Reworking Celestians!

[taikishi]

One last one because I'm procrastinating at work...

 

Same Celestians firing Flamers... >.>

 

1200 Celestians vs 1200 Space Marines

 

No acts

1200 * 1/2 wound = 600

600 * 1/3 failed saves = 200 dead Marines

 

Shred only

1200 * 0.75 wounds = 800

800 * 1/3 failed saves = 267 dead Marines

 

Rending only

1200 * 1/3 wound with save = 400 wounds

1200 * 1/6 wound without save = 200 dead marines

400 * 1/3 failed saves + 200 auto-dead = 133+200 = 333 dead Marines

 

Rending + Shred

1200 * .5 wounds with saves = 600 wounded

1200 * .25 wounds without saves = 300 dead

600 * 1/3 + 300 = 200 + 300 = 500 dead Marines

 

-------------

 

1200 Celestians vs 1200 wounds of Wraithknights

 

Rending only

1200 * 1/6  rending wouns = 200 wounds

200 * 2/3 failed Scattershield saves = 133

133 * 2/3 failed FNP saves = 89 wounds inflicted, or about 15 dead Wraithknights

 

 

Rending + Shred

1200 * 1/6 rending before shred = 200 wounds

1200 * 5/6 * 1/6 rending re-rolls from Shred = 1200 * 5/36 = 167 wounds

367 * 2/3 failed Scattershield = 245

245 * 2/3 failed FNP = 163, or about 27 dead Wraithknights

 

-------------

 

1200 Celestians vs 1200 wounds of Riptides

 

No acts

1200 * 1/6 wounds = 200

200 * 1/6 failed saves = 33, or about 7 dead Riptides

 

Shred only

1200 * 1/6 + 1200 * 5/36 = 367 wounds

367 * 1/6 = 61, or about 12 dead Riptides

 

Rending only

1200 * 1/6 = 200

200 * 2/3 failed invul = 133, or about 22 dead Riptides

 

Rending + Shred

1200 * 1/6 + 1200 * 5/36 = 367 wounds

367 * 2/3 failed invul = 245 wounds, or about 49 dead Riptides

[Servant of Dante]

NEW VERSION!

 

Celestian Squad............................................................................................................................................. 80 points

 

Celestian WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 3 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+ Infantry

Celestian Superior WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 3 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+ Infantry (character)

 

Unit Composition: 4 Celestians and 1 Celestian Superion

 

Wargear:

• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Boltgun
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades

Special Rules:

• Act of Faith
• Boundless Devotion
• Glorious Harmonies
• Objective Secured
• Shield of Faith

Acts Of Faith:

• Emperor’s Fist
• Righteous Wrath

Options:

• May include up to five additional Celestians 16 pts/model
• One Celestian may take a Simulacrum Imperialis 10 pts
• Up to three other Celestians may take one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list.
• Any model may replace their Boltgun with a Storm Shield 5 pts/model
• The Celestian Superior may take melta bombs 5 pts
• The Celestian Superior may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
• The unit may select a Rhino or Immolator as a Dedicated Transport.

Boundless Devotion: Any model with this special rule and the Shield of Faith special rule has a 5+ invulnerable save.</p>

 

Glorious Harmonies: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule can take a Leadership test at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat. If the test is successful, choose one of the following war hymns to immediately take effect.

The Emperor Protects: The unit re-rolls all failed armour and invulnerable saves until the end of the phase.

The Emperor’s Strength: All models in the unit have the Smash special rule until the end of the phase.

The Righteousness of the Emperor: The unit re-rolls all failed rolls To Wound until the end of the phase.

 

Acts of Faith: The Celestian Squad has two Acts of Faith, each of which may be used once each battle. A Simulacrum Imperialis allows a single Act of Faith of your choice to be used a second time. If the model with the Simulacrum Imperialis is removed as a casualty, the Celestian Squad may attempt no further Acts of Faith in that battle. They are still subject to the limit of using one Act of Faith each phase.

 

Emperor’s Fist: One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in your Shooting phase. If successful, all models in the Celestians’ unit gain the Fleet and Relentless special rules until the end of the current phase.

Righteous Wrath: One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in your Shooting phase. If successful, the Celestians’ unit may fire twice in this Shooting phase, and may select a different target each time.

CHANGES

Removed MB option for whole squad due to FAQ (superior option returned)

Added Storm Shield option

 

Remember that Glorious Harmonies is War Hymns, just rewritten to work with a squad.

 

I would appreciate any comments you have, especially with regards to points values and the acts of faith. Personally, I'm not a fan of giving them other units' AoFs. Also, do they still need Artificer Armour or something else like that? Again, I'm not sure Celestians should get it if a Canoness can't.

[Teetengee]

Looks like they will play a lot like possessed do.

[Servant of Dante]

Looks like they will play a lot like possessed do.

I don't honestly know how possessed play, except that they are bad. Still an improvement over the current celestians. Plus possessed don't have as much daka or faith, but they do have a 5++

 

Either way, please elaborate.

[Teetengee]

They have close combat bonuses that vary during the game, and 3+/5++. The reasons possessed are bad you mostly avoid though, points, lack of frag grenades, and lack of cc weapons.

[Servant of Dante]

They have close combat bonuses that vary during the game, and 3+/5++. The reasons possessed are bad you mostly avoid though, points, lack of frag grenades, and lack of cc weapons.

Sisters of Battle - Better than Chaos

[*Furyou Miko]

Sisters are better than Chaos, gameplay wise. In general at the moment.

[L30n1d4s]

@Servant of Dante,

 

Looks quite good, balanced, competitive, but not over the top "auto-take" good. Only two small tweaks I would suggest:

 

1 - Instead of having Storm Shields replace Bolters for +5 points, just allow Celestians to take Stormshields "straight up" (i.e. not replacing any War Gear) for +10 points. That is how it is done in other Codexes (i.e. for Vanguard, Command Squads, DA Vets, etc.) and I think it is reasonable for Celestians. This way, they still get their Bolter, but also still have the drawback of never getting +1A for an extra CCW.

 

 

2 - Instead of allowing Celestians to take 3 Special/Heavy Weapons, change it to allow them to take 3 Special, Heavy, OR Close Combat weapons. This would allow you to customize their squad for whatever duty you require and, kind of like Wolf Guard for SW, reflects their status as the elite Veterans of the army who have access to "entire" armory.

 

Thus, if you wanted to focus on CC, you could take 3 Power Mauls on the Celestians, plus another Maul on the Superior, and then use the "Emperor's Strength" Glorious Harmony to gain 16 x S5 AP2 attacks at I3 on the charge. Alternately, if you want to focus on shooting, then give the Squad Storm Shields and Special Weapons which, combined with their Acts of Faith, should make them a resilient and potent little "assassin squad (i.e. 6 melta shots, or 6 Heavy Flamer templates in a single turn, for example)

[Servant of Dante]

@Servant of Dante,

 

Looks quite good, balanced, competitive, but not over the top "auto-take" good. Only two small tweaks I would suggest:

 

1 - Instead of having Storm Shields replace Bolters for +5 points, just allow Celestians to take Stormshields "straight up" (i.e. not replacing any War Gear) for +10 points. That is how it is done in other Codexes (i.e. for Vanguard, Command Squads, DA Vets, etc.) and I think it is reasonable for Celestians. This way, they still get their Bolter, but also still have the drawback of never getting +1A for an extra CCW.

 

 

2 - Instead of allowing Celestians to take 3 Special/Heavy Weapons, change it to allow them to take 3 Special, Heavy, OR Close Combat weapons. This would allow you to customize their squad for whatever duty you require and, kind of like Wolf Guard for SW, reflects their status as the elite Veterans of the army who have access to "entire" armory.

 

Thus, if you wanted to focus on CC, you could take 3 Power Mauls on the Celestians, plus another Maul on the Superior, and then use the "Emperor's Strength" Glorious Harmony to gain 16 x S5 AP2 attacks at I3 on the charge. Alternately, if you want to focus on shooting, then give the Squad Storm Shields and Special Weapons which, combined with their Acts of Faith, should make them a resilient and potent little "assassin squad (i.e. 6 melta shots, or 6 Heavy Flamer templates in a single turn, for example)

1. I thought SS was supposed to replace a weapon since you have to hold it in your hand. I say the VV in my BA dex could just take them, but I think that's silly. I'll make the change for consistency though.

 

2. I had them all with CCW access, but Miko pointed out that they really didn't need it since they can ALL get smash with Glorious Harmonies. While I don't think they need CCW access, I would be interested in further discussion.

 

Just to reiterate: I'm trying to create something that satisfies the most sisters players, while fitting organically into the 'dex and not being OP. I'm also trying to maintain their generalist focus while still being useful. Obviously, in the end this is primarily what I want out of Celestians, but I want these rules to make sense to the most people possible.

[Ficinus]

The only thing I'd be worried about with that version of Celestians is that they might be a bit overpowered in close combat if combined with two priests, one with Litanies of Faith.  The entire unit would have smash, re-roll to wound, and re-roll for their 3+ invulnerable saves, and on the first round of combat they would re-roll to hit too.  There would still be the issue of getting them into combat, though.

[*Furyou Miko]

All of that is true, however - they're also still only S3/T3, and parts of that are from other units that have their own points cost (which has already been balanced to take into account attaching them to units of DCA, Crusaders, and hopefully Assault Terminators).

 

All we've done is bring them somewhat into line with assault termies - AP2 and a 3++, but at S3/I3 instead of S8/I1, and a 3+ instead of a 2+. So slightly more fragile, slightly less offensive power, but faster on the draw (but most assault units are going to be I4+, so I3 and I1 are basically the same).

[Servant of Dante]

Base point values per model can be adjusted too.

[Teetengee]

All of that is true, however - they're also still only S3/T3, and parts of that are from other units that have their own points cost (which has already been balanced to take into account attaching them to units of DCA, Crusaders, and hopefully Assault Terminators).

 

All we've done is bring them somewhat into line with assault termies - AP2 and a 3++, but at S3/I3 instead of S8/I1, and a 3+ instead of a 2+. So slightly more fragile, slightly less offensive power, but faster on the draw (but most assault units are going to be I4+, so I3 and I1 are basically the same).

At half the cost. Which should make them actually usable.

[Drider]

One of the things i find sisters lack are a decent anchor unit that doesn't fold instantly the moment someone decides that's what he wants to kill (short of a blob squad of BSS with jacobus) and a decent shock troop that can cause a threat if not dealt with quickly. How about a rework to Celestians that makes them a unit that can fill either of those rolls i.e. being a decent stand offish dakka unit with decent staying power or an in your face lock you in combat unit.

 

so how about something like this:

same stat line and the same upgrade options.

deepstrike via teleport.

equipped with a stormbolter as standard weapon

Storm shields or Rosariu for decent invul

with an AoF that lets them shoot and run/run and shoot and/or assault the turn they arrive from DSR

[Servant of Dante]

One of the things i find sisters lack are a decent anchor unit that doesn't fold instantly the moment someone decides that's what he wants to kill (short of a blob squad of BSS with jacobus) and a decent shock troop that can cause a threat if not dealt with quickly. How about a rework to Celestians that makes them a unit that can fill either of those rolls i.e. being a decent stand offish dakka unit with decent staying power or an in your face lock you in combat unit.

 

so how about something like this:

same stat line and the same upgrade options.

deepstrike via teleport.

equipped with a stormbolter as standard weapon

Storm shields or Rosariu for decent invul

with an AoF that lets them shoot and run/run and shoot and/or assault the turn they arrive from DSR

Teleporting deep strike is only possible with terminator armour as far as I know.

 

I'd rather not give them all storm bolters, but it is an option. The real advantage there is the Assault weapon status, and I guess if the whole squad has them its nice for enemies in the 12-24" range. Not the same thing, but my re-write allows 3 special/heavy weapons in any combination . . .

 

They can already get storm shields in my re-write.

 

I don't like units that break the no charging from reserves rule. One or two exceptions is OK, but it's such a core rule that I personally don't think everyone should have a way to break it (I'm looking at you, Space Marine).

 

Thanks for the comment!

[Drider]

 

Teleporting deep strike is only possible with terminator armour as far as I know.

 

You mean apart from necrons, eldar, orks, daemons and non-terminator GKs? Not to mention a few things which while on the table can teleport move and count as having entered from DSR (Nemesis dreadknight for one).

 

I agree that breaking the no charging from reserves rule is a bit of a sketchy thing to do but these are the times that we live in. Although i do think tying it to an AoF you have to test for is a lot less sketchy than making it a flat line rule. not to mention that a good roll on the Wulfen table lets SW T1 charge... so that's a thing again. oh yeah and the new SM psychic powers let T1 charges happen again. In comparison a T2/T3/T4 charge from DSR is not nearly as bad.

[Servant of Dante]

 

 

Teleporting deep strike is only possible with terminator armour as far as I know.

 

You mean apart from necrons, eldar, orks, daemons and non-terminator GKs? Not to mention a few things which while on the table can teleport move and count as having entered from DSR (Nemesis dreadknight for one).

 

I agree that breaking the no charging from reserves rule is a bit of a sketchy thing to do but these are the times that we live in. Although i do think tying it to an AoF you have to test for is a lot less sketchy than making it a flat line rule. not to mention that a good roll on the Wulfen table lets SW T1 charge... so that's a thing again. oh yeah and the new SM psychic powers let T1 charges happen again. In comparison a T2/T3/T4 charge from DSR is not nearly as bad.

 

Yeah. I guess. The teleporting is an option, just not one I want in a SoB codex on a power armoured unit. Just my opinion of course. In the Imperium, the only army with non-termis that teleport are the Grey Knights (unless there's something else neither of us is thinking of) and they're special snowflakes anyway. Sorry for missing that.

 

Again, just because other armies do it doesn't mean I want sisters to do it. I really enjoy how sisters are general not a part of the convoluted allies/formations  that have taken over 40k. Not that formations shouldn't exist, of course, most people love them, I just don't so much.

 

That being said, Celestians could have an AoF that let them charge the turn they entered from reserves regardless of how the entered . . .

[*Furyou Miko]

I disagree entirely with the concept that Sisters don't have a shock unit that has to be dealt with quickly. Dominions are the perfect example of just such a unit. If you don't kill them before they get into range, they will obliterate something you really don't want obliterating.

[Drider]

I should have phrased my initial comment better. Dominions are spectacular at what they do, but I rarely have seen/heard of them being used with anything but the melta setup as flamers negate their AoF and stormbolters are meh.

 

With my Celstians suggestion I was kind of aiming for a general purpose unit that is strong defensively but with enough poking power to not be ignored. I was thinking you could either go for some F/HF DS action with more staying power than Seraphim. Or you could take a HB and sit back be the hard point in a gun line. Or take a squad of 10 and keep that melee deathstar locked in combat for most of the game. 

 

Or even use them as Canoness Bodyguards

[Servant of Dante]

I should have phrased my initial comment better. Dominions are spectacular at what they do, but I rarely have seen/heard of them being used with anything but the melta setup as flamers negate their AoF and stormbolters are meh.

 

With my Celstians suggestion I was kind of aiming for a general purpose unit that is strong defensively but with enough poking power to not be ignored. I was thinking you could either go for some F/HF DS action with more staying power than Seraphim. Or you could take a HB and sit back be the hard point in a gun line. Or take a squad of 10 and keep that melee deathstar locked in combat for most of the game. 

 

Or even use them as Canoness Bodyguards

Minus the deep strike part, I think we may have achieved that here.