Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[Corswain]

There is still a lot of wiggle room when it comes to Cypher. We have the rest of the Heresy, the Scouring and the destruction of Caliban to go through yet. Plenty of opporunities for the role to pass to others.

 

I don't think Zahariel is a Grey Knight. He's too far gone and has definitely moved into the traitor catagory.

My bet is that Epimethius is Israfael, the chief librarian who was shot and imprisoned in Fallen Angels. I have missed some audio dramas so as far as I know he is still alive. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[HaSY]

Isn't Israfael was said to be dead?

[Corswain]

It said he had a hole blown in his chest but that he was still alive and imprisoned. No mention of him after that. Could be just a loose end that's been forgotten - or it could be more! Dark Angels are fun like that. :)

[helterskelter]

There's a ships prison full of 1st company NL he's probably joined them in the ranks of forgotten loose end that have to make it to terra

[Tymell]

One of Zahariel's librarians does say that Israfael is dead, but he could be mistaken, it's not entirely clear.

[Corswain]

One of Zahariel's librarians does say that Israfael is dead, but he could be mistaken, it's not entirely clear.

Well that kills my theory... When did that happen?

[Tymell]

 

One of Zahariel's librarians does say that Israfael is dead, but he could be mistaken, it's not entirely clear.

Well that kills my theory... When did that happen?

 

 

Chapter 7, as the librarians are talking:

 

 

 

+With practice,+ Vassago answered. +With strength. These are lessons Master Israfael taught us, why do you forget them now?+

 

+Master Israefael is dead, Master Zahariel is missing.+ Brother Cartheus was the youngest and newest of their company, his talent discovered only ten years before.

 

But in Fallen Angels we had this at the end of Chapter 18:

 

 

 

Zahariel tore his gaze away from Cypher and staggered over to Israfael. The wound in his chest was grave, but he checked the Librarian's life support systems nevertheless and was surprised to find a faint reading. 'Israfael still lives, my lord,' he said. 'What shall we do with him?'

 

Lord Cypher took a step towards the fallen Librarian, his pistol still in hand. Luther stopped him with a hard glance.

 

'Summon a pair of servitors to take him to the Apothecaries,' Luther commanded. 'When he's recovered enough we'll transfer him to a cell in the Tower of Angels and see if we can convince him of the error of his ways.'

 

So it doesn't seem entirely clear whether Israfael really has died since, or whether Cartheus is mistaken/being lied to.

[Mellow]

I would take that quote as meaning he is captured and missing one of his hearts so in a much weaker state.

[rendingon1+]

Reread the novel and I came to conclusion that I kinda like the Lion. Especially his 'end justifies the means' approach (seriously THIS should be Dreadwing's motto) - he's not a guy who does things by half. And he's efficient becuse of that.

Unlike Guilliman who sees nothing wrong in leaving criminal, "compliance resistant" enclave on Maccrage because "he's not murderer". Right.  And then he dares to have a grudge against the Lion because he wiped it out. Especially after hard evidence that they were being "trained" by Kurze. Thanks to the primarchs like Guilliman it is no wonder that loyalists are constantly on the back foot.

[Corswain]

 

 

One of Zahariel's librarians does say that Israfael is dead, but he could be mistaken, it's not entirely clear.

 

Well that kills my theory... When did that happen?

 

Chapter 7, as the librarians are talking:

 

+With practice,+ Vassago answered. +With strength. These are lessons Master Israfael taught us, why do you forget them now?+

+Master Israefael is dead, Master Zahariel is missing.+ Brother Cartheus was the youngest and newest of their company, his talent discovered only ten years before.

But in Fallen Angels we had this at the end of Chapter 18:

 

Zahariel tore his gaze away from Cypher and staggered over to Israfael. The wound in his chest was grave, but he checked the Librarian's life support systems nevertheless and was surprised to find a faint reading. 'Israfael still lives, my lord,' he said. 'What shall we do with him?'

 

Lord Cypher took a step towards the fallen Librarian, his pistol still in hand. Luther stopped him with a hard glance.

 

'Summon a pair of servitors to take him to the Apothecaries,' Luther commanded. 'When he's recovered enough we'll transfer him to a cell in the Tower of Angels and see if we can convince him of the error of his ways.'

So it doesn't seem entirely clear whether Israfael really has died since, or whether Cartheus is mistaken/being lied to.

Yeah, I missed that. I could defininetly see Zahariel and Luther keeping him alive in secret though.

[helterskelter]

Reread the novel and I came to conclusion that I kinda like the Lion. Especially his 'end justifies the means' approach (seriously THIS should be Dreadwing's motto) -

So the lion is perturabo/curze/Horus/undead IH in his approach and that makes him better than robby G. That's some traitorous skills he has there.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, if you like Lion for that, then you must hate the Imperium for stopping the Night Haunter who sacrificed his mind, soul, children, and happiness to cause other people to fear him in order to bring law to the Imperium.

 

After all, his whole problem with the Emperor is that he is doing the Emperor's work only to get ridiculed, sanctioned, and judged worthy of death. He did those horrible things to end crime and bring compliance, after all.

[Mellow]

... at the cost of his sanity. Too high a price I think.

[rendingon1+]

Well, I can't recall Lion torturing children for his own amusement. If that was "Emperor's work"

 

 

Reread the novel and I came to conclusion that I kinda like the Lion. Especially his 'end justifies the means' approach (seriously THIS should be Dreadwing's motto) -

So the lion is perturabo/curze/Horus/undead IH in his approach and that makes him better than robby G. That's some traitorous skills he has there.

 

 

Ok, I don't get it. So choosing most efficient strategy/tactics/weapon at your disposal makes you... a traitor? And Illyrian terrorists/separatists hiding Curze were what if not enemies? The difference between Lion and G is that Lion did what G couldn't which is capturing Curze.

[Arkangilos]

Torturing, bombing them from orbit, what's the difference? After all, you literally just said the ends justify the means. So if the ends is to create a unified, lawless society where no one is murdered again, then torturing a child to do so is ok.

 

It's not JUST criminals living in that area. Would you bomb A Detroit because it is crime ridden? Just to get a high value terrorist?

 

The Lion isn't much better, actually I would say he's just as bad because he disobeyed a direct order, hasn't really been doing his job correctly in the first place (and largely doing his own thing), and then hides behind a facade.

 

Curze is at least honest about his intentions.

 

Plus, if people see you wiping out a whole area to get one guy, it would make your job of running the planet so much harder and become a PR nightmare.

[rendingon1+]

1.Torturing, bombing them from orbit, what's the difference? After all, you literally just said the ends justify the means. So if the ends is to create a unified, lawless society where no one is murdered again, then torturing a child to do so is ok.

 

2.It's not JUST criminals living in that area. Would you bomb A Detroit because it is crime ridden? Just to get a high value terrorist?

 

3.The Lion isn't much better, actually I would say he's just as bad because he disobeyed a direct order, hasn't really been doing his job correctly in the first place (and largely doing his own thing), and then hides behind a facade.

 

Curze is at least honest about his intentions.

 

4.Plus, if people see you wiping out a whole area to get one guy, it would make your job of running the planet so much harder and become a PR nightmare.

1. If you can't see a differenc between torturing and bombing well... it puts any soldier on a same level as rapists/sadistsic killers and other deviants. Are they the same to you? And as I said before Lion didn't torture anyone for his own perverted amusement. Or at all.

2. You do realize that EVERY legion at some point during GC have raized entire human worlds because they resisted compliance? I'm sure you have read HH6 retribution -  wht about BA "Day of Revelation". Illyrium was such a "place", for unknown reasons left alone by Guilliman. Lion merely finished what G should have done looong time ago. More than that he had Sanguinius' full support on this course of action:

 

G:‘I do not see how that excuses the razing of Illyrium. Does that not give Curze exactly the death and destruction he craves?’

Sang: ‘It brings swift end, brother,’ the emperor said firmly, returning his gaze to Guilliman. ‘The Lion is right, this should never have been an issue. We are all at fault. The excision is painful, the surgery required.’

 

Of course he overstepped the mark and broke the agreement about methods of persedcution, true. But he did what G was unable to: he tracked Curze and captured him.

 

3. Curze is honest?pleas. So if murderer admits that he's a murderer because he loves what he does ... he's just more honest than a soldier who doesn't see himself as a murderer. Is it tha same to you?

4. Yes, one guy that happens to be a traitor primarch hiding in a den of criminals. I guess it doesn't matter.  And I guess that every loyalist primarch is a monster and murderer because some military actions involve collateral damage.

[m0nolith]

You guys know this is Warhammer right?

There are no good guys here.

Everyone is a jerk.

[Arkangilos]

Doesn't matter, lol

[HaSY]

Before Deathwing is cool, there is Dreadwing.

Farith Redloss and Dreadwing definitely enjoy crushing rebellions and resistance as long as they desire. They are even more generous than Death Guard when it comes to phosphex and rad raining. No wonder Alpha Legion and Iron Hands can work well with the First Legion. 

[Mellow]

I did enjoy the fact that the First Legion were the ones that did a lot of the initial conquering on behalf of the EoM. It's almost sentimental the way they keep reminiscing about the "good old days"

 

But I agree with the post above. Practically everyone in the HH is a jerk in at least one way.

 

There's certainly no light at the end of the tunnel for Humanity. Even 10k years later.

[Kelborn]

Especially 10k years later. ;)

 

In 30K we haven't had Necs, Nids, Tau, Eldar, DE, Orks and Chaos. "Just" Orks, Eldar, DE and Chaos. :P

[DarKnight]

Could the Cypher killed by Zahariel be anyone of any real import by this time anyway? Is there anyone that would make you *gasp*

[b1soul]

Could the Cypher killed by Zahariel be anyone of any real import by this time anyway? Is there anyone that would make you *gasp*

Alpharius

[Mellow]

Cypher doesn't get killed by anyone. Well, not explicitly stated "on screen"

[Corswain]

I was a bit confused by this. Cypher was the last Knight of Lupis and Zahariel already knew that, unless the role had changed again.

In any case, he wasn't someone I really cared about and I always assumed he would be replaced at some point.

If he is dead, fine. If he's not, fine. To bring him back and make him Cypher again would be a mistake though in my opinion. At least we have some sort of investment in Zahariel.