Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

Lay off the Gav Thorpe hate
Hes been advised what to write / what he cannot say
As have all the Black Library writers
If you are unhappy email black library
Dont attack a writer over it
Some of the comments are absolute
Just because a novel didnt go your way get over it
Its a tragedy the whole event , nothing goes too well for anyone
Its supposed to stir up emotion reading some of these books but chill out on the author hate
Cheers

[bluntblade]

Most objections I've seen are about his writing, personally. Contrast with the reception that John French got for Praetorian of Dorn, which arguably pulled off the biggest upset to established lore so far, but is widely considered one of the series's best.

[Biscuittzz]

Nothing against the storyline or arc that is being taken, as that is most likely in the hands of the higher-ups within Black Library. However, even if the story is bad it can still be salvaged by good writing and prose. I'm glad that DA fans like what Gav has done with your legion's arc. It's ten times better than what he did with RG anyway.

[DarkChaplain]

Most objections I've seen are about his writing, personally. Contrast with the reception that John French got for Praetorian of Dorn, which arguably pulled off the biggest upset to established lore so far, but is widely considered one of the series's best.

 

Wildly considered one of the best? Its not even widely released yet, aka out in paperback and not just direct only. Nevermind all the arguments it spawned. Best not to get ahead of yourself there judging its reception. (Besides, the book's got massive problems to talk about as well, and in my eyes bigger ones than Deliverance Lost or Corax).

[Augustus]

I'm curious to know what those thoughts are DarkChaplain. Care to point me to a thread where (if) you gave them? Or if you don't mind feel free to pm me.

[DarkChaplain]

I think I laid out a few things on the Praetorian thread (wasn't that one locked over fighting too? I can't remember), but I also reviewed it here.

[bluntblade]

 

 

Most objections I've seen are about his writing, personally. Contrast with the reception that John French got for Praetorian of Dorn, which arguably pulled off the biggest upset to established lore so far, but is widely considered one of the series's best.

Wildly considered one of the best? Its not even widely released yet, aka out in paperback and not just direct only. Nevermind all the arguments it spawned. Best not to get ahead of yourself there judging its reception. (Besides, the book's got massive problems to talk about as well, and in my eyes bigger ones than Deliverance Lost or Corax).

Ah, right. I guess things get distorted if you're just looking at a couple of threads

[HeritorA]

AoC suffers not even from who wrote it - it suffers from being a filler to make pages between important books like PoH, PoD or MoM. What actually AoC describe? How 3 primarchs seating their asses at Ultramar hunt for Curze and being burocrats? Or that at the last page of a long filler pages they FINALLY FOR THE SAKE OF ANYTHING SACRED decided to move somewhere and do something?

The point is not with authors hate - the point is with editorial choir and BL strategy to 'filler in' to maximum.

[hopkins]

yeah, it's not like anything interesting happened on caliban

[DarkChaplain]

Yeah, nothing interesting ever happens on Caliban. It's like that random backwater town without so much as a train station or cable TV and internet lines. May be relaxing for a weekend but boring as sin to live in.

[Tymell]

yeah, it's not like anything interesting happened on caliban

Yeah, sarcasm aside (I'm assuming, maybe my sarc-meter needs re-tuning :p ) the Caliban sections were actually my favourite bits of the book, which I really wasn't expecting. I've generally found Caliban to range from frustratingly stupid to plain dull, but I really enjoyed it in Angels. Luther and Astellan were great characters, and made the plot there much more engaging.

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

Nice review Dark Chaplain

i havent read the book

But im guessing it was more about the Alpha Legion

There last? Main battle in the heresy?

I think it was there book to shine

Fists will be in many more books and will get there time

The battle of terra will be 5-6 Books?

So you will get lots of Fist character action / background along with blood angels

Then after that is the scouring period

[HeritorA]

yeah, it's not like anything interesting happened on caliban

Yeah, sarcasm aside (I'm assuming, maybe my sarc-meter needs re-tuning ) the Caliban sections were actually my favourite bits of the book, which I really wasn't expecting. I've generally found Caliban to range from frustratingly stupid to plain dull, but I really enjoyed it in Angels. Luther and Astellan were great characters, and made the plot there much more engaging.

Sure - being traitoris is much more engaging, lol. His treachery is not something to vote for, lol. He already made piece with Typhus - who will bite Luther in the ass very soon. Cause Typhus does not have friends - Typhus thinks only about himself

[Tymell]

 

 

yeah, it's not like anything interesting happened on caliban

 

Yeah, sarcasm aside (I'm assuming, maybe my sarc-meter needs re-tuning :P ) the Caliban sections were actually my favourite bits of the book, which I really wasn't expecting. I've generally found Caliban to range from frustratingly stupid to plain dull, but I really enjoyed it in Angels. Luther and Astellan were great characters, and made the plot there much more engaging.

Sure - being traitoris is much more engaging, lol. His treachery is not something to vote for, lol. He already made piece with Typhus  - who will bite Luther in the ass very soon. Cause Typhus does not have friends - Typhus thinks only about himself :D

Treachery is certainly something to "vote for" if it makes for good characters and stories. Besides which, if you don't like treachery, the Horus Heresy might not be the series for you ;p

[HeritorA]

yeah, it's not like anything interesting happened on caliban

Yeah, sarcasm aside (I'm assuming, maybe my sarc-meter needs re-tuning ) the Caliban sections were actually my favourite bits of the book, which I really wasn't expecting. I've generally found Caliban to range from frustratingly stupid to plain dull, but I really enjoyed it in Angels. Luther and Astellan were great characters, and made the plot there much more engaging.

Sure - being traitoris is much more engaging, lol. His treachery is not something to vote for, lol. He already made piece with Typhus - who will bite Luther in the ass very soon. Cause Typhus does not have friends - Typhus thinks only about himself

Treachery is certainly something to "vote for" if it makes for good characters and stories. Besides which, if you don't like treachery, the Horus Heresy might not be the series for you ;p

Tymell tymell - why do you like bad books?

[DarkChaplain]

"Why do you have different opinions and tastes from me". That's what you're really asking there, isn't it?

[Augustus]

It seems quite a few people liked the Caliban storyline better. Too bad we didn't have a whole book devoted to each subject and then a third one bridging them instead of Fallen Angels and Angels of Caliban being split between both. If there was continuity between the authors it might have been done better. But it feels as if they are ... put into a smaller box. Less time to work with either.

 

Personally I rather we had Dark Angels books devoted primarily to the Legion at Large. The Caliban storyline, while extremely important, would have been better suited to a scouring story line.

 

 

The real gems of the 1st Legion are Savage Weapons and Wolf King and both have nothing to do with Caliban. However, this might be just personal preference. 

[HeritorA]

It seems quite a few people liked the Caliban storyline better. Too bad we didn't have a whole book devoted to each subject and then a third one bridging them instead of Fallen Angels and Angels of Caliban being split between both. If there was continuity between the authors it might have been done better. But it feels as if they are ... put into a smaller box. Less time to work with either.

 

Personally I rather we had Dark Angels books devoted primarily to the Legion at Large. The Caliban storyline, while extremely important, would have been better suited to a scouring story line.

 

 

The real gems of the 1st Legion are Savage Weapons and Wolf King and both have nothing to do with Caliban. However, this might be just personal preference. 

The truth of it indeed. The best Dark Angels stories are the ones that were written not about them - but on their views from the eyes of different people/Legions, lol

[Roomsky]

Spoilery review below. TL:DR- it was good

I want to start this by saying that I am in awe that this was written by the same man who wrote Deliverance Lost. Hell, I'm surprised this is by the same man that wrote The Lion. Not only is it extremely engaging, but it doesn't probably the best job with Imperium Secundus so far in my eyes.

I'm going to start with some structural praise: Short of the establishing action of the Deathwing, there was no Bolter-Porn in this book. Praise the heavens, and the Gav, for he has delivered us from boredom. Its all intrigue, politicking and debate. And if you're asking why this is a good thing, then you, sir or madame, have a varying opinion from mine and shall thus be shunned for no good reason. This is the stuff I read the Heresy for, and is foremost what I;ve been expecting from Imperium Secundus since it began.

Now, for a long time I've been critical of Gav's Lion. Why?

http://pre03.deviantart.net/a592/th/pre/i/2013/035/0/d/the_primarchs__i_fought_the_law_by_vangarshriek-d5ttucm.jpg

We don't talk about that.

Except we totally do! And I applaud him for it, because he turned an annoying plot point into a good one, because it actually went somewhere. Zahariel's ultimate alignment is not the result of single issue psychology, but of a multitude of reasons, as is believable. But this novel cemented something that was poorly explained in The Lion, but is something I'm now a huge fan of: The Lion is an animal. He is brutal, and at times monstrous, and he struggles constantly to cover it in a veneer of civility. It makes Curze his perfect nemesis, and it is discussed so in the climax.

Another elephant in the room: Astelan. Going into this, I was afraid Gav was slowly purging the storylines of other authors in favor of his own. (Case and point: Nemiel is killed off, Astelan goes to Caliban.) But man, I was loving this piece of by his second scene. No longer do we have Gav's Raven Guard, a bunch of interchangeable guys in black plus Branne. Astelan is not Zahariel is not Cypher is not Luther is not Belath. They were all interesting in their bid for power, and the constant friction between them was brilliant to read. I had long hoped someone other than gav would get the Dark Angels, but now I hope he receives the reigns in future.

Also, the fact that Astelan undermined Luthor's plea to Belath by doing the very sort of thing Astelan was so angry at Belath for was brilliant.

The book was not without flaws, however, but before I move into them I want to reiterate what a great character piece this was. Gav may not be showing these characters as we expected them to be, and I can absolutely see the frustration, but if he continues to turn out product like this then I say more power to him.

All that being said, Guilliman was a bit of a moron. Guilliman is the last character who should be a bit of a moron.

He has the hope for humanity, yes, but where is the genius? He spends the hole book giving limp-wristed advice to make the Lion seem super-cool, his own pragmatism erased so that the Lion could flaunt his own. Where was the avenging bean-counter? Why is everyone so much worse than Dan at writing our spiritual liege?

Sanguinius was a mixed bag. Certainly erring on the side of good, I was glad to see him as more than simply "The Really Nice One." But boy howdy, he sure was quick to forget his rage at The Lion being absent he had in Pharos.

All in all, this was a really solid read, and the best I've ever read out of Gav Thorpe. I really hope he keeps this up in future, because the Heresy needs more of this intrigue and character interaction.

EDIT: I still can't decide whether "I will theoretically punch you in your practical face." was amazing or stupid.

[b1soul]

I think Swallow, Thorpe, Haley all fail to capture the essence of Sang

 

Their portrayals are bland, goody-two-shoes

 

In my view, Sang's character should have a very sinister undercurrent

 

He should straddle the twilight between angel and monster moreso than any other primarch

 

The Red Thirst is as bad as the Wulfen curse or the Butcher's nails, if not worse

 

So far, all we've gotten is a boring, "wanna please daddy" bird boy

[HeritorA]

I think Swallow, Thorpe, Haley all fail to capture the essence of Sang

 

Their portrayals are bland, goody-two-shoes

 

In my view, Sang's character should have a very sinister undercurrent

 

He should straddle the twilight between angel and monster moreso than any other primarch

 

The Red Thirst is as bad as the Wulfen curse or the Butcher's nails, if not worse

 

So far, all we've gotten is a boring, "wanna please daddy" bird boy

The most close to good Sangy description was Haley. But even he failed to deliver in total, sadly. Hope we will get right Sangy before the end

[Marshal Rohr]

Sanguinius is, quite directly, the archangel Michael. Which always leads me to ask, and maybe it's because I didn't grow up Catholic or Orthodox, when has Michael ever been anything but a conqueror? I know modern Christianity pushes the idea of guardian angels and all that, but angels are mean dudes in the Bible. I guess the dark angels fill that roll more completely than blood angels.

[Pariah32]

We really need someone to take the reins on Sanguinius and the blood angels. I imagine Sanguinius as a character can be quite a challenge to get right. Though once done right he could be an awesome badass to get behind, the same goes for the blood angels there is so much untapped potential there! Don't get me wrong James Swallow does a half decent job with them but he really lacked giving them character.

 

I think b1soul nails it with the skirting the line between angel and monster concept. There needs to be some form of sinister undercurrent something that makes this Primarch extremely dangerous. Without bringing in the who is strongest primarch I truly believe Sanguinius to be the most dangerous of them all!

 

I wonder who will write the Primarchs series for Sanguinius? 

[b1soul]

Sanguinius is, quite directly, the archangel Michael.

The Archangel Michael is the noble aspect of Sanguinius, the side he shows to the adoring masses

 

His hidden flaw, the Red Thirst, is more in line with Dracula than with Michael

 

I would've written Sang as

 

 

adored by the public and well-liked by many of his brothers...but his own men sense an evil within him and within themselves

 

They worship their father but are almost wary of him. Sanguinius' appearance is angelic but under closer scrutiny, it is unsettling. His paleness is corpse-like. His eyes seem to hide a strangeness, a desire barely restrained...a hunger. His sons who have spoken with him alone have noticed this but try to suppress their unease.

 

After battle, Sanguinius sometimes goes missing. When legion command notices this, the entire legion is forbidden from visiting the battlefield until Sanguinius' return. After he returns, only apothecaries who take an oath of secrecy may recover geneseed from the battlefield.

 

The BA fear that the Imperium will start to notice about their father...what they have

 

 

There's my little fantasy take haha

[Marshal Rohr]

Ive never been into the vampire thing. I was really happy when the series started that we'd see the situations that caused the genesis of the black rage and red thirst but after it was basically always there in fear to tread, down the psychic visions with Sanguinius tied up in black and red veins, I just kinda lost interest in it. Zephon was the first Blood Angel I liked since Horus Rising.

 

It's a different strokes, personal tastes thing though.