Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[b1soul]

Yeah, the "vampire thing" has always been there though...so I'd prefer that they execute it really well instead of making Sang a bland, goody-two-shoes papa's boy

 

Personal taste and all that...I happen to like Dornian Heresy's cannibal Sang

[HeritorA]

Sanguinius is, quite directly, the archangel Michael.

The Archangel Michael is the noble aspect of Sanguinius, the side he shows to the adoring masses

His hidden flaw, the Red Thirst, is more in line with Dracula than with Michael

I would've written Sang as

adored by the public and well-liked by many of his brothers...but his own men sense an evil within him and within themselves

They worship their father but are almost wary of him. Sanguinius' appearance is angelic but under closer scrutiny, it is unsettling. His paleness is corpse-like. His eyes seem to hide a strangeness, a desire barely restrained...a hunger. His sons who have spoken with him alone have noticed this but try to suppress their unease.

After battle, Sanguinius sometimes goes missing. When legion command notices this, the entire legion is forbidden from visiting the battlefield until Sanguinius' return. After he returns, only apothecaries who take an oath of secrecy may recover geneseed from the battlefield.

The BA fear that the Imperium will start to notice about their father...what they have

There's my little fantasy take haha

True b1soul. You are correct indeed.

Ive never been into the vampire thing. I was really happy when the series started that we'd see the situations that caused the genesis of the black rage and red thirst but after it was basically always there in fear to tread, down the psychic visions with Sanguinius tied up in black and red veins, I just kinda lost interest in it. Zephon was the first Blood Angel I liked since Horus Rising.

It's a different strokes, personal tastes thing though.

Because Zephon is the only likeable Blood Angel so far, lol. In book 41 of the series, lol

[Marshal Rohr]

I just have a very specific view of the universe that doesn't line up with the 'official' view.

[Arkangilos]

To be fair, in the GC and Heresy it was supposed to be toned down a lot (it only hit them hard after their source of blood got dead).

 

Despite that, I agree with Rohr for the most part. Sanguinius is an Archangel, and Archangels are the generals of God. They are his weapons and tools, pure in purpose. Forgeworld described the Blood Angels perfectly. They give humans a chance. They give you the opportunity to do what you are supposed to do. When you squander that they utterly obliterate you. That's what 30k BA should be in these books. They shouldn't straddle the line between good and monster, and there isn't any "evil" inside of them. FW didn't do that and they already have given them a lot more character in two pages than the books have given them so far.

 

That's my problem with the way he's described,he's never really shown with the divine fury and purpose.

[b1soul]

In Fear to Tread, there apparently is some form of "evil" in Sang...trying to rear its head. The Red and Black veins and all that. In that book, the opening chapter has a BA succumb to the Red Thirst well before the Heresy.

 

I dunno...given the existing lore about a severe semi-latent flaw within the BA, I think you would have some freedom to write Sang and his boys as either more angelic or more vampiric

 

Choice is up to the writer. I think a 50/50 dichotomy would be most interesting.

Just a purely noble angel is never how I've thought of Sang. He's just be Michael in 40K then.

 

I strongly feel that there should be a very powerful internal struggle within Sang.

[DarkChaplain]

To be honest, I think we have enough Primarchs with sleeping monsters inside them. I'm more interested in Sanguinius' nobility and melancholy and tendency to emotional responses than him going super-dracula on anybody. He laments his sons' fates, and certainly has a wrathful angel sleeping inside him, as demonstrated last in Angels of Caliban here.

 

I prefer the flaw in the gene-seed to be massively rare - visible to the Primarch but not regular enough to be a big threat, but still a concern - and Sanguinius' psychic deathscream being the catalyst for it to become more common, and spelling the eventual doom for any son of his. We saw the process stoked and accelerated on Signus Prime, and we see Amit struggling massively with his Flesh Tearers during the scouring era and after, but during the Heresy itself I'd like it to be mostly unknown to anyone but the inner circle, like it has been.

 

Sanguinius's big trouble is that he has visions of the future, most notably his own death at Horus's hands. He doesn't need another chained-beast thing for himself to be interesting, or have internal conflict.

[Arkangilos]

As a 40k Blood Angel fanboy who loves the BA vampire aspects, I think the vampire element really should be after his death, like how Vlad (played by Gary Oldman, and the one who inspired the armor of Mephiston), became a vampire after drinking the Blood of Christ (dead by this point) while cursing him. The flaw needs to be the tragedy of his death, his once noble chapter of Angels is falling apart.

 

The duality here needs to be, "we have your salvation? Oh, you don't want to liberate the people the Emperor has claimed? Well, say good bye to your first born Sons."

 

"You need to rethink your anti-imperial ways and join us. What's that? You want to keep celebrating the Xenos leaders? Say goodbye to your biggest cities."

 

The promise of salvation that if rejected will see bliblically divine wrath

 

I wasn't a fan of the stuff in fear to tread.

[b1soul]

To be honest, I think we have enough Primarchs with sleeping monsters inside them.

I think the Lion and Sang are potentially the two Jeckyll and Hyde primarchs: Knight/Savage and Angel/Vampire

 

I'm looking at the others...

 

Dorn, Roboute, Khan, Ferrus, Vulkan, Corax...none have monsters in them. Russ...well, he himself seems immune to the Wulfen Curse, though I could be wrong. If I am, then you could add him to the Lion and Sang.

 

As for the eventual Traitors...the monstrous ones are Angron and Curze, who IMO are over 90% monstrous. Not much of a dichotomy really

[Augustus]

To be honest, I think we have enough Primarchs with sleeping monsters inside them. I'm more interested in Sanguinius' nobility and melancholy and tendency to emotional responses than him going super-dracula on anybody. He laments his sons' fates, and certainly has a wrathful angel sleeping inside him, as demonstrated last in Angels of Caliban here.

 

I thought they were all suppose to be monsters. Some show it well. Some hide it. But it's in all of them. Because it is in all of us -- humanity.

[b1soul]

I think it's just a case of some having more of a dualistic naturr than others

 

The Lion or Sanguinius on one hand...vs. more straight-laced primarchs like Dorn, Guilliman, Vulkan, etc...

 

Not saying the latter would not be really scary when angered...but they're predominantly noble

 

I think a writer could easily emphasise Sang's nobility over his darker traits...it's up to his preference really

 

Swallow really tried to tap into Sang's darkness or latent evil or whatever you wanna call it.

 

I just thought his execution stank

[HeritorA]

I think it's just a case of some having more of a dualistic naturr than others

 

The Lion or Sanguinius on one hand...vs. more straight-laced primarchs like Dorn, Guilliman, Vulkan, etc...

 

Not saying the latter would not be really scary when angered...but they're predominantly noble

 

I think a writer could easily emphasise Sang's nobility over his darker traits...it's up to his preference really

 

Swallow really tried to tap into Sang's darkness or latent evil or whatever you wanna call it.

 

I just thought his execution stank

totally agree with you b1soul! Great observation!

[depthcharge12]

I'm in the middle of reading the book (even though I know all the spoilers) and the book reminds me of A Thousand Sons. All the action and drama is epic, but then there are mustache twirling scenes that just seem shoehorned and deflated in there. Like the Zahariel and Ouroborous. He went from a loyal, powerful psyker to a Death World lorax treehugger in the span of a few pages. Like why in the hell would you have such rose tinted glasses that you want a death world back?

 

The parts I find the most interesting, undoubtedly came from Alan Bligh :P and I think his hand had more in the writing of those parts than Gav's. Like you can sort of tell the DA fluff about the wings and fighting styles were copied from a memo Bligh shot to Gav. Not that it's a bad thing as I love every minute of it...but you can tell in the book where Alan bligh wrote stuff...and where he didn't :P

 

I'm also glad the the Dreadwing is sounding much more mechanized as I've had to resign myself to building an Ironwing force until Dreadwing comes out lol.

 

I'd also like to mention that I have a hate/love relationship with the individual plots and schemes the 1st has. It's kind of like the knights of Arthurian legend where it's a band of individual warriors rather than a bonded military unit. It niggles at me since I think as Astartes, they shouldn't be this easily acquainted with back stabbing, but as Erebus and Typhon have demonstrated, this is still within the realm of possibility.

[HeritorA]

I'm in the middle of reading the book (even though I know all the spoilers) and the book reminds me of A Thousand Sons. All the action and drama is epic, but then there are mustache twirling scenes that just seem shoehorned and deflated in there. Like the Zahariel and Ouroborous. He went from a loyal, powerful psyker to a Death World lorax treehugger in the span of a few pages. Like why in the hell would you have such rose tinted glasses that you want a death world back?

The parts I find the most interesting, undoubtedly came from Alan Bligh and I think his hand had more in the writing of those parts than Gav's. Like you can sort of tell the DA fluff about the wings and fighting styles were copied from a memo Bligh shot to Gav. Not that it's a bad thing as I love every minute of it...but you can tell in the book where Alan bligh wrote stuff...and where he didn't

I'm also glad the the Dreadwing is sounding much more mechanized as I've had to resign myself to building an Ironwing force until Dreadwing comes out lol.

I'd also like to mention that I have a hate/love relationship with the individual plots and schemes the 1st has. It's kind of like the knights of Arthurian legend where it's a band of individual warriors rather than a bonded military unit. It niggles at me since I think as Astartes, they shouldn't be this easily acquainted with back stabbing, but as Erebus and Typhon have demonstrated, this is still within the realm of possibility.

'All the action and drama is epic' - we read different book? Exactly where it was epic? Them a squad of mahrines appeared? Or more than 1 Primarch in 1 scene?

Know no Fear, Betrayer - this WERE epic!

[depthcharge12]

I'm in the middle of reading the book (even though I know all the spoilers) and the book reminds me of A Thousand Sons. All the action and drama is epic, but then there are mustache twirling scenes that just seem shoehorned and deflated in there. Like the Zahariel and Ouroborous. He went from a loyal, powerful psyker to a Death World lorax treehugger in the span of a few pages. Like why in the hell would you have such rose tinted glasses that you want a death world back?

The parts I find the most interesting, undoubtedly came from Alan Bligh and I think his hand had more in the writing of those parts than Gav's. Like you can sort of tell the DA fluff about the wings and fighting styles were copied from a memo Bligh shot to Gav. Not that it's a bad thing as I love every minute of it...but you can tell in the book where Alan bligh wrote stuff...and where he didn't

I'm also glad the the Dreadwing is sounding much more mechanized as I've had to resign myself to building an Ironwing force until Dreadwing comes out lol.

I'd also like to mention that I have a hate/love relationship with the individual plots and schemes the 1st has. It's kind of like the knights of Arthurian legend where it's a band of individual warriors rather than a bonded military unit. It niggles at me since I think as Astartes, they shouldn't be this easily acquainted with back stabbing, but as Erebus and Typhon have demonstrated, this is still within the realm of possibility.

'All the action and drama is epic' - we read different book? Exactly where it was epic? Them a squad of mahrines appeared? Or more than 1 Primarch in 1 scene?

Know no Fear, Betrayer - this WERE epic!

Lol did you skip over the entire Dreadwing scene?

Or the manhunt for Curze that foreshadows the length that the DAs will go to hunt the Fallen at the expense of the populace?

[HeritorA]

I'm in the middle of reading the book (even though I know all the spoilers) and the book reminds me of A Thousand Sons. All the action and drama is epic, but then there are mustache twirling scenes that just seem shoehorned and deflated in there. Like the Zahariel and Ouroborous. He went from a loyal, powerful psyker to a Death World lorax treehugger in the span of a few pages. Like why in the hell would you have such rose tinted glasses that you want a death world back?

The parts I find the most interesting, undoubtedly came from Alan Bligh and I think his hand had more in the writing of those parts than Gav's. Like you can sort of tell the DA fluff about the wings and fighting styles were copied from a memo Bligh shot to Gav. Not that it's a bad thing as I love every minute of it...but you can tell in the book where Alan bligh wrote stuff...and where he didn't

I'm also glad the the Dreadwing is sounding much more mechanized as I've had to resign myself to building an Ironwing force until Dreadwing comes out lol.

I'd also like to mention that I have a hate/love relationship with the individual plots and schemes the 1st has. It's kind of like the knights of Arthurian legend where it's a band of individual warriors rather than a bonded military unit. It niggles at me since I think as Astartes, they shouldn't be this easily acquainted with back stabbing, but as Erebus and Typhon have demonstrated, this is still within the realm of possibility.

'All the action and drama is epic' - we read different book? Exactly where it was epic? Them a squad of mahrines appeared? Or more than 1 Primarch in 1 scene?

Know no Fear, Betrayer - this WERE epic!

Lol did you skip over the entire Dreadwing scene?

Or the manhunt for Curze that foreshadows the length that the DAs will go to hunt the Fallen at the expense of the populace?

several hundreds of SM fighting depleted garnison? Ahem have you seen 10000 wb took on 5000 Ultrasmurfs in Purge. Or let's talk 20000-25k Night Lords take on Sotha, Istvaan 3-5, Alaxxes, ahem - hundreds of thousands SM. Our definition of EPIC differs :)

[IronDrake28]

I'm in the middle of reading the book (even though I know all the spoilers) and the book reminds me of A Thousand Sons. All the action and drama is epic, but then there are mustache twirling scenes that just seem shoehorned and deflated in there. Like the Zahariel and Ouroborous. He went from a loyal, powerful psyker to a Death World lorax treehugger in the span of a few pages. Like why in the hell would you have such rose tinted glasses that you want a death world back?

The parts I find the most interesting, undoubtedly came from Alan Bligh and I think his hand had more in the writing of those parts than Gav's. Like you can sort of tell the DA fluff about the wings and fighting styles were copied from a memo Bligh shot to Gav. Not that it's a bad thing as I love every minute of it...but you can tell in the book where Alan bligh wrote stuff...and where he didn't

I'm also glad the the Dreadwing is sounding much more mechanized as I've had to resign myself to building an Ironwing force until Dreadwing comes out lol.

I'd also like to mention that I have a hate/love relationship with the individual plots and schemes the 1st has. It's kind of like the knights of Arthurian legend where it's a band of individual warriors rather than a bonded military unit. It niggles at me since I think as Astartes, they shouldn't be this easily acquainted with back stabbing, but as Erebus and Typhon have demonstrated, this is still within the realm of possibility.

'All the action and drama is epic' - we read different book? Exactly where it was epic? Them a squad of mahrines appeared? Or more than 1 Primarch in 1 scene?

Know no Fear, Betrayer - this WERE epic!

Lol did you skip over the entire Dreadwing scene?

Or the manhunt for Curze that foreshadows the length that the DAs will go to hunt the Fallen at the expense of the populace?

several hundreds of SM fighting depleted garnison? Ahem have you seen 10000 wb took on 5000 Ultrasmurfs in Purge. Or let's talk 20000-25k Night Lords take on Sotha, Istvaan 3-5, Alaxxes, ahem - hundreds of thousands SM. Our definition of EPIC differs :)

I don't see why the numbers makes a battle epic or not. You can have a truly awe-inspiring duel between 2 opponents, or a weak sauce battle between millions of guardsmen and their flashlights. Besides, it all depends how it's written, right?

[depthcharge12]

I'm in the middle of reading the book (even though I know all the spoilers) and the book reminds me of A Thousand Sons. All the action and drama is epic, but then there are mustache twirling scenes that just seem shoehorned and deflated in there. Like the Zahariel and Ouroborous. He went from a loyal, powerful psyker to a Death World lorax treehugger in the span of a few pages. Like why in the hell would you have such rose tinted glasses that you want a death world back?

The parts I find the most interesting, undoubtedly came from Alan Bligh and I think his hand had more in the writing of those parts than Gav's. Like you can sort of tell the DA fluff about the wings and fighting styles were copied from a memo Bligh shot to Gav. Not that it's a bad thing as I love every minute of it...but you can tell in the book where Alan bligh wrote stuff...and where he didn't

I'm also glad the the Dreadwing is sounding much more mechanized as I've had to resign myself to building an Ironwing force until Dreadwing comes out lol.

I'd also like to mention that I have a hate/love relationship with the individual plots and schemes the 1st has. It's kind of like the knights of Arthurian legend where it's a band of individual warriors rather than a bonded military unit. It niggles at me since I think as Astartes, they shouldn't be this easily acquainted with back stabbing, but as Erebus and Typhon have demonstrated, this is still within the realm of possibility.

'All the action and drama is epic' - we read different book? Exactly where it was epic? Them a squad of mahrines appeared? Or more than 1 Primarch in 1 scene?

Know no Fear, Betrayer - this WERE epic!

Lol did you skip over the entire Dreadwing scene?

Or the manhunt for Curze that foreshadows the length that the DAs will go to hunt the Fallen at the expense of the populace?

several hundreds of SM fighting depleted garnison? Ahem have you seen 10000 wb took on 5000 Ultrasmurfs in Purge. Or let's talk 20000-25k Night Lords take on Sotha, Istvaan 3-5, Alaxxes, ahem - hundreds of thousands SM. Our definition of EPIC differs :)

It's starting to go down the rode of pedantry and semantics. I would go on but it would just evolve into the above sentence :) using a warp rift weapon mounted to the space ship equivalent of a major city to kill a "couple of depleted marines" doesn't sound like an afternoon scuffle. Nor would it be warranted.

[Biscuittzz]

 

To be honest, I think we have enough Primarchs with sleeping monsters inside them.

I think the Lion and Sang are potentially the two Jeckyll and Hyde primarchs: Knight/Savage and Angel/Vampire

 

I'm looking at the others...

 

Dorn, Roboute, Khan, Ferrus, Vulkan, Corax...none have monsters in them. Russ...well, he himself seems immune to the Wulfen Curse, though I could be wrong. If I am, then you could add him to the Lion and Sang.

 

As for the eventual Traitors...the monstrous ones are Angron and Curze, who IMO are over 90% monstrous. Not much of a dichotomy really

 

 

You could possibly say Corax, as he knew that him and Curze were not so dissimilar to each other. He's noted as holding off on taking some paths as he can see that it will lead him down the one Curze took. He can foresee what he may become.

[HeritorA]

 

 

To be honest, I think we have enough Primarchs with sleeping monsters inside them.

I think the Lion and Sang are potentially the two Jeckyll and Hyde primarchs: Knight/Savage and Angel/Vampire

 

I'm looking at the others...

 

Dorn, Roboute, Khan, Ferrus, Vulkan, Corax...none have monsters in them. Russ...well, he himself seems immune to the Wulfen Curse, though I could be wrong. If I am, then you could add him to the Lion and Sang.

 

As for the eventual Traitors...the monstrous ones are Angron and Curze, who IMO are over 90% monstrous. Not much of a dichotomy really

 

 

You could possibly say Corax, as he knew that him and Curze were not so dissimilar to each other. He's noted as holding off on taking some paths as he can see that it will lead him down the one Curze took. He can foresee what he may become.

 

Shenangians. Angels of Caliban is more like a filler than a normal/good story. All Imperium Secundus stuff were created to simply add additional pages to sell. What happened in IS all that time - 3 were seating and playing mind games; hunt for Curze were declared, some leftovers has arrived - and we have 5 novels for that! FIVE NOVELS!

[DarkChaplain]

Imperium Secundus only appears for a very brief few chapters in Deathfire. Otherwise it's only The Unremembered Empire, Pharos, Angels of Caliban, and Ruinstorm is set to break it up and is seemingly mostly about space battles, and hardly about "Imperium Secundus".

 

Just bloody face it already - the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines ALL needed somewhere to be for YEARS in the series timeline. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels ALSO needed some reasons to be absent from the Siege. Had they NOT given attention to what they've been up to, people would complain about them not being in it.

 

I'm not too fond of Imperium Secundus, or rather the way it was handled, but bloody hell stop being disingenuous. There's a LOT of stuff going on there, a lot of good character development, and some much-needed drama between all involved. And Angels of Caliban was a cracking read that tied countless things together expertly, prepared the way for the Dark Angels' climax back on Caliban and is foreshadowing the Typhon plot to come up, and will probably be tackled in the Deathguard novel.

[HeritorA]

Imperium Secundus only appears for a very brief few chapters in Deathfire. Otherwise it's only The Unremembered Empire, Pharos, Angels of Caliban, and Ruinstorm is set to break it up and is seemingly mostly about space battles, and hardly about "Imperium Secundus".

 

Just bloody face it already - the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines ALL needed somewhere to be for YEARS in the series timeline. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels ALSO needed some reasons to be absent from the Siege. Had they NOT given attention to what they've been up to, people would complain about them not being in it.

 

I'm not too fond of Imperium Secundus, or rather the way it was handled, but bloody hell stop being disingenuous. There's a LOT of stuff going on there, a lot of good character development, and some much-needed drama between all involved. And Angels of Caliban was a cracking read that tied countless things together expertly, prepared the way for the Dark Angels' climax back on Caliban and is foreshadowing the Typhon plot to come up, and will probably be tackled in the Deathguard novel.

First, knowing IS stuff - Ruinstorm would be like 200 pages of melodrama between Guilliman, Sangy and the Lion, 50 pages of warpstorm depiction and 50 pages of space battles.

 

Second, IS is not a Shakespirian tragedy and has zero character development.

 

Third - do you even care what Luther and Typhon gonna do? traitoris tea party?

[Tymell]

Shenangians. Angels of Caliban is more like a filler than a normal/good story. All Imperium Secundus stuff were created to simply add additional pages to sell. What happened in IS all that time - 3 were seating and playing mind games; hunt for Curze were declared, some leftovers has arrived - and we have 5 novels for that! FIVE NOVELS!

I'm curious (perhaps I shouldn't be...) how you're defining "filler" stories as opposed to "normal/good" stories. Even those terms sound odd next to one another.

 

I loved the idea of Imperium Secundus when I first heard about it, and even if there might be aspects I don't like or agree with in the end, I still think it's a great idea, because it expands on the setting. It's something new and interesting, a creative concept that fits with the characters and allows for some cool stories and exploration of those involved.

 

No, we haven't had five novels on it. We've had two and a half (Unremembered Empire, Pharos and half of Angels of Caliban) plus one more to come (and we don't know how much of that will actually focus on IS). Deathfire had very little to do with it, and certainly wasn't "an Imperium Secundus novel" by aby stretch.

 

And as for " All Imperium Secundus stuff were created to simply add additional pages to sell" - well, isn't that kind of the whole point of the HH series?:p Expanding on a setting we already know the basic outline of and selling us what they create?

[DarkChaplain]

 

Imperium Secundus only appears for a very brief few chapters in Deathfire. Otherwise it's only The Unremembered Empire, Pharos, Angels of Caliban, and Ruinstorm is set to break it up and is seemingly mostly about space battles, and hardly about "Imperium Secundus".

 

Just bloody face it already - the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines ALL needed somewhere to be for YEARS in the series timeline. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels ALSO needed some reasons to be absent from the Siege. Had they NOT given attention to what they've been up to, people would complain about them not being in it.

 

I'm not too fond of Imperium Secundus, or rather the way it was handled, but bloody hell stop being disingenuous. There's a LOT of stuff going on there, a lot of good character development, and some much-needed drama between all involved. And Angels of Caliban was a cracking read that tied countless things together expertly, prepared the way for the Dark Angels' climax back on Caliban and is foreshadowing the Typhon plot to come up, and will probably be tackled in the Deathguard novel.

First, knowing IS stuff - Ruinstorm would be like 200 pages of melodrama between Guilliman, Sangy and the Lion, 50 pages of warpstorm depiction and 50 pages of space battles.

 

Second, IS is not a Shakespirian tragedy and has zero character development.

 

Third - do you even care what Luther and Typhon gonna do? traitoris tea party?

 

 

So the Lion being humbled and actually reaching the point where he goes to apologize isn't character development? The Lion overcoming his pride in multiple instances to see the job done? Sanguinius obviously growing more and more tired and disillusioned with Imperium Secundus in every book? Guilliman struggling to keep himself in check and overreaching for his role in the triumvirate? Luther being almost willing to compromise and being regretful of how things are going down? Zahariel and Astelan having their own changes of heart throughout and Zahariel's reactions to news about Nemiel pushing him over the edge? Barabas Dantioch and Alexis Polux becoming best friends in the setting from a position of mutual distrust?

 

Do I need to go on, really? If so, I really must say that while you love to deal in absolutes when it comes to declaring a book either amazing or trash, or an author the same, you have a poor grasp on characters and their arcs.

 

And yes, I very much care about what Luther, Astelan and Typhon are up to. There's room for some pretty damn cool stuff right there. Gav's already placed a few seeds through Legacy of Caliban and I'm eager to see them played out. He does a great job providing enough pieces per story to move the mystery forward while introducing new things along the way that all tie back in the end. The Sundering for Time of Legends is still one of my favorite trilogies/series published by Black Library.

[HeritorA]

 

 

Imperium Secundus only appears for a very brief few chapters in Deathfire. Otherwise it's only The Unremembered Empire, Pharos, Angels of Caliban, and Ruinstorm is set to break it up and is seemingly mostly about space battles, and hardly about "Imperium Secundus".

 

Just bloody face it already - the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines ALL needed somewhere to be for YEARS in the series timeline. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels ALSO needed some reasons to be absent from the Siege. Had they NOT given attention to what they've been up to, people would complain about them not being in it.

 

I'm not too fond of Imperium Secundus, or rather the way it was handled, but bloody hell stop being disingenuous. There's a LOT of stuff going on there, a lot of good character development, and some much-needed drama between all involved. And Angels of Caliban was a cracking read that tied countless things together expertly, prepared the way for the Dark Angels' climax back on Caliban and is foreshadowing the Typhon plot to come up, and will probably be tackled in the Deathguard novel.

First, knowing IS stuff - Ruinstorm would be like 200 pages of melodrama between Guilliman, Sangy and the Lion, 50 pages of warpstorm depiction and 50 pages of space battles.

 

Second, IS is not a Shakespirian tragedy and has zero character development.

 

Third - do you even care what Luther and Typhon gonna do? traitoris tea party?

 

 

So the Lion being humbled and actually reaching the point where he goes to apologize isn't character development? The Lion overcoming his pride in multiple instances to see the job done? Sanguinius obviously growing more and more tired and disillusioned with Imperium Secundus in every book? Guilliman struggling to keep himself in check and overreaching for his role in the triumvirate? Luther being almost willing to compromise and being regretful of how things are going down? Zahariel and Astelan having their own changes of heart throughout and Zahariel's reactions to news about Nemiel pushing him over the edge? Barabas Dantioch and Alexis Polux becoming best friends in the setting from a position of mutual distrust?

 

Do I need to go on, really? If so, I really must say that while you love to deal in absolutes when it comes to declaring a book either amazing or trash, or an author the same, you have a poor grasp on characters and their arcs.

 

And yes, I very much care about what Luther, Astelan and Typhon are up to. There's room for some pretty damn cool stuff right there. Gav's already placed a few seeds through Legacy of Caliban and I'm eager to see them played out. He does a great job providing enough pieces per story to move the mystery forward while introducing new things along the way that all tie back in the end. The Sundering for Time of Legends is still one of my favorite trilogies/series published by Black Library.

 

After the behavior of Russ in 'Leman Russ: The Great Wolf' Lion shouldn't ever apologize to anyone. Especially to self-loving dicks like Guilliman.

The story of IS is stagnant. Nothing happens - nothing, UE is a horrible book which includes unnessesary Primarch battles just for the page count.

 

'And yes, I very much care about what Luther, Astelan and Typhon are up to. There's room for some pretty damn cool stuff right there. Gav's already placed a few seeds through Legacy of Caliban and I'm eager to see them played out. He does a great job providing enough pieces per story to move the mystery forward while introducing new things along the way that all tie back in the end. The Sundering for Time of Legends is still one of my favorite trilogies/series published by Black Library.'

 

 - Luther, Astelan, Zahariel, Typhon and arriving Morty vs Cosrwain is not a 'Sundering for Time of Legends' scale event. Sadly - because Sundering was really good. The point of 'brotherhood' of Luther and Typhon are too outstretched.

And the fact Luther does not see Typhon as a self-loving contolling scheming perp - says a lot about Luther.

In major - that he is a naive kid. In his years - an old old man, tis a crime of galactic proportions!

[Fire Golem]

Heritor, can you not just accept that people like books that you don't? You don't need to convince people that books they like are bad, just because you dislike them.