Captain General Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 First, I must say that I do not play/have not played much 40k and as such, may be off the mark visa-vie the rules. But, it seems to me that the roles of tanks in 40k games/rules is not that of the WWII German blitzkrieg but closer to the WWII "infantry tank" or a "moving pillbox". The average man walks about 3 mph. The average medium tank of WWII has a "flat out" speed of about 30 mph and a cruising speed about 15mph - 10x and 5x that of the man. In 40k, they both "move" at 6" and the tanks can flat out at 12", a 2 to 1 ratio. The infantry tank moved at infantry speed when advancing in support and cruised about 15 mph. Which would place the 40k tanks in the infantry support class as opposed to the fast moving, shock attack weapon of current day/WWII. In my first few games of 40k I thought of the "fast" tank, only to realize that they were, indeed, pill boxes on tracks, to which I had to change my tactics. So, the question is - how do you deploy your tanks and what AFV tactics do you use when playing 40k games? CG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 40k takes inspiration from a lot of eras - none of them modern. Keep in mind that 40k deals with combat, so they can move faster making the difference ratio not quite as bad. Tanks fight with infantry support, they still have the bigger guns and the like but essentially they're moving weapons platforms. As you'd expect they need infantry to help protect them from closing melta and assault etc. My tanks do just that - the bigger guns on a moving platform. They do most of the heavy lifting and the infantry tackle threats and claim objectives etc usually. Unless there's a particular need a tank won't go far without support, whether it be infantry or something else (e.g. Sentinels can do the same job). Fast vehicles like Hellhounds can go hunting alone, but they're for intercepting threats or providing obstacles rather than taking/holding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Tanks in 40K, especially the Guard, are just fire platforms. They don't too well at holding ground because they're vulnerable to CC, and our Heavy tanks are especially inept at rushing to put pressure on an opponent, or to get into range. You won't really blitzkrieg with them effectively. The Guard tanks are, as you say, really just there to deal with problems the infantry can't, (i.e., everything.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steellegionnaire85 Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 I use my punishes and hell hounds in a blitz. They usually are the distraction while my vets claim objectives. I usually play larger games so I have more on the table then most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Any time you compare the mechanics of a tabletop fantasy wargame to a historical reality, you are bound to come to a faulty conclusion. Hell, the mechanics of 40k don't agree with the fluff of 40k, so how can it be expected to correlate to anything in the real word? I play the hell out of some blitzkrieg with my mechanized deathwing. Roll 18" on turn one, assault out of the tank on turn two under overwatch of the tank's guns. It is absolutely possible to play a Blitzkrieg-style list with guard. Demolishers and eradicators are assault tanks, I suppose the Punisher qualifies, as well. Add in some chimeras for "objective secured," armored sentinels for tarpitting units that can glance AV10 to death in melee, and perhaps a few hellhounds (or hellhound variants), and you have a viable Blitz. Especially now that you only get one grenade per squad in melee! If by blitz, you mean move 48" and still shoot, then...no, no blitz. But in a standard game, by forgoing shooting, a non-Russ tank can touch the enemy's backline in two moves, and a Russ can do so by the end of the game without losing the ability to fire its main gun. Blitzkrieg tactics are certainly possible in 40k, they're just most often applied by bikes and beasts, not tanks. /edit/ And drop pod lists? What are they, if not vertical Blitzkrieg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Uveron Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 But in a standard game, by forgoing shooting, a non-Russ tank can touch the enemy's backline in two moves, and a Russ can do so by the end of the game without losing the ability to fire its main gun. Unless your running the Conquerer, in some places its a Fast Tank.. so moving crazy speeds is a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galron Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Um tanks in 40k, especially those of the guard are based on WW1 tech, not ww2. I think space marine tanks are more modern in base thought process as they can move and fire their main weapons effectively unlike guard tanks which essentially have a big cannon on top with large crews similar to WW1 tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Um tanks in 40k, especially those of the guard are based on WW1 tech, not ww2. I think space marine tanks are more modern in base thought process as they can move and fire their main weapons effectively unlike guard tanks which essentially have a big cannon on top with large crews similar to WW1 tanks. That's totally, 100%, an aesthetic comparison, not a technological one. The crew size relates to the number of weapons, not primitive technology. A Cold War tank has a crew of 3-4, depending on whether or not it has an autoloader (a 4th crewman as a loader is not only faster, it provides an extra set of peon hands for maintenance, which itself is simplified by the absence of a finicky robotic loader. A Leman Russ with no sponsons might have a crew of only four, including loader, hull gunner, diver and commander (there is almost certainly only one man in the turret, with only one hatch, so the tank commander likely fires the main gun). A vindicator is not more technologically advanced than a Leman Russ Demolisher. Every tank gun the marines have, other than the demolisher cannon, is a heavy weapon, not an ordnance weapon, and certainly not a turret-mounted ordnance weapon. If you gave the marines turret-mounted ordnance and AV14 armor, they'd be under the same move/shoot restrictions. The fact is, they're operating from the same technological base as the guard, but choosing weapon designs that emphasize maneuver over firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 With the power creeping arms race I feel tanks are due for an update... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steellegionnaire85 Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 World War Two tanks had crews of 5 same as modern tanks. Commander, gunner, loader, driver, and assistant driver. So I can't see that argument. The cannon on modern tanks dwarf that of both the first and second world War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Apparently British tanks still have the same crew size: Gunner, Loader, Driver, and Commander. Having sat in a Centurion and Chieftain - and been told that the inside of the Challenger ain't too dissimilar - I can't imagine them having an extra dude. That said, that is a tank without sponsons or bow guns. You've likely got an extra man for each of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Based on the books I've read they've always had a gunner for each sponson plus one for the main gun who also operates the hull weapon. Then there's the driver and commander. So 3-5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterkho Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Leman russes if used right are still the best there is in 40k. Everythme i've used the cadia armored fist company my russes come out on top on a pile of casualties. tank commander and buddy with lascannons and vanquisher to take out any threat there is. eradicator with bolters and heavy flamer for those cover seeking cowards. a punisher with 3 bolters to clear out hordes. and the last tank is always the fun tank (demolisher, executioner or battle canon are all fine) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 World War Two tanks had crews of 5 same as modern tanks. Commander, gunner, loader, driver, and assistant driver. So I can't see that argument. The cannon on modern tanks dwarf that of both the first and second world War. Um...no. No "assistant driver" in modern tanks. crews of 3-4. And clearly you haven't heard of the KV-2 or IS-2 (Sonderkraftfahrzeug 186, as well, if a tank destroyer counts) if you think modern cannons dwarf older ones... Apparently British tanks still have the same crew size: Gunner, Loader, Driver, and Commander. Having sat in a Centurion and Chieftain - and been told that the inside of the Challenger ain't too dissimilar - I can't imagine them having an extra dude. That said, that is a tank without sponsons or bow guns. You've likely got an extra man for each of those. Being an Abrams tanker by trade...all the western late-Cold-War designs feature four man crews like the one you describe. Soviet tanks went with three man crews and an autoloader, with the consequence that NATO tanks had three times the rate of fire! Any decent loader can keep up with a rate of fire approaching 20 rounds per minute. As an officer, I was only made passingly familiar with a loader's duties, and I could manage 12 rounds a minute into the breech (assuming that the commander and gunner are constantly waiting for an "up" and ready to fire the instant the breech closes). Now, in a well-trained crew, the tank commander and the gunner work together so well, you'd think they'd just celebrated their 75th wedding anniversary, with the commander finding the next target while the gunner engages the current one. However, if anyone should be wounded, it's entirely possible to fight the tank with three men, you simply leave the commander's station empty...that has bearing on the Russ. There's only one hatch in the turret roof, and the turret is very small compared to late-20th century designs...this suggests very strongly that the tank commander serves as the turret gunner...so I'd suggest that the russ has a crew of three or four: driver, loader, commander, and bow gunner. Theoretically, it could be two, with the driver operating the bow gun and with an autoloader, although in 40k, that "autoloader" would take the form of a servitor, and I'd consider that a crew member, besides which the dual hatches on the front of the hull suggest that two crew members would be interested in escaping from the burning wreck...As for the loader, he'll just have to bail out of the commander's hatch after said commander has cleared it...the price of being the most junior member of the crew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 In terms of the crew size for a Leman Russ..... ....don't forget in the 40k universe that tech is often steampunkian or almost victorian. They talk about the macro cannons of Imperial Battleships being loaded by thousands of sailors lifting shells with their heads together and placing them in the barrels. I imagine that Leman Russes would have more crew than we 21st Century iPhone-toting folks would find practical. Probably: -Commander -Driver (forward controls) -Driver (reverse controls) -Turret Gunner -Turret Loader -Hull weapon Gunner -Hull weapon Loader -Sponson 1 Gunner -Sponson 1 Loader -Sponson 2 Gunner -Sponson 2 Loader -Pintle Gunner (possibly seperate from Commander) For a possible total of 12 bodies crammed in there. I am slightly exaggerating, of course. The ultimate power (militarily, industrially, technologically) of the Imperium is the masses of humanity itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenPlasma Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 What about the 12" move Baneblade variants, with Thunderblitz? They seem considerably more modern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderHall Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 In Imperial Armour Volume 1 it says Leman Russ have a Commander, Driver, Gunner, Loader and 2 sponson gunners on the technical information table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 In Imperial Armour Volume 1 it says Leman Russ have a Commander, Driver, Gunner, Loader and 2 sponson gunners on the technical information table. So...no sponsons means a crew of four...and the "gunner" would be for the bow weapon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Sounds about right tbh. In Angel of Fire, the Baneblade is described as basically having a Command and Control suite with dedicated Radio Operator, Driver, Commander, a sub-Commaner IIRC, a couple of engineers, and a gunner for each sponson. Can't remember how many operated the main cannon or Demolishe though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Nobody is gonna mention the good* ol' Malcador? Sure it might not have a 360 degree turret, and the engine is a bit finicky but it's a big beast and I just love it so. Back it up with either infantry or some light vehicles (sentinels are good for this) and it can perform fairly well. *results may vary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pounder Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Sorry to take this discussion in another direction. As we're talking tanks, I was hoping to get your expert opinions on which was the best Leman Russ variant to start with. I like the look of Annhilator from Forge World, with Muti Melta sponsons and hull Lascannon. Can it take them? Also how good are Demolishers and Devil Dogs? I'd like to know how best to deal with enemy armour (though please remember I'll be using the Deathrider CAD from the Siege of Vraks book) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steellegionnaire85 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 What do you face mainly enemy armour wise. I mean av 14-12 and who are your typical opponents. That helps us give advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pounder Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 OK, for the majority of games I play vs: Sisters of Battle (Mechanised), Imperial Fists with lots of Dreadnoughts, Khorne Daemon Kin with Chaos Marine and Imperial Knight allies, Grey Knights backed up by Imperial Knights, Only occasionally do I face AV14, I'm looking for a solution to armour and 2+ Saves. I have some cash coming to add a tank so I need it to be versatile. Please let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Well, meltas and lascannons can hurt any armour and pen 2+ Demolishers and vanquishers too if I remember right. Trouble with demo is getting that close to scary things like knights... luckily they nerf all grenades so getting close to infantry outside of melta guns isn't so bad anymore... Plasmacutioner can handle the Ap2 end, and is pretty good at slagging av12 or lower, but it can glance av13.. That's just off the top of my head from the arm chair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steellegionnaire85 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 If you took pask in a punisher with two buddies in exterminator with Las cannon hull minutes that's pretty nasty. It's a lot of points that could pay off. 8 strength 7 twin linked shots three Las cannon shots and 20 shots with the chance of rending Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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