a special. Then allow a chirurgeon and simulacrum as a squad upgrade.

 

For Acts of Faith allow them to use the Acts of the other Sister units, one each turn, simulacrum allows a second each turn. With the stat difference and only the 4 plus invuln I dont see why they wouldnt be cheaper than honor guard.

 

I'm going to further echo Miko-sama's opinion that this is a "bad idea".

 

Said unit firing bolters; table can be read as follows (left to right):

* T = Target's Toughness

* %W = % to wound w/o acts

* %S = % to wound with Shred

* %R = % to Rend with Shred

 

T ---- %W ------ %S ------ %R

3 ---- 0.67 ---- 0.88 ---- 0.22

4 ---- 0.50 ---- 0.75 ---- 0.25

5 ---- 0.33 ---- 0.56 ---- 0.28

6 ---- 0.17 ---- 0.31 ---- 0.31

7 ---- 0.17 ---- 0.31 ---- 0.31

8+ --- 0.00 ---- 0.00 ---- 0.31

 

Because statistical averages don't come into play until there's a large number of repetitions, I'm going to do an example of 1000 Celestians firing at 1000 Space Marines.

 

No acts

1000 * 2/3 hit = 667

667 * 1/2 wound = 334

334 * 1/3 failed saves = 111 dead Marines

 

Shred only

1000 * 2/3 hit = 667

667 * 0.75 wounds = 500

500 * 1/3 failed saves = 167 dead Marines

 

Rending only

1000 * 2/3 hit = 667

667 * 1/3 wound with save = 222 wounds

667 * 1/6 wound without save = 111 dead marines

222 * 1/3 failed saves + 111 auto-dead = 74+111 = 185 dead marines

 

Rending + Shred

1000 * 2/3 = 666

667 * .5 wounds with saves = 334 wounded

667 * .25 wounds without saves = 167 dead

334 * 1/3 + 167 = 111 + 167 = 288 dead

 

So combining those two acts will net you the ability to kill almost twice as many Space Marines as Rending or Shred alone and will net you almost three times as many kills as shooting at them without any acts.

 

Sounds as bit broken to me.

 

Note: I didn't even include Rapid Fire range in this post. So if you're within 12", those Celestians will kill almost 2/3 of the Space Marines in one round of firing.

[*Furyou Miko]

... How do they work out against a Wraithknight or Riptide?

[sedibear]

My personal preference would be the storm shields. The Ecclessiarchy has access to it, the codex has Crusaders, so I guess it makes sense.

 

Hell, a Sororitas crusader unit with an act of faith might be a great Celestian rework.

[Teetengee]

I think artificer armour would be a good option, particularly since sisters armour is supposed to be pretty ornate and well made by artisans.

Would Artificer Armour+ War Hymns be a small enough change to make them a useful unit? or would they need an assault transport to go along with that? or....

 

(smash +an innate 2+ save sounds like it could work pretty well and do something no other sisters unit does, might require giving them a rerollable invuln or a boost to it as discussed before though)

[Servant of Dante]

I'll be incorporating some of these ideas into an update of my previous write up

 

I like the artificer armour idea, but does it make sense when even a canoness doesn't have access to it?

Edit: remember, I'm shooting for a version that fits naturally into the existing codex. Storm shields are ok because they already exist in the dex, and artificer armour would be something I might be ok with adding even though it isn't already in the codex.

I definitely like the storm shield idea.

[dracpanzer]

 

I prefer giving them a rosarius and power weapon. Two special/heavy weapon slots set up but allow them to take the protectiva or eviscerator as a special. Then allow a chirurgeon and simulacrum as a squad upgrade.

For Acts of Faith allow them to use the Acts of the other Sister units, one each turn, simulacrum allows a second each turn. With the stat difference and only the 4 plus invuln I dont see why they wouldnt be cheaper than honor guard.

 

I'm going to further echo Miko-sama's opinion that this is a "bad idea".

 

----snip a lot of math----

 

So combining those two acts will net you the ability to kill almost twice as many Space Marines as Rending or Shred alone and will net you almost three times as many kills as shooting at them without any acts.

 

Sounds as bit broken to me.

 

Note: I didn't even include Rapid Fire range in this post. So if you're within 12", those Celestians will kill almost 2/3 of the Space Marines in one round of firing.

All that math is meaningless since a unit can only use one act of faith in any given phase. My suggestion though was that Celestians should have access to more than one Act of Faith, their experience and faith would certainly seem to warrant it.

 

You could remove the ability to use two in one turn (rules disallow two in the same phase) if you like. I do think it would be a nice difference for Celestians to use Acts of Faith more than once or twice a game. The notion of two a turn was simply a quick substitution for the simulacrum which would become useless if the celestians were to get the ability.

 

Find some other purpose for a simulacrum (or give them an entirely different relic upgrade) in a Celestial squad and the problem goes away.

 

Personally I prefer a rosarius save rather than artificer armor. To me it harkens back to the 2ed sisters who could get a Rosarius on almost every character.

[taikishi]

One error in my post above - S4 can't wound T8 without Rending and had Shred (only) as capable of wounding. This has been corrected.

 

Since you asked, Miko...

 

1200 Celestians vs. 1200 wounds worth of Wraithknights (120 Wraithknights). No rapid fire.

 

No acts

Incapable of harming

 

Shred only

Still incapable of harming

 

Rending only

1200 * 2/3 hit = 800

800 * 1/6  rending hits = 133 wounds

133 * 2/3 failed Scattershield saves = 89

89 * 2/3 failed FNP saves = 59 wounds inflicted, or about 10 dead Wraithknights

 

1200*2/3*1/6*2/3*2/3 = 59.259

 

 

Rending + Shred

1200 * 2/3 hits = 800

800 * 1/6 rending before shred = 133 wounds

800 * 5/6 * 1/6 rending re-rolls from Shred = 800 * 5/36 = 111 wounds

244 * 2/3 failed Scattershield = 163

163 * 2/3 failed FNP = 109 wounds inflicted, or ~18 dead Wraithknights

 

(1200*2/3*1/6+1200*2/3*5/6*1/6)*2/3*2/3 = 108.641

 

-----------

 

1000 Celestians vs 1000 wounds of Riptides (200 Riptides). No rapid fire.

 

No acts

1000 * 2/3 hits = 667

667 * 1/6 wounds = 111

111 * 1/6 failed saves = 18, or almost 4 dead Riptides

 

1000*2/3*1/6*1/6 = 18.518

 

 

Shred only

1000 * 2/3 = 667

667 * 1/6 wounds = 111

667 * 5/6 * 1/6 Shred re-rolls = 92

(111+92) * 1/6 failed saves = 34, or about 7 dead Riptides

 

(1000*2/3*1/6+1000*2/3*5/6*1/6)*1/6 = 33.950

 

 

Rending only

1000 * 2/3 = 667

667 * 1/6 wounds = 111

111 * 2/3 failed invul = 74, or about 15 dead Riptides

 

1000*2/3*1/6*2/3 = 74.074

 

 

Shred + Rending

1000 * 2/3 = 667

667 * 1/6 wounds = 111

667 * 5/6 * 1/6 Shred re-rolls = 92

(111+92) * 2/3 failed invul = 135, or about 27 dead Riptides

 

(1000*2/3*1/6+1000*2/3*5/6*1/6)*2/3 = 135.802