New DRAFT FAQ

[twopounder]

I have a question about that, why can't you take a company master on a bike? And is interrogator chaplins just more specialized and therefore less likely to lead a Demi company than a regular Chaplin? They are the guys who like cutting on people instead of inspiring their men to greatness right?

 

For the bike, are you asking in rule terms or in fluff terms?

 

Rule terms - they didn't add it to the Master's wargear list

Fluff terms - They made up some story about how all company masters can have terminator armor but nobody will allow them to ride a bike.

 

As for the chaplain, no and no. Interrogator-Chaplains do not "like cutting on people instead of inspiring their men to greatness".

 

The chapter organization is not straight forward, nor is the ranking system. Interrogator-Chaplains know more about the fallen than regular chaplains and so there are fewer of them and they have to prove themselves better than a standard chaplain. They can sweep the floor with chaplains from any other chapter in a fight and are used as surgical instruments to extract the precise targets for interrogation back on the rock.

 

It's the exact opposite of what you just said - they are extremely adept leaders and warriors. But they are in the same circle as senior librarians in the inner circle and are reserved for situations that regular chaplains are not sufficient.

[Bryan Blaire]

The bike thing is also because there is only one company all on bikes, and they already have a Company Master in the game rules.

[Solrac]

Although I agree a few of the questions seemed silly, the clarification on a couple were really welcome.

 

A RWSS with a Darkshroud having both Stealth and Shrouded is awesome, 4+ cover without needing to jink. I assumed this is how it worked to begin with but I know a lot of gamers that would have argued the point.

 

The RWSS being able to Overwatch for any friendly Ravenwing unit (including itself) is a good clarification.

 

Finally allowing to re-roll cover save whilst jinking is an excellent clarification (and pretty OP). Get shot at by Dark Reapers with their pesky ignore jink? Well not a problem if your bikes are in a ruin. you will still get to re-roll your 4+ cover save.

[twopounder]

The bike thing is also because there is only one company all on bikes, and they already have a Company Master in the game rules.

 

Tell that to the chaplains and librarians. Which company are they in again? ;)

[MoonPhoenix]

Well, for me a most sad thing in this situation with Deathwing is that almost any SM like army could fill pure terminator army. Althought for many years only DA or GK could do this (for fluff and rule reasons).

[ValourousHeart]

Does anything speak against playing two Ravenwing Strike Force detachments?

First detachment contains what I want on the table in the first turn and second contains Flyers and stuff that outflanks.

 

The only thing that could stop this is some artificial restriction on number of detachments.

The problem with those restrictions is all they do is encourage certain formation to be played, not limit the ones that can be OP.

For example a 2 formation limit allows you to bring a Lions Blade, but doesn't allow you to bring a RWSF w/ a RWSS & RWAS.

Of those 2 options the Lions Blade has much more potential to be OP or abusive than that RW list.

 

Even if I'm not running flyers, when I am getting to 2000+ points I usually have a second HQ in order to have 2 RWSF.

At lower points I usually have 2 RWAS run with my RWSF which gives me enough flexibility that I can start what I want on the board and have the rest in reserves.

 

Well it is quite a raw deal when most armies have a DS "Alpha" strike formation...   Even C:SM does a first turn full DS formation....  It does hurt that the designers TOOK IT AWAY FROM US (yet one more thing stolen) and gave it to the Smurfs.

 

However this is still the "new" reality that never changes....  DA get *Pooped* upon....

 

It is interesting when people use absolutes... Because there is generally a really big flaw in their logic that brought them to that absolute.

Now I am certainly not the oldest person in the room, and I am not claiming to have played longer than everyone else.

 

But UM didn't steal anything from DA.

All 4 of the 2nd edition marine chapters with codexes (UM, SW, BA and DA) could field armies of all terminators.

 

So it isn't a case where DA gets pooped upon... it is matter of walking through a cow field, you can either watch your step, or you can lay down and roll around in it.

The choice is yours... nobody is forcing you to watch your step and nobody is forcing you to lay down in it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

First of all, this is the first draft. So if people make enough noise in GW facebook, they can still change. Complaining on BnC will be less useful.

Second, DW is a fun army. If you are taking one to a tournament you know that you won't win many games. So if the objective is to have fun,stick to friendly games where rules can be bent so both players enjoy the game.

Third. You can still play Unbound DW (fun game remember?) or you can use the DW detachment on the back of the book and field 3 venerable dreadnoughts in drop pods. Those will be in reserve but arrive on turn one, avoiding auto lose. So there, nothing changed, really.

What is funny is that DA army lists forum is a quiet place... The DA forum only sees fluff questions and painting blogs... but as soon FAQs come out, come tons of people from everywhere complaining DA has been nerfed. So where are all the battle reports, tactical analysis, questions about units, new combos, etc from those that complain (and those that don't)?

What changed that makes people only come out to complain and they don't share the good stuff? Especially now that we finally have a DA Codex worthy of the name despite the obvious shortcomings?

A FAQ draft is not the end of the world.. it's a draft... and we lived longer without FAQs or with worse FAQs and Codex...

[shabbadoo]

The amount of saltiness is choking.

Nothing has been lost, people, and expecting an FAQ to give us something we didn't have anyways was not only naive, it was downright foolish.

Not so much now after C:SM, C:SW, and C:BA dreadnoughts have officially been given +2 attacks after people pitched a bitch about the FAQ only suggesting it be an optional rule. Surely DW/RW can and do function on their own, but can still gain synergy (i.e have other rules apply, which they do) when working together with other units. Working with other units should NOT be a requirement though! And so we very well may get our pure DW/RW armies! Let the brow-beating of GW by DA players BEGIN!!!

[shabbadoo]

I have a question about that, why can't you take a company master on a bike? And is interrogator chaplins just more specialized and therefore less likely to lead a Demi company than a regular Chaplin? They are the guys who like cutting on people instead of inspiring their men to greatness right?

Only Ravenwing ride bikes, and they already have a Company Master who doesn't need the help of another Company Master.  That's why.

 

As to the Demi-Company, it represents half of a Company, which is composed of a Company Master, a Chaplain, a Company Command Squad, 6 Tactical Squads,  2 Assault Squads, and 2 Devastator Squads (plus Company Veterans, if they choose to form up that unit).  Note that lack of a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain in that list. The Company contains only those units.  Anything else is something that is *not a member of the Company*, so is not representative of the Company or even half of it, that being a Demi-Company. Traditionally, a Company Master will lead one Demi-Company while the Company's Chaplain leads the other. That way each Demi-Company has a leader *from their Company*. Anything else added is an auxiliary unit, whether it be an HQ or something else.  There is no reason why an Interrogator-Chaplain couldn't show up and join a Demi-Company or full Company, but he will do so as an accompaniment to the force and not as a replacement for the Company's Chaplain.

[twopounder]

 

I have a question about that, why can't you take a company master on a bike? And is interrogator chaplins just more specialized and therefore less likely to lead a Demi company than a regular Chaplin? They are the guys who like cutting on people instead of inspiring their men to greatness right?

Only Ravenwing ride bikes, and they already have a Company Master who doesn't need the help of another Company Master.  That's why.

 

As to the Demi-Company, it represents half of a Company, which is composed of a Company Master, a Chaplain, a Company Command Squad, 6 Tactical Squads,  2 Assault Squads, and 2 Devastator Squads (plus Company Veterans, if they choose to form up that unit).  Note that lack of a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain in that list. The Company contains only those units.  Anything else is something that is *not a member of the Company*, so is not representative of the Company or even half of it, that being a Demi-Company. Traditionally, a Company Master will lead one Demi-Company while the Company's Chaplain leads the other. That way each Demi-Company has a leader *from their Company*. Anything else added is an auxiliary unit, whether it be an HQ or something else.  There is no reason why an Interrogator-Chaplain couldn't show up and join a Demi-Company or full Company, but he will do so as an accompaniment to the force and not as a replacement for the Company's Chaplain.

 

 

That's a flimsy reason for saying a company master doesn't have the authority to take a bike when chaplains and librarians do. Especially when a company master can take relics and TDA.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 That's a flimsy reason for saying a company master doesn't have the authority to take a bike when chaplains and librarians do. Especially when a company master can take relics and TDA.

 

Then you might just have to settle for the firm reason that it just isn't one of his options, and come up with your own fluffy explanation.

 

 

But on a lighter note I am really surprised that no one asked if Belial could have a chariot pulled by a couple of Voltron lions so that he could have a Ben Hur style race with the Space Wolves.

[Master Avoghai]

On the deathwing detachment : I think we argue for 2 different things and we try to reject culpability on each other. I just think that most of the people that claim for pure Dw (like me) are not understanding what GW is doing. There are 2 reasons for that : incoherencies and lack of knowledge of the gamers.

 

Incoherencies :

 

When I look at the different codex I cannot understand why they limit so much the DW strike Force.

- It's a support detachment? Man it's no more support that the archangels detachment of the BA or the 1st company task force of the SM but it has more restrictions. Even GK which are a "support army" are not limitated that much. (Note that I don't whine on the "they stole that to us" argument, I don't care, I'm actually happy for UM or BA players, I just notice that the support detachment argument is not a valid one

-It is designed to make a DS detachment? But we already have the Redemption Force which is 99% the same. Having 2 similar detachments formations makes it unclear on the role of both.

-It is to prevent abuse? Man we all know that a pure DW army is abusing nothing... How can this be an argument when we see things like aspect warhost formations.

- it is made to sell more minis? Man, a termi boxset is around 45€. A LR boxset is around 60€. Now people buy fewer termis because they cannot play them as a pure army and even less LR because it's hard to field them in the DA detachments/formations. I myself planed to buy 2 more LR but finally didn't because of that. A friend did so too... He wanted 3 more LR but didn't buy them.

 

 

I don't manage to understand WHY, after codex v3, codex v3.5, codex v4/5, and codex v6 which gave me the opportunity to play a deathwing army on foot, a full DSing DW or a mechanized DW army, I'm obliged to play them a unique and only way. Of course, we can say, "play unbound" but that's actually the second reason of misunderstanding

 

GW doesn't know his game and his gamers.

 

Unbound is presented like a new option. But it's not. It has always existed. We've all made a game with little tweak that didn't strictly respect the rules. Wether it's for a campaign or a good laugh with a friend we've already done that. But now be honest : how many times in gamer's life have we done that?

 

To me it's a lack of knowledge by GW. Lack of knowledge on how people play their games. We made tournies, we made conventions, we play in clubs... Lots of occasions that we need a battle forged army. Most of us don't have the time and the money to spend on an army that needs allowance by our opponent. Remember the special characters? They needed allowance before but GW noticed they didnt sell them so they make them fully part of the army and even gave them uniaue role (like Belial leading the DW).

Of course GW could say they don't take those type of play into account and want people to play the game like THEY intended.... But last time they did that, they called it Age of Sigmar and we all know the success it has :rolleyes:

 

So I don't think it's unjustified to regeret that GW has been so restrictive with the DW. I prefer see a DA player loosing with a mechanized DW army and have fun that listening him saying "I've sold my pure DW because I cannot bring them in a tourny anymore and tourny is my only solution to get games with my agenda"

[Cpt_Reaper]

Now I have a reason to have a regular chaplain for my battle company. Guess I should give him new arms.

[JJD]

 

 

 

 

I have a question about that, why can't you take a company master on a bike? And is interrogator chaplins just more specialized and therefore less likely to lead a Demi company than a regular Chaplin? They are the guys who like cutting on people instead of inspiring their men to greatness right?

Only Ravenwing ride bikes, and they already have a Company Master who doesn't need the help of another Company Master. That's why.

 

As to the Demi-Company, it represents half of a Company, which is composed of a Company Master, a Chaplain, a Company Command Squad, 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads, and 2 Devastator Squads (plus Company Veterans, if they choose to form up that unit). Note that lack of a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain in that list. The Company contains only those units. Anything else is something that is *not a member of the Company*, so is not representative of the Company or even half of it, that being a Demi-Company. Traditionally, a Company Master will lead one Demi-Company while the Company's Chaplain leads the other. That way each Demi-Company has a leader *from their Company*. Anything else added is an auxiliary unit, whether it be an HQ or something else. There is no reason why an Interrogator-Chaplain couldn't show up and join a Demi-Company or full Company, but he will do so as an accompaniment to the force and not as a replacement for the Company's Chaplain.

That's a flimsy reason for saying a company master doesn't have the authority to take a bike when chaplains and librarians do. Especially when a company master can take relics and TDA.

The thing is this is the reason. In all the other space marine codexs elements of a captains battle company (the assault marines) may be deployed on a bike and so the captain my deploy with them. With the single exception of the RW no element of a company masters battle company will ever be deployed on a bike so he wouldn't be either. It makes sense to me. Its not that they can't ride a bike just that they never would.

 

Librarians and Interrogator chaplains my be deployed with any company including DW and RW and so need access to bikes and TDA

 

The chaplian in the RW would be deployed on a bike and so he needs access. The company master of the RW as we all know has his own ride.

 

It all makes sense fluff wise for the DA chapter.

 

The issues comes with successor chapter who as far as I'm aware should not have access to a jet bike.

 

Edited repeatedly for my dyslexia (not help by the 2 yrs old crawling all over me)

[Major_Gilbear]

What is funny is that DA army lists forum is a quiet place... The DA forum only sees fluff questions and painting blogs... but as soon FAQs come out, come tons of people from everywhere complaining DA has been nerfed. So where are all the battle reports, tactical analysis, questions about units, new combos, etc from those that complain (and those that don't)?

You know, that's actually something I have always preferred about the DA subforums to other subforums. By having more threads on modelling and painting and fluff, I feel that newcomers and returners are less excluded, and that there are fewer arguments too.

In the end, 40k isn't (and has never been) especially well written or balanced. It isn't, despite how hard people may wish (or have wished) it. So the endless list-posting and rules-exploit discussions that I see on a lot of forums are to me like being fire-hosed away from the genuinely interesting part of the hobby (and let's face it, the part that brought nearly all of us here, and to 40k in general).

I therefore frankly hope that the DA forum does stay more focussed on the creative and narrative side of the hobby.

____________________________________________________________________

With respect to the more contentious issues in the FAQ:

1) I totally understand why people are upset that they cannot have a 100% DW Assault army unless it's by "friendly consent" or "Unbound" (which is the same thing, surely?). Especially when they are also told that 100% DW Assault army isn't competitive anyway. Well in that case why the isn't this just made official, and those who want to run a fluffy and uncompetitive army can? Why does this need some sort of special super-snowflake begging consent from your opponent? Really? It's pathetic.

2) I understand why the DA codex doesn't have some units, and why the other SM Codices also don't have certain units; to create an artificial reason to keep all four Codices separate. Yes, it allows GW "to focus on the themes of each SM chapter more individually" or whatever, but in the end there is no real fluff or game balance reason why DA wouldn't have/use Thunderfire Cannons, or whatever. However, there are some things that are pretty crappy: why not allow Company Masters to have bikes or whatnot? I mean, we aren't restricted from having Company Masters in TDA in case we don't use Belial, so why is a bike so exclusive? And while we're at it, why not have a unit entry for a Chapter Master or Chief Librarian that are not the named DA characters? There are plenty of successor chapters using the DA Codex, and it seems unnecessarily petty to force them to have "counts as" proxies based on re-skinned special characters. Allowing a Company Master to have a bike permits other Successor versions of whatever passes for Ravenwing in their Chapters to have their own characters - and it's hardly game-breaking, nor does it detract from any other SM Codex.

3) I understand people asking for Company Master bikes as part of the FAQ & Errata. It's not the first time that new/different unit/wargear entries have been created to better reflect what people reasonably want; look at Terminator Sergeants being allowed to have TH+SS again, or the changes to Command squad sizes (as well as what weapons they could take). Sometimes GW makes a poor arbitrary decision that makes little sense, and when pressured enough they can (and have) changed it. So why not ask for Company Masters to have bikes in an FAQ & Errata? It's a very reasonable and modest request, and I'm sure many veteran players probably have models they might like to use again to represent this option. (Note that asking for a bike option is not asking for a RW jink!).

4) To not allow a Demi Company to upgrade their Chaplain to an Interrogator Chaplain doesn't seem very fluffy to me. All Captains are members of the Deathwing (AFAIK?), so who's monitoring the other half of the battle company while he's off on an extended campaign or whatever with the other half? Having an upgrade option (that you pay for) seems perfectly reasonable, and no not have this is once more a needless and petty restriction that no effect on game balance one way or another.

[JJD]

I've re read Towpounders post and the point you make about company master having access to TDA does kind of invalidate my fluff argument for them not using bikes.

[ValourousHeart]

 

The thing is this is the reason. In all the other space marine codexs elements of a captains battle company (the assault marines) may be deployed on a bike and so the captain my deploy with them. With the single exception of the RW no element of a company masters battle company will ever be deployed on a bike so he wouldn't be either. It makes sense to me.

 

The issues comes with successor chapter who as far as I'm aware should not have access to a jet bike.

 

There are a couple of ways this could be interpreted.

All that is said is that it is believed that Sammie rides the last jetbike.

 

You could take that to mean that each sub chapter has its own 3-10 companies, but all members of the RW are under Sammie, and all members of the DW are under Belial.

 

Or it could be that each sub chapter is autonomous and that there is a Jetbike for each sub chapter.

 

The truth is that neither version is wrong.

And if you try to tell me that there is proof for one or the other, then I simply have to say that is an elaborate ruse to help keep hidden the existence of the fallen.

And then I would kill you to make sure that secret was kept secret.

 

It is a game, based on a collection of short stories.... there are going to be plot holes.

But it is still a better love story than Twilight.

[o8oo Anarch]

TBH my big annoyance at no more pure DW is that unlike all the other marines, we can't field scouts with teleport homers to make for precision T2 DS. This means my last 'pure DW' army ended up having to drop in around an UM 10th company detachment. Where is Sgt Naaman's replacement already? :( I know I cud have done this with DA scouts via a CAD, but that leaves me with an extra HQ (that cannont join the infiltration scout units, nor auto DS with the DW?) and no homers.

 

On the no bike for CM debate.  I do find it weird that Belial's job seems at risk (you can buy TDA) as only 1st company wear TDA?, but Sammael has job security (can't buy a bike).  Maybe the DW need to unionise to stop random CMs stealing their jobs?  Maybe it's that all CM have to go through the DW, so all have a spare TDA suit in their closet, but going through the RW isn't mandatory to become a CM and Sammy is only guy ever to manage it, so none of the other got bikes? Tiz about the best I can come up with :p

 

I like the clear up of how DW characters and LRs can be fielded in our DW forces.  But I must admit I was secretly (and knowing it was rediculous) hoping for DS LRs! Now if only I can figure out a way to get outflank on a LRr/c? :S

 

I actually like the clear distinction made between regular and inty chaps for demi-co.  Can make for slight inconvience on occassion, but is real fluffy, which lionsblade is supposed to be all about :)

[Major_Gilbear]

I actually like the clear distinction made between regular and inty chaps for demi-co. Can make for slight inconvience on occassion, but is real fluffy, which lionsblade is supposed to be all about

Yeah... But the whole reason for allowing Company Masters TDA is because they are all members of the DW. They are all members of the DW so that they can monitor the Marines in their own companies. Therefore, when the company is split, who monitors the half of the company that's not with the Company Master?

Officially, some of the DW may return to a company as Company Vets or even Vet Sergeants, for the same reasons of monitoring their fellow Marines; even so, that's not a guarantee that they are present on the non-Company Master half of the company.

Therefore, it seems logical to me that a Demi Company can be upgraded to be led by an Interrogator Chaplain on the occasions that the two Demo Companies don't participate in the same missions/campaign.

[Chaplain Raeven]

What a big discussion about the Bike/TDA-issue. As far as I see it, the option to buy TDA just increases the chance of survival of the company master. Why would you let the big chief of the campaign run around in tactical armour? And since he's been in the Deathwing before his promotion to Campany Master, he'll probably have a spare suit. Now the fluff says: 'This is why every member of the Ravenwing must be not only an expert rider or pilot, but also be fervently dedicated to the chapter.' So they wouldn't give a bike to a Company Master that barely knows how to ride, since it would drag them down, regardless of his right to take shiny toys.

 

It's also know that Sammael survives unexpectedly long for his role as company master, since the overall life-expectancy for bikers is fairly low (even for expert riders). I don't see why they would risk placing an Company Master on a bike that would probably kill him, when they can place him in near indestructable armour (fluffwise, not in-game).

 

Now rulewise, they should allow the option. Successors now have to implement Sammael or his twinbrother with the 'only' existing Jetbike to fit with their fluff. And the pure DA shouldn't be forced to field Sammael. Maybe it was GW's easy and quick solution to avoid abuse of Ravenwing, since they are doing so well lately.

[Major_Gilbear]

Not every Company Master on a bike has to be (or have been) RW though - so I don't see the issue really. And rules-wise, it allows players to put a captain (Company Master) on a bike and give them model some cool fluff about who he is. As I said, giving a Company Master a bike does not give them jink - just the option to ride a bike! It's simply an olive branch/cake crumbs for those who play successor chapters, or who don't want to be obliged to field Sammael in every bike-heavy force.

 

As for TDA: well, you could just use Artificer Armour and an Iron Halo for 2+/4++... Even in fluff terms, there's a reason why Artificer Armour and force-fields are rare and cherished equipment!

[o8oo Anarch]

 

Yeah... But the whole reason for allowing Company Masters TDA is because they are all members of the DW. They are all members of the DW so that they can monitor the Marines in their own companies. Therefore, when the company is split, who monitors the half of the company that's not with the Company Master?

 

Officially, some of the DW may return to a company as Company Vets or even Vet Sergeants, for the same reasons of monitoring their fellow Marines; even so, that's not a guarantee that they are present on the non-Company Master half of the company.

 

Therefore, it seems logical to me that a Demi Company can be upgraded to be led by an Interrogator Chaplain on the occasions that the two Demo Companies don't participate in the same missions/campaign.

 

 

Each company has it's own CM and Chaplain. Each of whom assume command of a  demi-co when the company splits.  I-Chaplains are something completely different and would be present aswell as the regular chaplain, rather than instead of the regular Chaplain, should the situation require DW oversight.  Atleast this is how I interprate the fluff?

 

-Edit-

 

The only exception to this is the 1st company who have an I-C as standard.

[Chaplain Raeven]

I agree with you, like I said in my last portion of the post. But since the option wasn't listed in the codex, I'll doubt they'll include it now, since they don't know what the effect could be. It could potentially cause abuse (I'm saying that it would). Good thing I don't play RW, because I would be pissed if I was forced to only Sammael. It's almost the same as forcing Greenwing to take Azrael as Warlord each game.

 

I believe they have more TDA than Artificer Armour in stock. They could probably even give their gardener TDA.

 

Edit: Meant for the Major.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I remember not long ago, the only option to have a RW was Sammael as HQ. Right now we can have two versions of Sammael, Chaplain or Librarian and people are concerned about not getting a captain on bike? Did anyone actually fielded Captain on a bike in the times you could? I remember thta the go-to choice was either Sammael or Chaplain on bike... The captain was more expensive than Chaplain and had no "special" rules and Sammael had better rules than the Captain.

So what changed for all this clamor about Captain on bike? If you want cheap HQ's you have them, if you want Fighty HQ's you have them, and if you want Special HQ's you have them. I'm sure modellers can just model a Captain and Players will not go for a Captain because there are better choices, what is this fuss all about?

[Master Avoghai]

I also personnaly don't understand the hype around the Master on bike... We don't even have the option of including bikes in the half company so I hardly see the point... We don't even has scouts on bike...

 

So he cannot join other bike squads than ravenwing squads... I don't really see what it brings fluff wise or gameswise... :unsure: