Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Fine day to you Liber. This topic is in regards to a recent post and subsequent conversation that took place in the Liber Surgery thread, a small part of which touched on the role of Chapter Serfs (here and here) and is something I'd like to expand upon. Ideally I'd like to come to a community consensus in the same way that - in the past at least - the Liber mostly agreed that the 1000 marine myth was in fact, mostly that, and the adoption of Training Cadre's for chapters was a logical step forward in terms of IA creation. What I want to address here is how the Liber feels about Chapter Serfs. As far as I've read over the years, there has been precious little stated as fact or even fiction on the makeup and role of Chapter Serfs, whether as a blanket statement or specific example. In many pieces of GW sponsored artwork you see individual Astartes being attended to, whether for their arms and armour or the caring for the body of a battle-brother, by diminutive or simply cloaked and shrouded smaller individuals. Neither is it stated just what these individuals are classed as. I've read in perhaps one place - now I'll forewarn the statement to follow, this was read years ago from a place I cannot source in the slightest so ware the reader as to the veracity of what I'm about to say - that Chapter Serfs were mostly made up of failed initiates. As such the vast majority of them would likely be exceedingly well conditioned and trained, enough to rival and likely superior to the elite of the Imperial Guard just by physical supremacy, even if not by true veterancy of conflict. In my own Blazing Sons IA I posited the fact that, due to the nature of that chapter in it's culture and how it distributed its strength, dispersing themselves throughout their sector and beyond in smaller and smaller groups to assist in whatever wars were pressing at the time, the Chapter Serfs would act as traditional retainers for the warriors, fighting with them and assisting them as needed. On the other side of the same coin, my Storm Riders IA doesn't as yet mention Chapter Serfs at all - similarly to most IA's - and probably never will. It's generally accepted that the roles of the Chapter Serfs, so far as I've seen, are many and varied: 1. The maintenance and upkeep of any fortress or facility held by the Chapter. 2. Crewing Astartes ships and defenses. Acting as ships crew, marines, Planetary Defense Forces and so on. It's also not clear how well regarded, if at all these indentured men are by their Astartes masters. Many chapters would simply ignore their presence, if not outright mistreat them as their deserved servants and menials. Others such as the Salamanders would likely treat them with a modicum of dignity and respect. There doesn't seem to be a common theme to their treatment - though there doesn't need to be - to use as a yardstick to how you could if you so chose, use them in your own chapter. What I'd like to see in this thread would be the citing of sources, the discussion of the pros and cons to their treatment and duties. It seems like it would be crazy not to explore yet another path of character development for your potential chapters. How fitting would it be for your overzealous Marines Malevolent-alikes to be betrayed by their own 'slaves' due to their eternal mistreatment of them? The only thing I'll ask for in terms of guidelines for posting would be as few one or two line posts as possible. This thread is for discussion, not platitudes. So...... Thoughts, anyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Aquilifer Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 It would be an interesting viewpoint to query if - and indeed how - the powers-that-be would go about surveying the total strength of a chapter's serfs. If a chapter is to have "one thousand" battle-brothers - and accepting for the many cases in which over-strength chapters are allowed to remain in existence - how many supporting "human" staff are they regulated to have? - What is the margin of give - if there is some sort of number regulation - between a chapter whose vehicles (gunships, tanks, etc) are piloted/driven by marines and those which are manned by serfs? - Are serfs simply the "support crew" of the chapter itself (including or excluding the slave crews of the ships) or do they also encompass the PDF/native population who serve the chapter and, again, how would an Inquisitor or such-like be able to define a difference? - How easy is it to separate between a chapter who utilise a lot of serfs for all of the non-fighting roles (maintenance, planetary patrol, scouting, building, manufacturing etc) and one which is, for want of a better word, army-building. The creation of a well-equipped, well-lead and fanatically loyal army is bad news to the Imperium, but the added caveat of it being a private one? - And leading on from that, when does creating a strong supporting element of serfs (because marines cannot be expected to do all the fighting) turn in to the creation of a potentially threatening separate force? Going on from the suggestion of a serf "revolt". Would the serfs, I guess going by the culture of the chapter, not generally undergo the same - or, of course, a similar vein of - indoctrination as the marines. It would be a prudent port of call in order to keep order. Yet, if it were to happen, would it be as simple as a mass revolt or would it take a more sinister turn? Drawing parallels from the American and Caribbean plantations, the serfs could start small (slowing down their work, producing poorer quality weaponry, requiring commands to be given a second time etc) and as the marines started to clamp down on the "defective" elements (mind-wiping, turning in to complete servitors, "disappearances", redeployment to gun crews on the warships etc) the serfs started to increase the resistance (sabotage, theft, dispersal of marine equipment and secrets to locals etc) until eventually the chapter itself starts to grind to a halt as the marines impose harsher and harsher rules on the serfs and the serfs struggle under the yoke, even as their numbers dwindle to nothing. - In this event, what does the chapter do? Do they blame the natives from which they got the serfs - thus beginning purges - or do they go out in search of outward answers - when the truth is that they are the problem themselves? As for IAs, the extent to which serfs are used - and hence, the number of them - should probably be evidence enough for the total number of serfs and their duties to be far wider in scope that the marines themselves. A chapter which is very "elitist" - as such using serfs for basically everything - and positioned on a homeworld that is expecting an invasion in the near future - warranting the expansion of a "serf army" - is going to have a far greater magnitude of serfs than a chapter which is fleet-based and has become renowned for individual efficiency of the marines - as in the marine takes personal responsibility for their own equipment. Yeah, it is a very good subject to look in to for fleshing out the role and image of our chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4388579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Only notable chapter serfs that came into my mind: Kaerls Besides them, only a few named but nothing larger groups. My own Storm Riders' serfs are descendants of three Aukkajan tribes which pledged their service to them during the Horus Heresy. Much like Hawaiin Kaerls. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4388603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasus Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 In Andy Similie's (forgot how to spell it) Sons of Wrath story on the Flesh Tearers it shows that the Flesh Tearers or at least the Scouring era brethren looked down on serfs as weak slaves In Nick Kyme's Salamander series the serfs are treated with respect, especially the brander-priests who share a bond with the brother they brand, this was not universal more of a general rule. Captain Drakgaard for example never speaks to his priest. In one novel we see serfs responsible for repelling a boarding action, and it's suggested that under normal circumstances they would've been amongst the best. In Rynn's World, serfs are treated with respect, the Chapter Master Pedro Kantor sharing a close bond with his old personal serf. In this, if I remember rightly, both the old serf and a cook are failed aspirants. One is bitter and bullies aspirants, the other is nice. In Blood of Asaheim, the fenrisian serfs are treated with respect but recognised as subservient to the Space Wolves. They're shown to be tough and capable when they survive in a zone deemed too dangerous for Imperial Guard. There's probably more canon examples of how certain Chapters react to those who essentially keep the Chapter going, but my memory fails me In my own Chapter, the Sacred Brethren, there are three types of serf. The first is the Comites, they are the personal servants to each brother, responsible for the upkeep of their personal gear not stored in the Armoury and the general support of each Brother. Each promotion grants the right to have more Comites. The second are the Beneficiari, who undertake all the administrative and bureaucratic work that the Chapter needs doing. The last are the Conquisitors, responsible for the Aspirants. The Aspirants are unfit for Comites and so are drilled, trained and generally kept by the Conquisitors. Conquisitors are also responsible for assisting the Chaplains with bringing in new recruits and maintaining links with the feudal factions on their recruitment world, ensuring that the human tithe to the Chapter is kept. Comites are often treated with the utmost respect, but it is down to the actual Brother they are attached to. Beneficiari are often overlooked, either seen as servitors or not seen at all. The Conquisitors have a mixed reception, often made up of failed aspirants some of these serfs are cruelly bitter towards Aspirants, earning them enemies when the Aspirans ascend to full Brother. Many Brothers are taught not to be petty enough to be cruel back, instead pitying those who failed. Some Conquisitors are respected as they keep the links between the Chapter and the communities new Aspirants are drawn from. In canon there's clearly mixed feelings about how serfs are treated, all are seen as subservient but the level of civility and respect that comes with the role varies widely. In terms of new Chapters, I think we all have free rein on this wide scale. That's my take anyway :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4388673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 The failed initiates of the Black Templars all run ahead of them knocking two halves of a coconut together and carry all of their spare kit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4388694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Three Space Marine Battle novels included Chapter serf perspectives: Rynn's World, which included a failed aspirant as a prominent serf among the Crimson Fists, Battle for the Fang, which gave some insight on the kaerls of the Space Wolves, as its own self-sustaining population, and Legion of the Damned, which showed an example of how the serfs of the Excoriators inherit their tasks down a family line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4388919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 So is the definition of the chapter serfs left entirely up to the author in question? Or do we have a set of guidelines and concepts that would be easier or more convincing for the writer to use in touching upon the serfs in any given chapter? If you had any advice to give or criticism to level at for the use of Chapter Serfs in an IA, what would it be? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4389476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasus Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 The opinion in which the Astartes regard the serfs is left to the author it would seem. The capacity of their role is less open to interpretation I think. The serfs seem to universally serve the Astartes, they are always lesser and are always subservient. We've seen some who share personal bonds with their masters, but it's still their masters, they still do the menial stuff so the warriors can train and fight. The only instance where they fight seems to be in defense of Chapter property, such as a fortress monastery or ship. I mean you always play around with what they're exactly in charge of, for example I've seen somewhere that in the Novamarines there's a lot of serfs attending the Librarius, while in others no one outside the Librarians can enter. The Librarius, not the inner sanctum of the Librarium, or whatever way round it is now. I've seen serfs master Chapter ships in some and only Astartes commanding the ships in others. The actual level of authority and how separate they are from the genhanced marines seems flexible. But the subservience of it seems less open. I think the recruitment, attitudes and freedoms of the serfs is also open to whimsical fancies. In terms of them stepping out of this role, I think Huron expanded his into the Tyrant's Legion didn't he? I mean as well as local Regiments as well. So there's one example. But that was regarded as just one more crime in an attempt to grow in power. I'd say any attempt to militarise the serfs, while logical, could be seen as a similar heresy. Not only would you have to increase their numbers so that the menial stuff still gets done, you'd have to increase it again for all the logistics and support the pseudo-guard would need to operate alongside their Astartes comrades. Soon it'd expand into a modern Expeditionary Fleet. Could be viewed as empire building. The Ultramarines already have an empire, but their serfs don't fight as far as I know, they instead raise actual Militarum Regiments for the Administratum. I've tried to sidestep the Tyrant's Legion bit in the past by having close ties to a Miltarum homeworld, dragging them along when big campaigns are undertaken. Could be a route for those wanting humans and space marines forever side by side? Overall, men or mice, doesn't matter. Some are fierce hardy fighters serving their chapter by guarding ships and maintaining armouries, others are little more than sentient servitors fulfilling the roles that are beneath the space marines themselves. There's a wide scale of what the actual people are like, but their roles are similar, serf is a fitting title I think. To stray too far from that would be taking a step down the road to Badab. EDIT: Serfs are a good way of hiding or showing little heresies. As mentioned there was the Tyrant's Legion, but I just remembered that the Blood Drinkers have their serfs voluntarily give blood for consumption in rituals. Any custom Chapters could similarly have rituals or rites that use or abuse the serfs, maybe in order to hide their little secret, maybe because the serfs believe in a similar if not identical culture. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4389568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzyeye01 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I think the way serfs are treated within the chapter varies depending on the view of the chapter itself. A good example would be during the blackmane series (Space Wolves) we're told that the serfes of the Space Wolves are natives recruited from Fenris and treated as their own individuals. The serfs themselves cnsider it a big honour to be fighting alongside and serving their masters in return. Another example of would be during the Flight of the Eisenstien, we see Garro being treated by a serf (His name escapes me) however it is a tradition that is disappearing as we learn from those Death Guard who didn't come from Terra. So honestly it seems to me it's really up to the author how a chapter treats its serfs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4389803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 In The Emperor's Finest, the Reclaimers' serfs' combat skills are compared favorably to the Space Marines they serve. In The Greater Good, the serfs were noted to have accompanied the Marines aboard a space hulk, and suffered casualties during that mission. Others mentioned the Space Wolves' serfs are volunteers who consider it an honor to serve the Space Marines- a sharp contrast to those the Imperial Navy pressed into its service. In contrast, the serfs of the Marines Malevolent are treated like slaves. As noted, the serfs' status depends immensely upon attitudes of the Chapter in question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322219-chapter-serfs-men-or-mice/#findComment-4391728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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