Militarum Tempestus Scion Hotshot vs Plasma [math]

[Emicus]

 

Which does bring up, of course, the question of which one deals the most damage over the whole game? Plasma, for example, are probably only gonna get one round off before they are rage killed. 10 man hotshot las squad, sadly, will probably suffer a similar fate, because people do rate that AP3 pretty highly, maybe more than it deserves. On the other hand, if you're skilled, you can use it as a distraction carnifex which will be vaguely annoying to kill. T3 4+ may not exactly be the great, but with 10 wounds, you might force that riptide to look your way. In the meantime, he discovers you were only distracting his firepower to get punisher Pask into place. Then he discovers that the Tempestor is, in fact, Creed, and the scion squad is a Baneblade. CRRREEEEEED!!!

 

Not sure how AP3 weapons threaten a Riptide, though, and Riptides wouldn't be committed to killing T3 4+ targets.

 

In the context of Riptide smiting Scions the word "committing" gets a different meaning. I mean it's just 1 shooting phase, hardly a commitment :p

 

​On another note, can I just mention that this discussion and number-crunching has really re-lit my passion for Militarum Tempestus? I've even started building a Taurox (Prime)!

[Doctor Perils]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion, but your initial argument is flawed. You wish to show your friend that the Scions are no better off then Chaos Space Marines in terms of weaponry. Yet to show that, you tell him that you have good access to a more powerful weapon then your base weapon ?

 

Granted, you have indeed shown that Plasma is better (in some cases) then hot-shots, but that's not where your discussion started. So let's run the math for the trusty bolter against the Hot-shot, as that is a better comparison.

 

Bolter on Marine vs MEQ

24" => 5x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=0.556 wounds

18" => 5x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=0.556 wounds

12" => 10x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (10*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=1.111 wounds

09" => 10x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (10*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=1.111 wounds

 

HotShot on Scion vs MEQ

24" => 0x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (0*50%*33.33%*100%)=0 wounds

18" => 5x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*50%*33.33%*100%)=0.833 wounds

12" => 5x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*50%*33.33%*100%)=0.833 wounds

09" => 10x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (10*50%*33.33%*100%)=1.667 wounds

 

Now I can't remember the prices of Scions, but from these stats, we can actually draw some worthwhile conclusions:

• At 24" or between 9 and 12, you're better off with a bolter in the hands of a space marine
• However, at 18 and 9 inches, based on these stats alone, hot shots are better then bolters (against MEQ)
• Therefore, at shorter ranges, Scions could be though of as better then Chaos Marines
• However, these stats don't take into account how deadly a marine is going to be at close combat compared to scions, or how the scions are a lot more fragile then marines

So, now, I believe that you are indeed right to tell your friend to suck it up, as hot-shots are only really better then bolters at such a close range that they are going to be charged in the next turn, and therefore get torn to pieces.

But you have to remember to compare the comparable !

[Emicus]

 

Sorry I'm late to the discussion, but your initial argument is flawed. You wish to show your friend that the Scions are no better off then Chaos Space Marines in terms of weaponry. Yet to show that, you tell him that you have good access to a more powerful weapon then your base weapon ?

 

Granted, you have indeed shown that Plasma is better (in some cases) then hot-shots, but that's not where your discussion started. So let's run the math for the trusty bolter against the Hot-shot, as that is a better comparison.

 

Bolter on Marine vs MEQ

24" => 5x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=0.556 wounds

18" => 5x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=0.556 wounds

12" => 10x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (10*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=1.111 wounds

09" => 10x S4 Ap5 shots at BS4 against T4 Sv3+ => (10*66.67%*50%*33.33%)=1.111 wounds

 

HotShot on Scion vs MEQ

24" => 0x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (0*50%*33.33%*100%)=0 wounds

18" => 5x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*50%*33.33%*100%)=0.833 wounds

12" => 5x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (5*50%*33.33%*100%)=0.833 wounds

09" => 10x S3 Ap3 shots at BS3 against T4 Sv3+ => (10*50%*33.33%*100%)=1.667 wounds

 

Now I can't remember the prices of Scions, but from these stats, we can actually draw some worthwhile conclusions:

• At 24" or between 9 and 12, you're better off with a bolter in the hands of a space marine
• However, at 18 and 9 inches, based on these stats alone, hot shots are better then bolters (against MEQ)
• Therefore, at shorter ranges, Scions could be though of as better then Chaos Marines
• However, these stats don't take into account how deadly a marine is going to be at close combat compared to scions, or how the scions are a lot more fragile then marines

So, now, I believe that you are indeed right to tell your friend to suck it up, as hot-shots are only really better then bolters at such a close range that they are going to be charged in the next turn, and therefore get torn to pieces.

But you have to remember to compare the comparable !

 

​

My reasoning for showing that Plasma is better than Hotshot was simply to show that "But you have Hotshots, Hotshots are good" is not in any way the reason you'd take Scions. That's not necessarily why I feel Scions are worse off than Chaos (and to be honest, GW should simply update all the codexes, it's not a "We'll do yours but ignore the other guys" thing).

 

​And a straight-up comparison is a little difficult, no? Why CSM? Why not Cultists, or Khorne Berserkers? Or Nurgle Marines? They're all Troops in one way or another. This was originally my crux for saying Scions are worse off than Chaos, simply because they have more than four units (five if you count Command) in the entire book.

 

​It's as if you took the recent CSM Start Collecting! box, added 1 more unit and called it a Codex - without even bothering to add relics.

========================================================================================================

 

​Math

Unfortunately your calculations are incorrect. Scions have a Ballistic Skill of 4, not 3. In addition you have an illegal weapon choice on your Scion Primes (sergeants) as they have a 6" pistol rather than rifle.

 

​As for cost a 10man CSM unit is 140 versus 10man Scions for 130 points - fairly comparable I think. CSM have higher WS, S, T, I, LD and Save in addition to a Pistol meaning they can charge without forgoing shooting whereas Scions have the better AP gun and MTC (Deep Strike notwithstanding). Both units have Frag and Krak grenades.

 

​10 CSM vs 10 Scions, 24", 18", 12" ,9" ,6", w/cover and w/o cover.

​

 

24"

​Scions: Nothing.

Chaos: 2.2 Wounds.

 

18"

​Scions: 2 Wounds.

​Chaos: 2.2 Wounds.

 

12"

​Scions: 2 Wounds.

Chaos: 4.4 Wounds (with Rapid-Fire).

 

9"

Scions: 4 Wounds (with Rapid-Fire).

Chaos: 4.4 Wounds (with Rapid-Fire).

 

6"

​Scions: 4.22 Wounds (with Rapid-Fire)

​Chaos: 4.4 Wounds (with Rapid-Fire) or likely 2.2 Wounds (with Pistol) and Charge to both silence the Scion guns and to massacre them utterly with superior stat-line.

 

On Cover

​If either unit is in decent terrain (ruin, 4+ save) the CSM can halve all Wounds taken. The Scions have no benefit aside from adding 2" to the CSM charge distance.

 

​If either unit is in some terrain (5+ save) the CSM reduce all wounds by 32% whereas the Scions again do not benefit aside from minimal charge protection.

 

In summary

​We see that CSM (or rather, Bolters) win over Scions (Hotshots) at all ranges except for 6" when factoring for the 10 point difference between the units (7% - Bolters lose by 2% at 6"). If there is any kind of terrain involved this bolter dominance is only exacerbated, while also winning at 6".

 

 

​

 

[GreenPlasma]

At 18", you would definitely want to use the Sniper/Pinning Order. You'll stack on 3W, there's a 38% to pick out the Champion, and if so at LD8 there's a 48% chance they'll fail either their Pinning or Morale Check.

 

Remember, they are a scalpel army. Your advantage is hitting first with force multipliers like Orders and DS.

 

Those AP3 Lasguns get a lot more scary when they're overloading a flank without warning, and if easily wiping out a Scion Squad in assault means you're going to eat a full strength Volleygun Salvo in your next turn with no cover.

 

They're not the strongest in a straight-up fight. But if you're playing this army, you need to take the motto to heart. 'Who Dares, Wins' ;)

[Doctor Perils]

 

Unfortunately your calculations are incorrect. Scions have a Ballistic Skill of 4, not 3. In addition you have an illegal weapon choice on your Scion Primes (sergeants) as they have a 6" pistol rather than rifle.

 

 

Ah, I was wondering why I wasn't getting the same numbers as you ^^ I see I hadn't fully understood your argument, as I read it like you were trying to show that even with hot-shot guns Stormtroopers were worse off then Chaos Marines X)

 

I feel you on the codex not being that good in terms of size and diversity, and they should have relics, but I have to be honest by saying that I don't know if the Tempestus Scions deserve much more then a mini-dex. I already feel that there was a massive leap in quantity of rules and diversity afforded to them between previous editions and their current one (considering they only got one unit before - two if you count inquisitiorial stormtroopers). (And obviously GW should update a few more of their things quicker, at least with FAQs/Erratas, but these seem to be just round the corner)

 

However, Chaos is little more then a joke at the moment. Considering that in the fluff they are shown as the big bad guys, and that therefore most Chaos Marine players started playing them to be the big bad guys, so I don't know if it's quite fair to say that the first ever Stormtroopers codex (which was obviously always going to have teething problems) which had masses of new info and rules for them have it worse off then Chaos Marines, whose codices seem to be in a downward spiral of regression (according to these boards). It's only normal that CSM should have more diversity then Stormtroopers as they are a much larger faction: if you count Stormtroopers and Astra Militarum, the diversity is comparable to Chaos Marines I think. Of course, when used as Inquisitorial troops, that's a different matter...

Of course, there are other factions who suffer in the same kinds of ways :(

 

 

 

A straight up comparison is never going to be absolutely correct, however many maths factors you take into account. I just thought you weren't making the correct comparison for your argument (which it turns out you were) - I tried to make the same kind of comparison as you is all :)

Also, the Base Chaos Space Marines is the most logical comparison point, as they are supposed to be the mainstay unit of the majority of CSM armies, as opposed to the other units you mentioned. What's more, Plague Marines are the same as Normal CSM when shooting, and both Berserkers and Cultists will perform far more poorly, which is only normal as "elite shooting" isn't their battlefield role.

 

Thanks for the math correction, I get your point even more clearly now :)

 

Funnily enough, I think this shows in some measure that both Chaos Marines and Scions would like to exchange their weapons :P

[WarriorFish]

Just a reminder to keep this within the context of the topic please, I don't want to see it straying. Thanks.

[Trevak Dal]

...The "you have ap3 guns" is on par with how people see tau fire warriors "strength 5 shooting, 30" range!!" (Back in fifth where you couldn't rapid fire at half range or 15" and couldn't move and shoot).

 

 

No the greatest strength is that they are Loyalist and can through allies gain a superior force.

 

You take out allies and have a straight up, no super heavies, gargantuan creatures, or D weapons or good unit spam and I can fight any foe with good spirit and confidence in my Csms.

 

Otherwise it kind of goes like the Gears of War trailers go for my boys.

 

I still love my Helljumpers though, my favorite Killteam.

[march10k]

Who Dares Wins is a nice enough motto, my boys (across armies and systems) roll with Nex Circumduit (death surrounds)...so don't sell your lives cheap, boys!

[cracklingvoice]

I think it's common knowledge among IG players that Stormtroopers are not really worth their points. On the other hand, a squad of Chaos Marines have access to a host of options that can make them better (Marks being one). The MT codex by itself is a bad joke, while the CSM codex is just badly outdated. Given that C:CSM is still waiting on an update, this isn't a great time to make those comparisons.

 

I'm really not a fan of Plasma, as Gets Hot! is a risk I don't like having in my army. Whenever I do field Stormtroopers, they will be carrying Melta instead. It's reliable and fits better with their "strike hold" style. They're supposed to go in and kill things quickly before the regular grunts show up, not slog through protracted battles like a Marine does.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I use tonnes of Plasma. The risk is fairly minimal, so it's good to go IMO.

[Vel'Cona]

Does the new MT formation (Hellrain Brigade) help to push the HSL back into usefulness?  I mean, Gets Hot! and the lowish strength are still problems but being able to recycle the TS squad seems pretty stronk in my book.

[WarriorFish]

I wouldn't say so, this is more of an overall buff to Stormies. Plus the ability to rain special weapons repeatedly would be the strongest gain I reckon.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Does the new MT formation (Hellrain Brigade) help to push the HSL back into usefulness?  I mean, Gets Hot! and the lowish strength are still problems but being able to recycle the TS squad seems pretty stronk in my book.

 

Gets Hot on Hotshot Lasguns? They don't have Gets Hot normally, does the formation give them that? (If so, that's an awful formation.)

[Emicus]

It doesn't. The Hellrain Brigade allows the Scion Troop unit to recycle into ongoing reserves upon death as long as the Commissar is alive. "Calling reinforcements", with all upgrades retained.

 

And Hotshots don't get hot, even with their name :)

[ThatOneMarshal]

If they have scions guns the same profile as the skitarii Rangers I think they would be waaay better. S4 AP 4 30 range.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Eh, but then you lose AP3, which is a really nice thing to have. Guard Infantry don't get many ways of dealing with a 3+ Armour Save. There's plenty for 4+, though.

[Kilofix]

Hmm I may need to reconfigure my Commands to all Volley. At least the ones that are not Suicide Drop Melta.

[duz_]

Despite the cost command squad is best with max plasma so they can benefit from 4-5 plasma weapons with PE or TL

 

I prefer a 6-7 man base squad. Position them near the CCS for the sniper order. Way better than HSVG. The HSVG range + salvo makes them extremely limited on what are meant to be fast mobile units.

[Lysere]

Think of HSVG as 2 shot 12" range weapons with a strength boost that get double shots and range if you happen to not move.

[duz_]

The problem with that is if you don't kill what's in that 12" range they will assault you next turn and you will most likely not survive

 

I'd be more open to the HSVG if it's range was 36" and thus paired with the HSLG better.

[GreenPlasma]

Hmm I may need to reconfigure my Commands to all Volley. At least the ones that are not Suicide Drop Melta.

You might want to run them on the regular squads. 2x Volleyguns still put out a ton of AP3 firepower once they go firm, and it's cheaper to lose riflemen than special weapons while you're getting into position. You can also take a larger squad if it's needed, making it harder to knock out the Volleyguns behind the rifles.

 

You still need to worry about facing CC, but that's a different issue.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's not really that hard for an opponent to kill a Scion squad if they need to, though.

[Lysere]

The problem with that is if you don't kill what's in that 12" range they will assault you next turn and you will most likely not survive

 

I'd be more open to the HSVG if it's range was 36" and thus paired with the HSLG better.

Unless you are attacking an enemy at the very edge of your range you'll be in charge range already so the volley gun won't change that. In fact it gives you 3 more inches that the hot shots double tap range.

 

Just use cover to slow the enemy and dakka them to death.

[Kilofix]

It's not really that hard for an opponent to kill a Scion squad if they need to, though.

I intend on using the starter set's Formation to keep brining back Scion Squads

 

Something like 4 or 5 sets of Command, bare bones Taurox (also Volleys) and Squad.

 

Now it's just a question of Plasma or Volley on Command and Squad.

 

Edit- I'm still thinking Plasma on Squad since they will be moving and are expandable. And Volley on Command that will be static and hiding.

[CoffeeGrunt]

If the Commissar is alive tho.