Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[HaSY]

Even Alpharius visited Caliban as the HH Forge World Book 3 says.

[Mellow]

Are you saying Zaharial is Cypher then?

[Kelborn]

Though the statement of Alpharius visiting Caliban is one of many rumors and possible lies concerning his past. :)

[Emperor's Furor]

I loved the way the Dark Angels of 30k use a cloak of nobility and honour to hide a savagery similar to that of Death Guard and World Eaters.

[Mellow]

I would say the savagery of the Death Guard and that of the World Eaters are two quite different beasts. In fact I don't think the First Legion are savage as such but rather just prepared to do what gets results.

[Augustus]

I would say the savagery of the Death Guard and that of the World Eaters are two quite different beasts. In fact I don't think the First Legion are savage as such but rather just prepared to do what gets results.

Exactly,like their primarch.

[b1soul]

I know Forgeworld has a massive hard-on for "savage" space marines like the Carcharodons, Minotaurs, Executioners . . . but in reality, discipline trumps savagery on the battlefield, even in melee engagements

[Athrawes]

I know Forgeworld has a massive hard-on for "savage" space marines like the Carcharodons, Minotaurs, Executioners . . . but in reality, discipline trumps savagery on the battlefield, even in melee engagements

 

I think Khârn had a quote about this is Betrayer. Something like " Discipline wins wars, savagery wins fights. But win enough fights and you'll still carry the war."

 

Edit: replace savagery with 'Fury' but I think it amounts to the same thing.

[bluntblade]

Which sort of falls apart when you consider how many fights were won with discipline, but all those "savage" Chapters understand how to use their savagery for maximum effect. Especially the Minotaurs, invariably deploying as a full Chapter.

[b1soul]

I think Khârn had a quote about this is Betrayer. Something like " Discipline wins wars, savagery wins fights. But win enough fights and you'll still carry the war."

Which sort of falls apart when you consider how many fights were won with discipline, but all those "savage" Chapters understand how to use their savagery for maximum effect. Especially the Minotaurs, invariably deploying as a full Chapter.

I think we'd all agree that 40K doesn't necessarily reflect reality. It might very well be the case that in 40K, savagery beats discipline

 

... but from the perspective of historical reality, discipline craps all over savagery.

 

Discipline wins both battles and wars. At most, savagery might carry a 1 on 1 brawl or a very small scale engagement.

 

When you have two large armies squaring off on the field of battle, unit cohesion and discipline almost always trumps whatever dubious advantage is granted by "savagery"

 

The Macedonians, the Romans, the Mongols . . . all were highly disciplined and organised. Savagery hasn't carried anyone very far in our reality

[Arkangilos]

But don't forget, savagery to them isn't the same. They are still relatively disciplined.

 

And even in the storie the less desciplined ones still lost a lot more.

[Corswain]

For the Dark Angels I'd use brutal instead of savage. Try to reflect an uncaring but deliberate aggresion.

It's about whatever gets the job done, not unleashed rage.

[shandwen]

I've started to wonder if AoC is leading us towards two Cyhpers. Z being the first, and there also being a loyalist one. This could explain the sword that Chypher sometimes has and sometimes doesn't.

[rendingon1+]

For the Dark Angels I'd use brutal instead of savage. Try to reflect an uncaring but deliberate aggresion.

It's about whatever gets the job done, not unleashed rage.

Brutal and cunning.

[helterskelter]

I'm reading now. 2 pages padded out with something about we are death. In between that however, vortex everything is hilarious good fun bolter porn

[Forward Assist]

Terran Death Rays - ooooooohhhh yeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahh!

[Mellow]

I wonder how many times the word "phosphex" was written in the book. I'd imagine quite a lot!

[helterskelter]

If we made a drinking game based on the words void, death and phospex we'd be dead before chapter 10 I'm going to assume

[Sviox]

I wonder how many times the word "phosphex" was written in the book. I'd imagine quite a lot!

15. I searched.

 

Finished the book a week ago and what a lovely surprise it was! I wasn't expecting too much from Gav but this time he really nailed it. Definitely one of the best books in the series. Really like the plot and the pacing it was written with. Only grief is that the end solution on Macragge was based on quite light reasoning.

 

Any idea why Cypher tried to kill Zahariel before the book started?

[Hellath]

I loved the way the Dark Angels of 30k use a cloak of nobility and honour to hide a savagery similar to that of Death Guard and World Eaters.

And a talent for backstabbing that would a Night Lord proud :p

[Hergrmir]

I quite liked it. Definitely Gav Thorpe's best HH work in my books (I've liked his WHFB stuff but never really enjoyed the Raven Guard HH stuff).

 

I think the portrayals of the Lion, Guilliman and Curze were all quite well done. You see in Curze what happens when the ends are used as a mere veneer to justify some horrible deeds, and you see in Guilliman what can happen when one insists upon procedural rigidty, and the Lion falls in the middle there. All of those approaches have serious drawbacks, and so the moral dillema is live. I think it did a better job of treating with a longstanding philosophical question than The Last Church did with another one.

 

In any case, the surviving Illyrians are lucky that Guilliman is the galaxy's finest administrator though, or else that 10,000 dead would spiral a lot higher. Farith Redloss is a neat character. All the talk about whether Corax, the Lion, or Kurze could be different are reflected in him; the man already enjoys massacres, imagine what he'd have been like if he was in the Death Guard or the Night Lords.

 

I think the Kurze/Sanguinius comparison could have been mined a little more, though we did get a bit of that with how both of them react to their foreknowledge of how they die. I think the Kurze/Jonson setup was certainly better than the Kurze/Vulkan plot - that latter didn't really have much interesting going on, but Kurze and the Triumvirate were good foils because there are elements of him which set off the others really well. If Gav could do this level of compare and contrast with Kurze and Corax (and maybe Alpharius), I'd be thrilled, but I guess it's too late in the game for that to happen now.

 

Luther was given a good turn, too. He's a compelling figure, and it's nice to establish that he really IS a good orator in universe, but also that he understands when he'll need some psyker support. I'd hope there's a moving story for Zahariel too - he doesn't have to come out redeemed or the like, but I think Gav did a good job in portraying Luther and Astelan as both people who could justify themselves, while Zahariel doesn't quite have that. The ouroboros entity seems a bit close to Fulgrim's "a daemon did it" thing.

[Loesh]

 

I think Khârn had a quote about this is Betrayer. Something like " Discipline wins wars, savagery wins fights. But win enough fights and you'll still carry the war."

Which sort of falls apart when you consider how many fights were won with discipline, but all those "savage" Chapters understand how to use their savagery for maximum effect. Especially the Minotaurs, invariably deploying as a full Chapter.

I think we'd all agree that 40K doesn't necessarily reflect reality. It might very well be the case that in 40K, savagery beats discipline

 

... but from the perspective of historical reality, discipline craps all over savagery.

 

Discipline wins both battles and wars. At most, savagery might carry a 1 on 1 brawl or a very small scale engagement.

 

When you have two large armies squaring off on the field of battle, unit cohesion and discipline almost always trumps whatever dubious advantage is granted by "savagery"

 

The Macedonians, the Romans, the Mongols . . . all were highly disciplined and organised. Savagery hasn't carried anyone very far in our reality

 

 

I think even in 40k Discipline>Savagery. Remember that the characters in these books, especially ADB books, are flawed and don't always have a complete picture of the world.

 

Look at where the Legions wound up, and you'll find that...despite the Dominion of Fire and First War for Armageddon, the World Eaters are on the bottom rungs of both competency and cohesion. Hell even in that book the Ultramarines viciously beat the stuffing out of the World Eaters despite them having extreme advantages in firepower and numbers.

[b1soul]

You also have the issue of "biased camera"

 

The UM might be gunning down the WE in droves, but the authour's "camera" is following Khârn

 

An unwary reader might think that the WE are doing great because Khârn is killing multiple UM

[bluntblade]

You also have the issue of "biased camera"

The UM might be gunning down the WE in droves, but the authour's "camera" is following Khârn

An unwary reader might think that the WE are doing great because Khârn is killing multiple UM

I remember someone saying simolar things about the Wolves in Scars. Erroneously, I thought, but that's a matter for another book.

[b1soul]

Bjorn fights some AL...that's all I remember