Hypothesising a BA Start Collecting! Set

[Damon Nightman]

I think we should start a petition to get Antodeniel a job at gw. At least we would have decent/fun(most important part) rules...

[Xenith]

People would still hate him: look at Mat Ward.

 

Anyway guys, stop being bitter. We aren't chaos. Adhere to the Blood Angels mystical steak that things can be changed for the better.

 

We are the original space marines +1. We will have our time again.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I think we should start a petition to get Antodeniel a job at gw. At least we would have decent/fun(most important part) rules...

Officialy, i'm a jobseeker.....and in France, i got advantages that are dreams to lot of US/UK peoples^^.

People would still hate him: look at Mat Ward.

Anyway guys, stop being bitter. We aren't chaos. Adhere to the Blood Angels mystical steak that things can be changed for the better.

We are the original space marines +1. We will have our time again.

You hate me . But i'm a good guy, i'm a real monk (Yes, for real, trust it or not). And i "master" all the codexes. (I read them all^^).

"that things can be changed for the better." =====> Be happy, for my special talents is "Improvement". (Just look once again at the Flesh Tearers supplements....i create near to nothing, but improved existing things....)

Our time will come, but only if you vote for me^^. (And not the weakest flank....that reference^^)

[Charlo]

Chaos we aren't. Let's not get the same rep indeed!

 

Don't make me dig up my old inspiration list of why we are awesome.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Sorry for the negative posts from this one, the red thirst took hold, and I had to meditate to reign back the black rage. I guess a lack luster reveal after all the cool speculation is really what bummed me out about it.

 

I wasn't looking for tons of rules or game breaking ones, I was hoping for something cool along the lines of the codex marines or space pups in terms of usability and versatility.

 

I know competitive players aren't going to use these formations, but trying to explain and recruit new players in is kind of hard to do when you start looking at the projected rules versus other starters boxes that have better rules.

 

I will however be working on modeling my Karlean from the starter box into a Sanguinary Priest in TDA since that's what they are going for. And I need another Baal Pred anyway. And I can always use more tactical marines!

 

Right then. Let us look for more positive posts and silver linings. Our armour looks better than our cousins anyways.

[Xenith]

You hate me . But i'm a good guy, i'm a real monk (Yes, for real, trust it or not). And i "master" all the codexes. (I read them all^^).

"that things can be changed for the better." =====> Be happy, for my special talents is "Improvement". (Just look once again at the Flesh Tearers supplements....i create near to nothing, but improved existing things....)

Our time will come, but only if you vote for me^^. (And not the weakest flank....that reference^^)

Not at all, and I'm sorry if it came across that way - by "still" I meant that no matter what you do as a games designer/rules writer, some people will hate you no matter what.

I feel you maybe get a bit preachy/play the victim sometimes, but that is from a place of passion and annoyance at the perceived slight, However, no one can doubt that you contribute a lot to this forum, and make it a better place for it. Your love for the BA, and the amount of talent you possess, the effort you put into making genuine looking updates, erratas and miniatures really adds to the environment.

[Omega-soul]

 

This is kind of a ridiculous assumption, after two games a new player wont know enough and probably won't be quick to disregard straight away.

You underestimate the first impression. It's a known thing - if you want a beginner to involve in a game - let him win (or at least feel the good taste about game)

Playing Blood angels is a struggle - creating a point when you can take advantage of all your special rules is a hard work that can easily be negated by dice roll.

The faction is hard to play. The whole set of units - terminator captain and baal is a bad choice (compare to other). And formation rules are worst. So what the joy for beginer?

 

We still have priests that grant a better FNP than wolves. Sure IH have it but we had it first. EVERY ONE of our models have Furious charge without a pre-requisite banner or formation bonus too, so pretty synonymous!

 

 

So what? difference betwen 5+/6+ is nothing to be brag about. Not to mention the Endurance power that give you 4+ FNP and Orks have a doctor that is the same in case of independent character giving FNP.

Every sister of battle have adamantium will - does this make them exellent against heavy-psychic lists?

You don't need Furious charge on deavstators or dreadnoughts. You need it only there where you plan your charge. In 5th edition we had no granted FC on units (Thirst don't count) - but still we had enough priests to cover all units that need this bonus.

FC is not that kind of special rule that need to be armywide.

 

We have great reserve manipulation and accurate deep strikes. We have army wide furious charge without upgrades. We have the most special jump troops of anyone. Ball Predator is arguably the best one. We can take a Dreadbought Troops choice. Our LoW is an absolute monster.

 

 

 

 

No - we are not - first of all - Descent of angels are very restrictive - in particular you don't reroll for drop-pods, terminators etc which are a great part of BA army. Second - every army have an access to comms relay - which is dirt cheap (in compare).

Moreover - eldar autarch, AM - navigators (or navy officier don't remember the name) that gives you a bonus for +1/-1 to your rolls which is better that usual reroll (not to mention it stacks with relay)

Perfect scatter? teleport homers/locators - ravenwing have this in stock, daemons have their instruments etc.

 

Special jump troops? to do best what? Jump pack itself is a lackluster to bikes. If we could.. i don't know - have devastators with jump pack - i would see that point - but our jump packers are close combat units - and bike is so much better at this - not to mention that DA and Whitescars know how to ignore dangerous terrain with their wargear - where our "professionals" broke their legs in first fence.

 

Baal pred - is worse even by standart of our own codex as fast predators and razorbacks are better/cheaper. With a price for 135 it's only a 40 point lower than Helldrake - but is nowhere near to fill this 'bike-wiping' niche.

 

Single dreadnought for 140 points as troops... for what? Most of the games he was shot to death (pun intended)

And speaking of LoW - have you met a full-clothed iron-hand chapter-master on bike? He cost a little bit more, and if he roll's statisticly right on first turn - he wreck's Dante's face.

 

The most argument that speaks for itself - popularity and quantity of players that goes to tournaments. And I'am talking this as we analyze the balance, rules and game mechanics behind our faction. I belive there are great amount of player that loves Blood angels. But that is about miniatures, art and fluff-side of faction - not our codex.

 

 

Do try to remember that not every rule made by GW is made for top-tier competetive play. It's as simple as that really, it's not their modus operandi. And the eldar one DOES have a restriction, it needs to be a farseer on jetbike, like ours needs to be a captain in TDA.

 

Well - I perfectly do understand that. But the opposite line of competetive is - intresting. If it's not competetive it should be intresting.

It's like a Harleqin warlord traits - these are intresting and fun.

This formation rule - are not intresting and not fun. The fact that Sanguinary priest negate whole purpose of that formation is overwhelming.

 

Finally - my whole concern about this formation - is a lost opportunity to really make things better. It was a great chance to make Baal playable while waiting for another dex.

So If they didn't use that chance to make things (AT THE VERY LEAST) intresting - i am losing my hope for next codex being good or intresting.

 

And it's not a complaint - I just point out that things being in current state. I don't hope for any changes up to end of this year. But those that we see (formation + FAQ) looks not so inspiring.

[Damon Nightman]

I've been wanting to play this game for literally over 10 years. When I finally played the real way at a shops this year, I requested a casual game explaining I am a new player with BA and want to have a good time learning the rules in the 40k FB group. Someone responded sounding happy to show me the ropes.

 

He showed up with tacs, Devs, and grav cents all kitted out with grav or plasma cannons and two Libbys. He cast invisibility on the cents immediately and destroyed a third of my army before I got to my first turn.

 

After the game I really debated never playing again after that terrible experience and only collecting models. I had waited almost 20 years since I first walked by a gw and have been into the lore somewhat obsessively for years now and I almost quit after that. Granted the guy I played against was friendly and said he wanted to introduce me to the real 40k, but clearly tailored his list to wreck a BA player even without invisiblity from the Libbys.

 

If someone who has literally considered finally playing 40k a dream come true almost quit after one bad experience, im sure a brand new guy without the background would very easily say "nope this is stupid, I'm done" after one game.

 

Feel free judge me for almost giving up, but it's the truth and I had already spent hundreds on models at that point. You really think someone who only spent 85 bucks wouldn't quit so easily after realizing how unfair the game is/ can be?

[Charlo]

I suppose. Different strokes for different folks.

 

If I'm honest I'm going to stop engaging into this thread, I'm tired of it. If its not angry it's cynical and I'm done with it.

 

Plus the set it out now, there is no more hypothesisng to be had. Sure, the rules are a bit meh but I'm sure we can look past it.

 

It's not like we've gotten a new codex that didn't have updates in or something!

[Canadian_F_H]

I will admit. I wouldn't have anything to do with 40k if I hadn't started playing it back in 98.

 

If I was faced with 40k the way it is today as a teenager in the 90s... no way.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm here for nostalgia. ..

[Damon Nightman]

I suppose. Different strokes for different folks.

 

If I'm honest I'm going to stop engaging into this thread, I'm tired of it. If its not angry it's cynical and I'm done with it.

 

Plus the set it out now, there is no more hypothesisng to be had. Sure, the rules are a bit meh but I'm sure we can look past it.

 

It's not like we've gotten a new codex that didn't have updates in or something!

Sorry not trying to be angry or cynical, just sharing an admittedly embarrassing story about my first game and how I almost gave up and trying to show it does matter what the rules are for a new player.

 

I think the problem is some of us are trying to make gw sound like the worst ever and others are trying to make it sound like they are great, which is leading to this "fighting" and "anger". When in reality gw is neither out to get us or specifically amazing, but just kinda okay and we got the short end of the stick recently.

 

Again sorry if I upset anyone or lead to more problems. I personally like debating things and it can come off as sounding very nasty or mean when in writing which is never my intention!

 

I really do appreciate your positivity charlo! Don't get discouraged just because most of us aren't as positive as you! Help us!

[Rafen IX]

My first reaction to the box set was 'awesome deal on those minis, and the rules aren't terrible either.' Sure they aren't amazing but we are Blood Angels we've been playing on hard mode for years. Our whole ethos is hope even in the darkest of hours, go out there and beat the privileged armies and each victory is earned so much more! You play the army you love.

 

For eleven hundred years, I have fought and I have seen the darkness in our galaxy. I have seen the vileness of the alien and the heresy of the mutant. I have witnessed the sin of possession. I have seen all the evil that the galaxy harbours, and I have slain all whose presence defiles the Emperor. I have seen what you will see. I have fought what you must fight, and I have slain what you must slay... so fear not and be proud, for we are the sons of Sanguinius, the protectors of Mankind. Aye, we are indeed the Angels of Death."

-Dante

[Frater Antodeniel]

My first reaction to the box set was 'awesome deal on those minis, and the rules aren't terrible either.' Sure they aren't amazing but we are Blood Angels we've been playing on hard mode for years. Our whole ethos is hope even in the darkest of hours, go out there and beat the privileged armies and each victory is earned so much more! You play the army you love.

 

Sorry to cut the hope, but i think that everyone in real life face enough "hard mode" to a least desiring that our hobby/game allow us some "Wings"....

 

I love my army, as much that i follow the rule that come alongside....but like in reality, when someone purposelly give you bad rules, you got angry....isn't what happened with the Brexit ? (EU gives poor european people bad rules, and so the first country lucky enough to voice is miscontent voted to Leave the EU....What will happen to GW ?....Personally, as an individual, i choose to not buy anything else that Blood Angels miniature, and will only allow myself to start another army when i can have fun with BA....this meaning that in the month ahead i will save hundreds euros on the Sylvaneth army i looked for...GW shoot himself into the foots....)

[Rafen IX]

Sorry you feel that way brother. I'm surprised someone with that quote on their profile thinks this despondently though lol

I enjoy this game, I enjoy my army (yes I wish just as much as you we get updated), I enjoy the friends I regularly play against. Am I upset that we are still languishing behind our cousins yes, will it effect me enjoying my games no.

R

[Frater Antodeniel]

Sorry you feel that way brother. I'm surprised someone with that quote on their profile thinks this despondently though lol

I enjoy this game, I enjoy my army (yes I wish just as much as you we get updated), I enjoy the friends I regularly play against. Am I upset that we are still languishing behind our cousins yes, will it effect me enjoying my games no.

R

 

"You win by surviving"

 

=> I still follow this rules. Few days ago, i ordered a Lost Patrol + BA get started, when randomly ending in front of my retailler shop. And i have already saved money for a future BA Assault Terminators and certainly a second BA get started. Plus, i still have Speeder to buy, and at least one Stormraven....etc.

 

But, since GW give me no "Vision" about future, no proof that my investment will be really "profitable", i wait, and by putting other investment project on waiting (the AOS sylvaneth army, for my personal exemple), GW loose money....plus, it isn't impossible that in the month ahead i loose the envy to buy a second/AOS army.....a total loses.

 

But if i find peoples who want to start the Hobby, i will council them boxes like the Militarum Tempestus, but will prevent them from taking armies like BA or C:CSM, telling them to wait a little to see if things move in a good way.....

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

You know, in France, when people, notably parents, agree to buy a Get Started set + the paint and brush coming with this....it is an investment....and if the Child cannot have fun when playing with his army, only because the first rule set that he got is quite the auto loose when comparing to other Get started set....he will feel cheated, the parents too, and so they will all end up with a Very Bad experience of the Warhammer hobby/game universe.....

 

A reason, why currently, i recommend to start, not with a Get Started set, but with either a Lost Patrol or a Silver Tower box.

[Omega-soul]

I hope that Carlo didn't take all that too seriously - it's just better know the real situation than live with rainbow dreams.

I am pretty confident about my BA abilities - i know the strenghs, the weaknesses and it helps me balance my games.

If it comes for me to play against say space wolfes - it wouldn't shock me that opponent have better close combat overall. My head will stay cool and it helps to take right decisions.

So my text-walls about this - to know things better with clear mind.

For example - not to keep this Baal predator close to captain compromising better position for slight chance to get hull point. Or that taking a 10 man tactical it would be better to combat squad them as this special rules works as bubble.

 

 

 

"You win by surviving"

 

A reason, why currently, i recommend to start, not with a Get Started set, but with either a Lost Patrol or a Silver Tower box.

 

Personally I would really recomend Betrayal at calth - it's a great tabletop game and very rich model set that fits even CSM player (any space marine player exept GK)

[Tyriks]

I don't see anything to gripe about here. We didn't lose anything, and we gained a cheap way to buy some units. This will be my next BA purchase, guaranteed, and I knew that before I knew what the formation was. This doesn't hurt that in any way.

[Xenith]

All I can say to Omega Soul and Antodeniel, is that they are not chaos players.

 

My main army was Thousand Sons, so when I see people complaining about Blood Angels receiving the short end of the stick, all I can do is roll my eyes and tell them to get a grip.

 

I've been waiting since 2007 to be able to have good rules for my Thousand Sons again. Since 2007, the rules have been unfluffy, not made sense, and made the leaders of my army pathetic weaklings with little to no actual psychic ability. The Blood Angels rules, while not on the level of Eldar, are a wondrous miracle by comparison. 

 

So please. Don't tell me we have to make a "Blood Angels venting" thread.

[Damon Nightman]

I don't think any of them are saying we are the worst off, just that this sucks. I think we all know others def have it worse. Can only the group with the worst possible situation vent? not the 2nd or the 3rd? sure maybe the 2nd and 3rd shouldn't complain more or pretend they have it worse than the 1st, imo at least. I think venting can be a good thing... Definitely not something anyone has to have, but maybe it wouldn't hurt... and from what i hear we are a pretty positive bunch generally speaking compared to other places, one venting thread can't hurt too much hopefully...

 

btw i hope your thousand sons get some cool rules when gw gets to Demon Magnus! 

[appiah4]

People would still hate him: look at Mat Ward.

 

Anyway guys, stop being bitter. We aren't chaos. Adhere to the Blood Angels mystical steak that things can be changed for the better.

 

We are the original space marines -1. We will have our time again for three months.

 

Fixed that for ya.

[Charlo]

Someone made a venting thread once, it was summarily shut down.

 

Just keep that in mind people because that is all this one seems to be becoming.

[Xenith]

 

People would still hate him: look at Mat Ward.

 

Anyway guys, stop being bitter. We aren't chaos. Adhere to the Blood Angels mystical steak that things can be changed for the better.

 

We are the original space marines -1. We will have our time again for three months.

 

Fixed that for ya.

 

 

Utter tosh. You have one data point for this, and one point does not make a trend. Talk to me again when our codex is the first released for 8th, and every subsequent codex gets mega formations and point reductions.

 

The 3rd Ed Codex BA was a mile better than C:SM as we had everything they had plus more, and we had very few SM players as a result. This persisted for a few years until C:SM 3.5 and 40k 4th ed came about, and you could make your own doctrines.

 

For 2 editions, Dark Angels were the test bed for new rules directions, and they got screwed over both times. They have a good codex now. We were the test bed for 7th edition style codexes. We'll get a new codex sometime.

 

Things go up and down. At least our book is internally balanced and consistent, and our main troop unit is actually useable (I'm looking at you, Chaos Space Marines).

 

I'm not saying things are amazing. Far from it, but get some perspective. It's toy soldiers,and all the crying and whining is only crying and whining to people that already know the issue. We have the codex, we know whats going on, and it's getting very annoying.

[appiah4]

 

 

People would still hate him: look at Mat Ward.

 

Anyway guys, stop being bitter. We aren't chaos. Adhere to the Blood Angels mystical steak that things can be changed for the better.

 

We are the original space marines -1. We will have our time again for three months.

 

Fixed that for ya.

 

 

Utter tosh. You have one data point for this, and one point does not make a trend. Talk to me again when our codex is the first released for 8th, and every subsequent codex gets mega formations and point reductions.

 

The 3rd Ed Codex BA was a mile better than C:SM as we had everything they had plus more, and we had very few SM players as a result. This persisted for a few years until C:SM 3.5 and 40k 4th ed came about, and you could make your own doctrines.

 

For 2 editions, Dark Angels were the test bed for new rules directions, and they got screwed over both times. They have a good codex now. We were the test bed for 7th edition style codexes. We'll get a new codex sometime.

 

Things go up and down. At least our book is internally balanced and consistent, and our main troop unit is actually useable (I'm looking at you, Chaos Space Marines).

 

I'm not saying things are amazing. Far from it, but get some perspective. It's toy soldiers,and all the crying and whining is only crying and whining to people that already know the issue. We have the codex, we know whats going on, and it's getting very annoying.

 

 

They may be toy soldiers, but when they sell for 15 quids a piece it's not really whining when you ask for your money's equal worth from equal amounts of plastic.  And people telling people to shut up and snuff it just because is getting very annoying.

[Charlo]

Can we PLEASE get this back on a positive note guys? We're getting snide with eachother (intentonal or not) and that is NOT what we are about in this awesome section.

 

So here is a proposal:

 

Let's all think of cool ways to use this force, be it for game terms or fluff or whatever...

 

I'll go first:

 

 Put the Captain with 8 man Squads of Tacticals in Drop pods. Arm them with special weapon and matching combi and a power weapon on the sarge. Captain can also take complementing combi. Repeat until you have enough.

 

Drop half the pods turn one and enact FNP so that you have a pretty damn good Tank Character for the squads (3W 2+/4++/5++)

 

Next turn, drop your other pods and enact the rules for them.

 

Basic? Sure.

 

But your two drop waves just got ~30% reduction in wounds and by this point all of your Baals are in position for prime DAKKA.

 

P.s. If anyone mentions "why this won't work against Eldar I will let the rage overtake me."

[Arkaniss]

One of my other armies is Sisters of Battle... :P So I am content with all things BA and always remind myself that it can always be worse. Try not to focus on negative things - it doesn't matter which army you collect - Chaos, Sisters or whoever, it's just not productive. Sure our codex may be creaking a bit (happens to everyone as it gets older of course) but we still have some awesome models, unique units and interesting characters. That and I still think an army of red Blood Angels on the table looks better than any other colour of Marine ;)

 

In regards to the BA Starter Set I was never really interested in the Formation. Of course a good and fluffy one would be welcome but it's the models that should be the focus. I have plenty of Tactical Marines and Baal Predators already but even I'm still tempted to get a box - that is a good sign I think.