Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[Loesh]

Indeed, I was thinking precisely that myself while I wrote the post. That felt somehow... less gratuitous. Maybe it was just better writen. The Night Lords looked interesting there!

In all fairness, ADB had Curze clutching at his own throat and then collapsing into a pool of his own blood . . . whereas Gav has the Lion perform some sort of professional wrestling backbreaker upon a beaten Curze

I suppose Gav's take is more "gratuitous" (and also nit very original). Gav also shows the entire fight

Yeah, it's ironic he had to copy a move from Russ in order to look awesome

Bane*

Am I the only person who made the connection between breaking the bat and the Lion doing that to Curze?

[Corswain]

I really enjoyed it. It was one of Thorpes' best and by far the best DA book in the heresy so far (not really a difficult achievement, I know).

 

I loved the Dreadwing (We have come! We are death!) and I thought the Lion was handled pretty well. It's a fine line to walk between the paranoia, secrets, nobility and power of the Lion (and the DA in general) and I think Thorpe did a pretty good job.

 

I liked the Caliban parts too, which I didn't expect. Luther is finally a relatable character.

 

As for the batman-esque back breaking? Given that the goal was to incapacitate, not kill - I can't think of too many ways to do that with a Primarch. The back breaker makes sense and I didn't find it too jarring. The Lion comes off as pretty awesome too so I don't have any real objections

[bluntblade]

 

 

Yes, it's amazing how little this fits into the world of this period! I think there was the police officer in Nemesis who was possessed by the assassin, and Guilleman's mother (although Konor is dead).

 

Also it adds to his complaint about the Imperium stealing away the best or most skillful children - and removing their ability or interest in procreation in the process. This will have enduring economic, cultural and genetic problems for a world. Caliban is damaged! I mean perhaps Legiones Astartes can reproduce (I remember the boast of Gaunt's best friend in First and Only about his father but that was a lie - yet could LA reproduce? Or at least their sperm be saved?).

 

I've always considered this to be a notable flaw in the 40k setting, at least as far as fiction is concerned. Characters don't have wives or husbands, sons or daughters, mothers or fathers. They don't have sex, or paychecks, or vacations, or any number of things that provide story hooks or verisimilitude . For Space Marines many of those things are purposefully absent of course, but their absence isn't really explored either and that's such a missed opportunity. I'm glad that Angels of Caliban at least mentioned the effect of taking your best and brightest completely out of the gene pool, and how people might feel about that.

I'd be up for making the subject of how to build verisimilitude with Astartes its own thread, as it's something I've been grappling with a bit in my own writings.

[Mellow]

I got the distinct impression that the original Lord Cypher escaped before being killed. He also demonstrated some skills in being able to come in and out of shadows during combat. This makes me think he works with the Watchers and that he's the same "good" guy that shows up in 40k.

 

Also, the end of the book tells me that Nurgle will be the one corrupting Caliban rather than Tzeentch, right?

[DarkChaplain]

That seems likely, seeing that the Legacy of Caliban had a heavy Nurgle focus, with Ulthor and the Plagueheart and Typhon working with the Fallen and Astelan

[m0nolith]

I just finished the book.
Let me first say this;
Iv never been a fan of Gav Thorpe. I always thought he was never that good at portraying characters, but with that being said...this book was not just good, it was bloody excellent!
It's now among the top 5 of the series for me, and I can say Iv never had more "fun' going through a HH book before.
 
Although my criticism of the way he writes his characters remains true with this book, it is completely overshadowed by everything else.
 
I cant stand bolter porn, and his ability to give immensity and intensity to action was superb, all the while never resorting to the bolter pornines (no thats not a real word, sorry) that many authors do speaks volumes of his skill to write this.
 
Judging by my avatar, you can imagine I have a bias towards one character in particular, and I have to say that this portrayal of Sanguinius is probably my favorite so far in the series. He was always shown as the paragon of all that is good in the Imperium, and this book shows that sometimes he can be the exact opposite. The man can be a genocidal monster if he so wants to because the Imperium itself is not good, its a necessary (or the lesser depending how you look at it) evil, and this is what has been sorely lacking from all the portrayals of Sanguinius so far.
 
With out a doubt this book is required reading for any HH Dark Angels players out there, not because it is a good book but because it does an excellent job of explaining Dark Angel culture and what makes them the First Legion.

 

 

The void weapons, the rad bomb loaded Caestus assault rams, the pre
Legion days.

General Dreadwing awesomeness!
"We have come! We are death!"

 

 

All in all, a excellent book. He is now in my book among the top tier of BL writers and cant wait to read his next HH book!

 

TLDR;

9/10

[Chaeron]

RE: Cypher - 

 

 

Also interesting that Zahariel recognised him - I think it paves the way for 40k Cypher, definitely.

 

 

Enjoyed the book, and liked how it drew a lot of threads together! 

[Ironmonger]

I just finished reading the book aswell,

 

Spoiler coming

 

Zahariel was to me a very sympathetic character in the other books displaying a sort naivetee of a dude just trying to figure things out. His coming out (sort of) and a being duped by the caliban entity seemed sad to me.

So is Zahariel the 40k Cypher? I thought that Cypher displayed no psy abilities? Also has anyone read pandorax? How would this square with the theory that Epimetheous was actually Zahariel?

[Ironmonger]

"What if Zahariel wants to redeem himself and wants the orouborus to die, convincing Astelan to attack the Lions ships and results in the destruction of the renegade DAs and the demon?"

 

I like this theory maybe he can re-deem himself in the end. So much mystery, circles within circles

[HeritorA]

Caliban and Imperium Secundus are boring. If you check this novel from the grandeur point of view - nothing actually happened at all. That's a filler/fanservice - not a straight novel with major impact

[Ironmonger]

I suppose wanting to see how it was that the biggest legion by numbers (Ultras) never made it to the big show down on Terra is filler? Or how part of the First legion, including space marines who not only fought along side the Emperor but where the first created could turn against him is also filler. I mean we all know the ending of the story. We are just going along for the ride for the drama.

[Spinsanity]

Caliban and Imperium Secundus are boring. If you check this novel from the grandeur point of view - nothing actually happened at all. That's a filler/fanservice - not a straight novel with major impact

Sooo, what are you saying? They (BL) 'd have been better off going straight Istvaan -> Prospero -> Terra and skip (almost) everything else?

[Kelborn]

Things you might consider to avoid:

- mention anything concerning Space Wolves when HeritorA is near

- start a discussion with HeritorA about the content of the Heresy and BL's plans

- even dare to think that you can win a discussion with HeritorA, 'cause he will never stop to discuss with you

- take this post serious

- to think that this post is just a joke as you will realize that there is some truth behind it

[Guest]

Things you might consider to avoid:

- mention anything concerning Space Wolves when HeritorA is near

- start a discussion with HeritorA about the content of the Heresy and BL's plans

- even dare to think that you can win a discussion with HeritorA, 'cause we will never stop to discuss with you

- take this post serious

- to think that this post is just a joke as you will realize that there is some truth behind it

I prefer the ignore function :)...

I do wonder if we will ever know who Cypher is.

[Kelborn]

To be honest,

 

I hope we don't get to know that. GW, FW, BL should keep some things in secret.

 

Like the Sanguinator guy (don't know his actual name). Was a secret since years and now we got the definite name and character behind the mask => boring :/

[Guest]

To be honest,

 

I hope we don't get to know that. GW, FW, BL should keep some things in secret.

 

Like the Sanguinator guy (don't know his actual name). Was a secret since years and now we got the definite name and character behind the mask => boring :/

 

We have?

[IronDrake28]

Not really, we know where the title 'Sanguinor' came from. The Curze esploded that guy...but that's off topic.

 

As for this book being called 'filler' I disagree, it adds alot for the 1st Legion, and finally it seems we're leaving Imperium Secundus behind.

[Kelborn]

May I assume that we indeed have a thread which dealt with it?

 

I can't copy a link on this computer, but have a look on the second page: [Herald of Sanguinius (those who read it)] was discussed in may and it  contains the revelation of the Sanguinor.

 

Beware of spoilers!

 

*edit*

Here's the link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322184-the-herald-of-sanguinius-question-those-who-read-it/

[DarkChaplain]

I'd like there to be enough implications so one can make an educated guess in various directions, but not a clear cut answer. There needs to be mystery left, without making you feel like you don't have any ideas as to who it is and that it might be somebody utterly insignificant to the Heresy at large.

 

I wonder if, in the case of Zahariel not being Epimetheus, the spot could be taken by one of his Mistai

[HeritorA]

Things you might consider to avoid:

- mention anything concerning Space Wolves when HeritorA is near

- start a discussion with HeritorA about the content of the Heresy and BL's plans

- even dare to think that you can win a discussion with HeritorA, 'cause he will never stop to discuss with you

- take this post serious

- to think that this post is just a joke as you will realize that there is some truth behind it

points 1 and 3 are correct. Never even thought about point 2 :)

Not really, we know where the title 'Sanguinor' came from. The Curze esploded that guy...but that's off topic.

As for this book being called 'filler' I disagree, it adds alot for the 1st Legion, and finally it seems we're leaving Imperium Secundus behind.

And amen to that - it's past time to run the Gauntlet

[Tymell]

Just finished it myself, and I'm pretty happy with it overall.

 

It was definitely the best of the DA HH novels (though as has been said, that's not hard, but it's still good), it's the first time I actually enjoyed the Caliban sections, maybe even more than the Ultramar parts, and I particularly liked Luther, Astelan and the Lion himself.

 

The story was well-paced, and I liked that this is a novel which has it's share of good action, but doesn't feel like it's forcing it in because it's afraid to have too little. Unremembered Empire felt like it was obliged to have some action in the second half, regardless of how little said action really contributed to the story. Angels of Caliban feels more confident standing up on the strength of the story and characters unfolding, using action where appropriate.

 

The one part I didn't really like was the ending. Lion using Curze's visions to deduce that the Emperor is still alive is okay, though still something of a stretch, with Guilliman even pointing out how much of a leap it was, but him just conveniently forgetting his own arguments as soon as they leave his mouth. But Lion suddenly wanting to spare Curze feels very forced, without any real logical explanation. Yes, I've read the arguments in favour of it in this thread, but I still dislike it. The whole thing is based on self-fulfilling logic and/or vague predictions of a known manipulative madman, the whole point about the Emperor's assassin is open to interpretation, and even if it wasn't there's no reason why breaking Curze's prophecy will suddenly kill off the living Emperor.

 

But that's one point in an otherwise fine book. Going into it, I was concerned because Gav's HH writing can be a bit mixed, and he isn't as good at giving a legion a clear culture and identity as ADB, Abnett or Wraight. And I still don't think he did, but that's not really the purpose this book serves. It's not here to establish who the Dark Angels are, it's here to advance their existing plotlines and characters, and I feel it does this well and turns said plots and characters into something better than they were in the hands of some previous authors.

[Mellow]

So the identity of Cypher was revealed to Zaharial, but it wasn't specifically stated who it was, right?

 

Or did I miss it?

[JH79]

I wonder if, in the case of Zahariel not being Epimetheus, the spot could be taken by one of his Mistai

Part of me would be happy to think that Zahariel is not Epimetheus due to how his story ends... though saddened at the same time. His character was one of the stand out's for me making my way through the Heresy and i loved being part of his journey, somehow knowing that his fate lay 10's of thousands of years in the future with a pure heart and untainted by chaos. Now though, he seems darker and not the person i once routed for. It does beg the question of just who Epimetheus really is though, possibly someone we haven't met yet... maybe a member of the Crusader Host back on Terra yet to be introduced?

[Kelborn]

I know how you feel JH79.

I'm a bit disappointed as well about how Zahariel has developed. I'm still hoping that he gets rid of the Orobouros and redeems himself.

[JH79]

I know how you feel JH79.

I'm a bit disappointed as well about how Zahariel has developed. I'm still hoping that he gets rid of the Orobouros and redeems himself.

That is the only thing i can think that must somehow happen...there's obviously a ways to go before the siege and a lot can (and will) happen in that time. I still hope that Zahariel is one of the founding Grey Knights to be presented to the Emperor by Malcador...despite what that would mean for him as Epimetheus