Common errors when writing Space Marine characters

[Welcheren]

So I thought this might be helpful to fan-fiction writers, especially new and growing writers but (I suspect) to several others as well. Just for the sake of discussion:

 

What would you say are the most common pitfalls when writing an individual, or small group of Space Marine characters? What are some of the stock tropes you've encountered that should be avoided? What ideas have you discovered that might work, but only if handled with incredible care and forethought? 

 

Maybe this could help some emerging ideas from the community.

 

Sincere apologies if this topic has been broached elsewhere before (barring the do and don't for DIY chapters on the Liber).

[Cpt_Reaper]

The one thing I see is Space Marines are either too human or not human enough. We all know the "they sacrificed their humanity to save it" thing but Astartes still have hopes, aspirations and feelings. This can create great scenes. For example in Brothers of the Snake the main characters are asked to "mingle". This of course confuses the Astartes as they have no idea what such a term means.

 

Asmodai in the Legacy of Caliban is a good example of the other end of Astartes emotion. He's mad. Really mad. Discovering your chocolate chip cookie is raisin on your birthday mad. His rage is a force of nature, his driving desire to vent that rage on all who oppose him and would sully his honour.

 

In both cases the Astartes are human enough for the reader to get what they are experiencing, but lacking humanity to the point where you can feel it without beating the reader over the head going "LOOK HOW WEIRD THIS GUY IS!"

[Carrack]

I struggle with the power level of space marines. On one hand I have to consider the super human abilities implanted into the fittest of aspirants, and the insane levels of training, the very best of equipment, and the hard to comprehend longevity of a space marine. On the other hand, guardsmen, xenos, even cultists, are dangerous, and a space marine shouldn't wade through them as if they weren't even there. This dilemma is even worse with named characters for me, because I need them to survive if they are to be developed at all, and in the grim, dark, future, there is only war, which realistically, is not the safest of activities.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Well I've found the Deathwatch rpg helps in that regard. It tells you how much a Space Marine can lift, how fast they run and how far they can jump.

[Welcheren]

This sounds to me like a wonderful guideline: human enough to understand what the character experiences, but lacking humanity to the point where you can just feel it. I guess we should never be able to fully associate with them, even if we can comprehend them. (Seems my quote button isn't working.)

 

Another author who, in my opinion, really balances the might of a Space Marine against other factions is Guy Haley: cf. Death of Integrity for TDA vs. genestealers and Eternal Crusader for Black Templars vs. Orks. In both cases the balance is (to me ) handled masterfully.

[Beta galactosidase]

The one thing I see is Space Marines are either too human or not human enough. We all know the "they sacrificed their humanity to save it" thing but Astartes still have hopes, aspirations and feelings. This can create great scenes. For example in Brothers of the Snake the main characters are asked to "mingle". This of course confuses the Astartes as they have no idea what such a term means.

 

 

In both cases the Astartes are human enough for the reader to get what they are experiencing, but lacking humanity to the point where you can feel it without beating the reader over the head going "LOOK HOW WEIRD THIS GUY IS!"

Social situations and anxiety are a really good route, because they are in social situations all the time; they are in a fraternal order. They always want to be the best/most helpful to their chapter and brothers. They will always be thinking about whether their sergeant thinks they are useful or will rely on someone else.

 

 

 

I struggle with the power level of space marines. On one hand I have to consider the super human abilities implanted into the fittest of aspirants, and the insane levels of training, the very best of equipment, and the hard to comprehend longevity of a space marine. On the other hand, guardsmen, xenos, even cultists, are dangerous, and a space marine shouldn't wade through them as if they weren't even there. This dilemma is even worse with named characters for me, because I need them to survive if they are to be developed at all, and in the grim, dark, future, there is only war, which realistically, is not the safest of activities.

 

You can assume that a lot of their power level is active and something you can write about. That is, if they are unkillable it is because they kill faster than the enemy, so combat is this constant rush to get everything right, because if one marine's shot isn't perfect, that guardsman will pull the trigger on that lascannon, and will kill that other battle brother.

 

They also get part of their power from being able to keep fighting after being wounded, so you should let them get wounded a lot. Like, other troops would have to do without a wounded soldier and also fight less efficiently as they stop to wait for a medic/medevac out just slow down.

[bluntblade]

I haven't dipped a toe in 40k-era yet, so I guess I can get away with writing slightly more human Astartes. I'm not sure what counts as an average Space Marine, but was always struck by the comment that Loken is very "human" for an Astartes.

 

As for how they treat combat, I suggest you consider the circumstances of each battle. Some battles against advanced human cultures or powerful xenos can be frantic affairs where everything needs to be perfect.

 

However some opponents just can't offer much of a challenge, and the Astartes might not bother to put much effort in beyond what's needed. That can be used in a way that develops your characters. Horus Rising and The First Heretic have two such battles. In the first, Loken finds the experience miserable and is moved to wonder why on earth the enemy are still fighting. In the other, a Word Bearer displays nothing but contempt for his opponents, and is actively spiteful in the way he kills.

[Welcheren]

I haven't dipped a toe in 40k-era yet, so I guess I can get away with writing slightly more human Astartes. I'm not sure what counts as an average Space Marine, but was always struck by the comment that Loken is very "human" for an Astartes.

 

As for how they treat combat, I suggest you consider the circumstances of each battle. Some battles against advanced human cultures or powerful xenos can be frantic affairs where everything needs to be perfect.

 

However some opponents just can't offer much of a challenge, and the Astartes might not bother to put much effort in beyond what's needed. That can be used in a way that develops your characters. Horus Rising and The First Heretic have two such battles. In the first, Loken finds the experience miserable and is moved to wonder why on earth the enemy are still fighting. In the other, a Word Bearer displays nothing but contempt for his opponents, and is actively spiteful in the way he kills.

 

Loken is pretty useful character for the precarious balance between human and transhuman. I enjoyed his interaction with the scribe (her name escapes now). His awkwardness around her compared to his easy interaction with his brothers (prior to his discovery of the lodges at least) offer interesting counter points. 

 

One thing I would not use from Loken, however, is his tendency to ask about the use of an Astartes when conflict ends. I doubt that any Space Marine in the present era considers this a feasible outcome. I find it very difficult to imagine them really believing that they will see peace in their own lifetimes. 

 

 

 

The one thing I see is Space Marines are either too human or not human enough. We all know the "they sacrificed their humanity to save it" thing but Astartes still have hopes, aspirations and feelings. This can create great scenes. For example in Brothers of the Snake the main characters are asked to "mingle". This of course confuses the Astartes as they have no idea what such a term means.

 

 

In both cases the Astartes are human enough for the reader to get what they are experiencing, but lacking humanity to the point where you can feel it without beating the reader over the head going "LOOK HOW WEIRD THIS GUY IS!"

Social situations and anxiety are a really good route, because they are in social situations all the time; they are in a fraternal order. They always want to be the best/most helpful to their chapter and brothers. They will always be thinking about whether their sergeant thinks they are useful or will rely on someone else.

 

 

 

I struggle with the power level of space marines. On one hand I have to consider the super human abilities implanted into the fittest of aspirants, and the insane levels of training, the very best of equipment, and the hard to comprehend longevity of a space marine. On the other hand, guardsmen, xenos, even cultists, are dangerous, and a space marine shouldn't wade through them as if they weren't even there. This dilemma is even worse with named characters for me, because I need them to survive if they are to be developed at all, and in the grim, dark, future, there is only war, which realistically, is not the safest of activities.

 

You can assume that a lot of their power level is active and something you can write about. That is, if they are unkillable it is because they kill faster than the enemy, so combat is this constant rush to get everything right, because if one marine's shot isn't perfect, that guardsman will pull the trigger on that lascannon, and will kill that other battle brother.

 

They also get part of their power from being able to keep fighting after being wounded, so you should let them get wounded a lot. Like, other troops would have to do without a wounded soldier and also fight less efficiently as they stop to wait for a medic/medevac out just slow down.

 

 

 

Thanks curvacious. These are concrete guidelines that should be really useful. 

 

Picking up from using wounds as a method of illustrating Astartes power levels, a related tool could be specialised weaponry. That is, you create a plausible and compelling reason to have a group of Marines kitted out with a very specific loadout, with clearly established limitations. Introduce unexpected enemies with frighteningly precise counter measures for this loadout (the obvious example being CCW vs longrange weapons), and exhibit the Astartes' initiative.

 

Question on the wounds issue: any advice (from anyone) on how to write Astartes alongside Imperial allies, without turning the allies straw men whose only purpose is to cast a glow on the Space Marines.   

[bluntblade]

Mersadie Oliton is the name that's escaping you. About the first thing I did for BotL was come up with a counterpart remembrancer.

 

I haven't really played with particular weapon loadouts, other than portraying a force using particular combinations to try and minimise the downsides. Although I am gradually working on a piece where melee-focused Astartes find a mass of cyborg-zombie things coming at them... and the things are covered in phosphex which means getting hit is a death sentence. So what was previously a hard-fought advance turns into a horrible, scrambling retreat.

 

As for that last issue, kinda grappling with it myself with regard to the Mechanicus. So far the only solution I've found is to play up their importance to the Crusade, and the sheer difference between their culture and Terra's.

[Welcheren]

Mersadie Oliton is the name that's escaping you. About the first thing I did for BotL was come up with a counterpart remembrancer.

 

Although I am gradually working on a piece where melee-focused Astartes find a mass of cyborg-zombie things coming at them... and the things are covered in phosphex which means getting hit is a death sentence. So what was previously a hard-fought advance turns into a horrible, scrambling retreat.

 

Mersadie! There we go.

 

The cyborg zombies line sounds really cool.

[Servant of Dante]

Mersadie Oliton is the name that's escaping you. About the first thing I did for BotL was come up with a counterpart remembrancer.

 

I haven't really played with particular weapon loadouts, other than portraying a force using particular combinations to try and minimise the downsides. Although I am gradually working on a piece where melee-focused Astartes find a mass of cyborg-zombie things coming at them... and the things are covered in phosphex which means getting hit is a death sentence. So what was previously a hard-fought advance turns into a horrible, scrambling retreat.

 

As for that last issue, kinda grappling with it myself with regard to the Mechanicus. So far the only solution I've found is to play up their importance to the Crusade, and the sheer difference between their culture and Terra's.

Well, the would have been no Crusade without the forges of Mars (not to mention the God-Machines). Also, the Mechanicus has never been a part of the Imperium, they are a separate entity, bound to the Imperium by the treaty of Olympus Mons. So while I'm sure they listen to Imperium leaders, those leaders don't have a lot of actual authority over any given Tech-Priest (as far as I know).

[bluntblade]

The cyber-zombies were the idea of someone else on the project, I just ran with it

[Welcheren]

Hope the team pulls it off.

 

 

I just realised that I called Mersadie Oliton a scribe, instead of a remembrancer. Now the Chaplain wants a word...

 

In my defence I've been reading Patrick Rothfuss' Name of the Wind.

[bluntblade]

Me too. The actual story is a way off, as it's part of a larger whole that's expanding quite a bit.

 

For the meantime, I'm working on a siege story. Which is a good opportunity to ask a related question; are there any major issues people encounter when writing Techmarines?

[Welcheren]

Me too. The actual story is a way off, as it's part of a larger whole that's expanding quite a bit.

 

For the meantime, I'm working on a siege story. Which is a good opportunity to ask a related question; are there any major issues people encounter when writing Techmarines?

 

I cannot say that I have ever tried, but I imagine that one problem might striking a balance between a believably human character, while bending the character's thoughts along pedantically logical, even clinical patterns. In addition, there is the question of balancing technical knowledge with religious superstition - not unlike (I imagine) writing Iron Hands, Skitarii or Tech Priests.

 

For a more concrete response: I think Guy Haley (yeah, I know I drop his name quite often) write a nuanced and round character with Forgemaster Clastrin in Death of Integrity. 

 

 

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

[Xisor]

One thing I'm always a bit conscious of when *reading* Techmarines, is how far any author is going down an autistic sort of route with them. It's great to see characters done well on that front and get representation, in any fiction, but I'm also a bit aware that they could be doing quite a bit of misrepresenting, perpetuating unhelpful stereotypes rather than insights. Fortunately, I don't recall anything egregious that way - but I'd definitely be cautious of it (or rather, paranoid, but still end up doing it badly) myself if it comes up in any writing I manage.

 

There's a lot of stock stuff that comes with the Mechanicus generally (including, if they werre allies in any given story for a very long time, then it was almost certain that they were also secretly the baddies).

 

Fortunately, Techmarines are more often slightly bland but slightly intriguing side characters.

 

The main challenge, I suppose, is depicting their two notable features:

- distinct, very specialised expert knowledge (very functional as Marines otherwise?)

- markedly different culture from the rest of the Chapter

 

But, I think, if one keeps mainly to those two things as the major constraints on them - you're left with quite a wide scope for their characters and motivations. If you look at the aspiring techy in Sarah's "The Gildar Rift", then you see a well rounded, functioning character with a fairly compelling subplot away from the main story. It's a real treat.

 

Tangential to techmarines, but very siege related, 'Punisher' (if my memory seven right) that crops up brilliantly in "Legion of the Damned" is a great example of memorable and remarkable ways to do something fun and powerful with pretty functional things.

 

 

Punisher is the independently mobile Thunderfire cannon that shows its 'face' in quite an heroic, charming way.

 

 

Little touches like that can make a huge impression, for me.

[bluntblade]

The character I've got so far is largely motivated by the desire to become a Praevian, knowing that he's considered rather odd for it. But he rationalises this as, given that his Legion are siege specialists, it will allow him to play a greater role in what they do best. He's dismissed by some of his fellows as little more than a glorified mechanic, but while he cares little for the organic in general, he does value those who appreciate his work.

 

Given that the piece is meant to give a view of the "mechanism" of the Legion at work and the broader Crusade, I thought using a Techmarine for POV duties could be a nice way to do it.

 

Is the Gildar Rift a work on here?

[bluntblade]

I've got him pondering the nature of the (enhanced beastmen) enemies they're fighting, and considering how so many of his fellows just believe that a Techmarine loses any interest in the organic once he's had his training.

[Kelborn]

Well I've found the Deathwatch rpg helps in that regard. It tells you how much a Space Marine can lift, how fast they run and how far they can jump.

 

Though I haven't read everything from this thread, this is a very good clue. Haven't thought of that, thank you! :)

[bluntblade]

I've thought of one topic of discussion for when Techmarines get together: exceptional acts of engineering under fire. With just a little bellyaching about how no one else appreciates that clambering on top of a Land Raider to fix a turret, with shot and shrapnel fkying everywhere, demands just as much guts as going toe to toe with Orks.

[Welcheren]

That could be a very effective scene for humanising Techmarines, by illustrating that they are also subject to similar emotions than their rank and file brothers, although inflected in ways that, perhaps, make it less obvious and less recognisable.

 

It could work very well for illustrating the tensions engendered by stoic devotion to duty, against the all too human desire for honour and recognition - especially given how valuable the latter are to most Astartes.

 

Great idea.

[bluntblade]

Woflblade gave me the idea when he used that scenario as part of an action scene.

 

Which is partly why my guy dreams of being a Praevian. It'd be a chance for him to be right amongst it rather than tending to the artillery for months on end, only to miss out on the storming of every fortress

[Olis]

One thing I would say in regard to writing Space Marines is this - they are not paper cut-outs. When you write about Space Marines from the inside, either as a character or over-the-shoulder, remember that they have their own thoughts to a degree. They may not strictly be human any more but they are still cast from the same mold. They might have an obsession, a quirk, or a flaw. They may have a personal view that contrasts with their fellows (if it hasn't been brainwashed out of them already). They might have a personal goal in mind - maybe expressed as an Oath of Moment. Each is an individual that is more than their titles and accolades.

 

On the other hand, when you write about them from the outside looking in, focus more on their differences as astartes, the way they may differ from a mortal in simply performing regular tasks. Simple things like the need for bigger chairs and having little-to-no sleep for days or weeks if necessary. Even just their height can make them seem unreachable and even oddly alien to a character that's merely human. Especially so if such a person is aware of just how potent a marine can be.

 

But. Don't treat them like killing machines, even if that is a fundamental part of their existence. There will be problems for them to overcome (or not) and using them like an extension to their bolter is wasted potential. To put it another way: What, and who, is inside that armour? 

[bluntblade]

Very eloquently put.

[bluntblade]

Sometimes it can help to undercut stock tropes with regard to different roles. An Apothecary can be as cut-throat as any battle-brother, as Kargos of the World Eaters demonstrates. A Techmarine might yearn for human company despite his chosen path.

 

Don't just make them heroically stoic. A Space Marine can be that to a self-destructive degree, and that duality can be interesting to explore. Chris Wraight seems to like this; it comes up in a few of his books and forms a major character arc in Path of Heaven.