Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[HeritorA]

I have to admit, when I first read "Deliverance Lost", this (the two missing primarchs) was my interpretation as well. That said, one can make a (somewhat convoluted) argument that for a being like the Emperor, who essentially bases his entire mission on his ability to see the future and guide it accordingly, there is little difference between two primarchs missing (as in not yet discovered), and missing (as in lost to his cause). I don't know if Gav intended it as such (I think the passage was supposed to be fan service creating ambiguity - similar to A D-B's passage in "The First Heretic" where the two Word Bearers are exchanging rumors), but there are definitely multiple ways to interpret it.

 

Of course, if we are talking about the Emperor's prescience in the context of him speaking to Corax, then there are other implications too. If he does not see the difference between primarchs missing due to not being found, and primarchs missing due to other factors, then how much did he really know about the coming Heresy? We also know that Alpharius ended up on Horus' side, and the second-to-last primarch ended up being expunged from records... so could the Emperor be foreseeing the fate of the primarchs not found at that time, which is where his sorrow would come from?

 

Or, it could be an honest mistake by the author, and we are trying to make sense of something that was not intended to create ambiguity. I wonder if the hardback edition of "Deliverance Lost" will in any shape or form edit said passage... because if it does, we will know the intent for sure.

It wasn't a mistake

[Volt]

 

I like that in Luther, we *finally* have a 30k or 40k character that was married, though of course no longer. In the grim darkness of the far future, protagonists definitely do not contribute to the newer generation.

 

Yes, it's amazing how little this fits into the world of this period! I think there was the police officer in Nemesis who was possessed by the assassin, and Guilleman's mother (although Konor is dead). 

 

Also it adds to his complaint about the Imperium stealing away the best or most skillful children - and removing their ability or interest in procreation in the process. This will have enduring economic, cultural and genetic problems for a world. Caliban is damaged! I mean perhaps Legiones Astartes can reproduce (I remember the boast of Gaunt's best friend in First and Only about his father but that was a lie - yet could LA reproduce? Or at least their sperm be saved?).

 

Space Marines are sterile chemically. They aren't bodily mutilated but I remember reading that a Space Marine transfused his blood with a woman to save her life in one story and it sterilized her or something.

 

 

 

 

Thorpe giving the DA fans some love

I would trade every moment of 'love' we've ever gotten from Thorpe in a heartbeat to be able to undo all the novels he's written on DA and let someone else have a crack.

 

I can't really judge without having read Angels of Caliban, but at this stage I'd say the Lion going savage and breaking Curze's back sounds awful. ADB went out of his way in Savage Weapons to show the Lion as the more skilled fighter and Curze as the better, more brutal brawler (didn't you point this out earlier in the thread b1soul?). ADB said this was his intention and this is consistent with every depiction we've ever had of the Lion (e.g. Lion vs. Russ).

 

As ever with Thorpe, any 'love' he gives is a poisoned chalice. See the abomination that is the deus ex machina device 'Tuchulcha' as well as a veritable cavalcade of bollocks that's been well documented elsewhere.

 

I don't know how AD-B feels about this, I assume it's similar since in Savage Weapons the Lion tells Curze how close he thought they were due to their upbringings, but I think the Lion is just as savage as Curze but his upbringing in the order and iron discipline, helps him mask it. I think the Lion was a Great Beast of Caliban before Luther found him TBH

 

That's utterly ridiculous, there's zero reason for a Primarch to prey upon people like an animal unless they're mustache-twirling evil. The only thing the Lion might have been doing other than hiding for dear life from all the Chaos gribblies roaming the woods is killing them instead.

[Xisor]

@Volt: children can be quite vicious anyway. Let alone super-powered, warp-infused, lonely children on a planet full of monsters...

 

I'd never considered it, but part of me likes the idea. Another parallel with Night Haunter.

[HeritorA]

@Volt: children can be quite vicious anyway. Let alone super-powered, warp-infused, lonely children on a planet full of monsters...

 

I'd never considered it, but part of me likes the idea. Another parallel with Night Haunter.

 

Indeed!

[Augustus]

But the POV of Perturabo and IIRC Curze has demonstrated that they are not "normal" children. They wake up from their pods with an incredible amount of knowledge and understanding of their environment. The Lion, originally, upon confronting Luther somehow understood that these men were different than the beasts of the forrest.

[Volt]

But the POV of Perturabo and IIRC Curze has demonstrated that they are not "normal" children. They wake up from their pods with an incredible amount of knowledge and understanding of their environment. The Lion, originally, upon confronting Luther somehow understood that these men were different than the beasts of the forrest.

Even a wild child will also know the instincts between a giant chaos mutated abomination and a man courtesy of instinct and pheromones.

[Augustus]

Yeah. I totally agree. 

[HeritorA]

 

But the POV of Perturabo and IIRC Curze has demonstrated that they are not "normal" children. They wake up from their pods with an incredible amount of knowledge and understanding of their environment. The Lion, originally, upon confronting Luther somehow understood that these men were different than the beasts of the forrest.

Even a wild child will also know the instincts between a giant chaos mutated abomination and a man courtesy of instinct and pheromones.

 

LOL

[DarKnight]

 

But the POV of Perturabo and IIRC Curze has demonstrated that they are not "normal" children. They wake up from their pods with an incredible amount of knowledge and understanding of their environment. The Lion, originally, upon confronting Luther somehow understood that these men were different than the beasts of the forrest.

 

Even a wild child will also know the instincts between a giant chaos mutated abomination and a man courtesy of instinct and pheromones.

Well that's just like, your opinion man. But in all seriousness the Lion was exposed since adolescence to direct warp influence and probably killed and ate some great beasts (at least this is what I'm thinking in the head canon you chose to engage) and according to the scene in 'The First Heretic' even the Chaos gods themselves expected him to turn. Add that to the fact that the primarchs have no instinctive knowledge of the warp aside from "Uhhh this is kinda weird" I could definitely see a preteen Lion killing a village or two. Or not, I'm okay with that as well. Like you said, there's a reason he didn't kill Luther. Maybe their Moms are named Martha or something.

[Pariah32]

I can hand on heart say that this was not only Gav Thorpes best written Horus Heresy novel but his best written novel to date period! In fact this is in my top five of Horus Heresy books!

 

Simply superb.

 

He did a great job of bringing the dark angels back into the fold in such a well conceived manner.

 

 

Also the fight with Konrad was genious

 

[Corswain]

Yeah, I agree. I've never had any real problem with Gav Thorpes writing (except for his odd disregard for the Chapters hierarchy) but this is definitely one of my favourites. From Black Library, not just Gav or the Heresy.

It certainly lived up to my expectations.

[Forward Assist]

In my opinion, Gav Thorpe is at his best when he has a creative groove to run in. When he followed up Savage Weapons with The Lion, he carried over some of the feel created by ADB's writing. Same-same, I think Angels of Caliban really shines when Alan Bligh's footnotes for the First Legion get fleshed out on the page.

 

Otherwise, he's less good.

[HeritorA]

In my opinion, Gav Thorpe is at his best when he has a creative groove to run in. When he followed up Savage Weapons with The Lion, he carried over some of the feel created by ADB's writing. Same-same, I think Angels of Caliban really shines when Alan Bligh's footnotes for the First Legion get fleshed out on the page.

 

Otherwise, he's less good.

True

[Pariah32]

For me the whole book felt so smooth to read. The two story lines of Caliban and the Lion were seamlessly intertwined and not jarring at all.

 

I found with Fallen Angels the two story lines were a little jarring and obvious, I could not wait to jump back to Caliban everytime the author went to the Lions story line (which for me was a bit too much bolter porn). Where as in Angels of Caliban both story lines were equally engrossing.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hmmm, Guilliman's "mother" is alive and he still speaks to her? Must have been going through rejuvenat treatments if she is still old and alive. Nice to hear a Primarch actually having a mother bringing him up.

[Tymell]

Aye, it's mentioned in Unremembered Empire that's she's been through rejuvenat treatments, though still worries she won't be around for that much longer.

 

I like her, and wish more of the Primarchs had a figure like that. I love the bit in Unremembered Empire when Guilliman is on Sotha and is told that the Pharos is empathic, and will only transport him back to Macragge when he truly needs it more than anything. It's not the thought of a threat to his empire or his legion that brings him back, it's when he's told Curze went after Euten and he's concerned for her.

[1000 Sons]

They need to find a way to get Astelan, Khârn and Sevatar in a room or drop pod together, would be some great dialogue.

 

The Lion part of the story was solid, but the happenings on Caliban were terrific.  Luther, Zahariel, Astelan, Cypher were really fleshed out nicely and are very interesting characters.

 

 

I hope Cypher returns, Zahariel breaks his legs then tells the two marines to dispose of the body but doesn't shoot him. Will we get some shadowy meeting with the Lion and Cypher that hints at his purpose in the 40k universe ?

 

Typhon appearing at the end is interesting, hope he gets some good back story in the next part, the Death Guard had been disregarded for too long.

 

Really looking forward to the next part of this. The Lions return, a big inter-legion civil war and the shattering of Caliban. The more I read of the Dark Angels the more I like them.

 

[HeritorA]

Aye, it's mentioned in Unremembered Empire that's she's been through rejuvenat treatments, though still worries she won't be around for that much longer.

 

I like her, and wish more of the Primarchs had a figure like that. I love the bit in Unremembered Empire when Guilliman is on Sotha and is told that the Pharos is empathic, and will only transport him back to Macragge when he truly needs it more than anything. It's not the thought of a threat to his empire or his legion that brings him back, it's when he's told Curze went after Euten and he's concerned for her.

One of the most horrible parts of Imperium Secundus which in itself is horrible filler to shove some pages your way

[Kasper_Hawser]

Oh come on, no reason to dis Guilliman just because he still has a mortal mum. 

 

If Guilliman's mum is alive, I wonder if Dorn's adoptive father is as well. I think he had one on Inwitt.

 

Damn you Typhon. I hope somebody Force Weapons you up your ass in the 41st millenium.

 

None for Lion though, poor guy. At least Russ got a big bad wolf for a mother for awhile whereas Lion had to fend for himself for years before meeting Luther. Pretty amazing actually. He's right, Curze is a coward for being unable to stomach his visions, whereas Lion also had to deal with similar chaos whispers in the forests of Caliban and still came out relatively sane and loyal.

[mc warhammer]

 

Aye, it's mentioned in Unremembered Empire that's she's been through rejuvenat treatments, though still worries she won't be around for that much longer.

 

I like her, and wish more of the Primarchs had a figure like that. I love the bit in Unremembered Empire when Guilliman is on Sotha and is told that the Pharos is empathic, and will only transport him back to Macragge when he truly needs it more than anything. It's not the thought of a threat to his empire or his legion that brings him back, it's when he's told Curze went after Euten and he's concerned for her.

One of the most horrible parts of Imperium Secundus which in itself is horrible filler to shove some pages your way

 

 

filler? what writer wants to waste precious words on filler? i imagine the problem is having too much to put in a book not the opposite.

 

and guilliman being the only primarch with an existing healthy parental relationship to an actual bona fide human? perfect.

[Augustus]

My problem with the arc was that it was long (or at least felt like it) and in my opinion not well done. There are times when the HH series has changed things and added new things that have greatly improved the setting. But because of the reasons I mentioned I feel this storyline was a disservice.

 

The galaxy is large and traveling through the warp painstakingly slow, a fact only exacerbated by the demons aiding Horus. So it shouldn't be a shock that Guillimen was absent. Or the Lion. The fact that these guys ,along with Russ, were coming up on Horus' rear forcing his confrontation with the Emperor is a good story.

 

We could have had good stories of them fighting through the warp delaying Horus' reinforcements as they all attempted a mad dash towards Terra.

 

Instead for the most part, we got a lot of fretting around and hand wringing by the primarchs and the whole storyline will be "shhhhhhhhh" cause Imperium Seconds never happened.

 

And my personal beef is the continuing damage done to the Lion's character. I liked the tactical genius, slow to anger, kind of primarch credited to the Lion in the past. Instead we consistently get a guy barely keeping his rage in check. Oh and the whole Curze thing. Everytime I think it can't get worse... And then it does.

 

The ghost of this storyline and Curze won't be over until M'Shen takes the guy's head.

[Forward Assist]

I'm hoping the BA and DA gain some narrative momentum on the march to Terra that leaves behind some of the 'staleness' of the Imperium Secundus arc. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be a convincing reason why Horus is taking so long to reach Terra with only the WS doing anything significant to slow his advance.

 

If, given Curze's revelation about the Emperor, they are stirred into sudden action and immediately begin fighting through to Terra this could help explain Horus' delay; two relatively fresh and powerful legions attacking his flank would be a significant thorn in his side. Perhaps at a decisive point Leman Russ goes 'all-in' with a suicidal thrust to stop Horus' vanguard and the Lion diverts his forces to save the SW and preserve their strength whilst the BAs head for Terra.

 

Written well, this would breathe some life into the legions that have been sidelined up to now, create some nail-biting tension as the series reaches its climax, and still get everyone to their places long allotted in the fluff.

[Legionator]

 

Are we sure that Lupus Cypher died? He was defeated and buried in rabble but that does not make his death certain. The Watchers can keep Luther and Lion alive for ten thousand year and they were suffered far worse injures.

 

[HeritorA]

My problem with the arc was that it was long (or at least felt like it) and in my opinion not well done. There are times when the HH series has changed things and added new things that have greatly improved the setting. But because of the reasons I mentioned I feel this storyline was a disservice.

 

The galaxy is large and traveling through the warp painstakingly slow, a fact only exacerbated by the demons aiding Horus. So it shouldn't be a shock that Guillimen was absent. Or the Lion. The fact that these guys ,along with Russ, were coming up on Horus' rear forcing his confrontation with the Emperor is a good story.

 

We could have had good stories of them fighting through the warp delaying Horus' reinforcements as they all attempted a mad dash towards Terra.

 

Instead for the most part, we got a lot of fretting around and hand wringing by the primarchs and the whole storyline will be "shhhhhhhhh" cause Imperium Seconds never happened.

 

And my personal beef is the continuing damage done to the Lion's character. I liked the tactical genius, slow to anger, kind of primarch credited to the Lion in the past. Instead we consistently get a guy barely keeping his rage in check. Oh and the whole Curze thing. Everytime I think it can't get worse... And then it does.

 

The ghost of this storyline and Curze won't be over until M'Shen takes the guy's head.

Great points - at least someone sees Imperium Secundus for what it is.

[no I'm alpharius]

But the POV of Perturabo and IIRC Curze has demonstrated that they are not "normal" children. They wake up from their pods with an incredible amount of knowledge and understanding of their environment. The Lion, originally, upon confronting Luther somehow understood that these men were different than the beasts of the forrest.

 

Incidentally, re-reading Deliverance Lost and child-Corax has the scientific knowledge but not the human understanding.