New DRAFT FAQ

[SickSix]

So is 'counts as' not a thing anymore? Do players not allow named character models to be painted in other colors now?

[Phoebus]

Re: Interrogator Chaplains.

 

I have no idea what Lexicanum has to say about them (I can't access their website right now). They're usually a great resource, but I care much more about what Codex: Dark Angels has to say on the matter:

Sworn to the Inner Circle during a convoluted ceremony in the Hall of Secrets, every Interrogator-Chaplain has passed the Test of Faith and learned the grim secrets of his Chapter's history.

Emphasis mine. This is pretty cut-and-dry.

 

Re: Corvex

 

There are only two mentions of Corvex in the latest Codex: Dark Angels. The last edition, however, stated:

Many times Corvex has been thought lost or destroyed, but always returns. Whether the Dark Angels maintain a cache of relics or have long-lost STC material is unknown, as they do not share their secrets.

There's a good deal of ambiguity there, and it points strongly (in my humble opinion) to Successors having their own such relics... and a pool from which to get replacements.

 

Re: the Ravenwing versus the 2nd Company

 

I don't think you'll get a firm answer as to whether the former extends to the Secret Legion as a whole, while the latter pertains only to the individual Chapter. I personally don't think this is the case, but that's just my opinion. I would offer, however, that the last Codex makes it a moot point insofar as a Successor having a jetbike is concerned. Insofar as fielding a Successor Sammael-equivalent with a bike instead of a jetbike or a land speeder is concerned? Read on.

 

Re: Company Masters

 

Why do they get access to Tactical Dreadnought Armour? The current edition only alludes to the answer, but last edition's spelled it out:

As part of the Inner Circle, a Company Master may join his 1st Company brethren in battle, donning his Terminator armour and leading one of the most feared fighting formations in the galaxy.

No such statement has every been made about the Ravenwing. Chalk it up to the nebulous, often contradictory information we have on the relationships between the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, and the Ravenwing.

 

If you ask me, in a perfect world Deathwing and Ravenwing would be purchaseable Special Rules. Deathwing would be a compulsory purchase for Company Masters, Interrogator Chaplains, Librarians, etc., and could even be purchased for Veteran Sergeants. Ravenwing would be compulsory for members of the Second Company (to include Chaplains, Interrogator-Chaplains, and Librarians) and optional for other Dark Angels characters. Purchasing Deathwing would give you the fun rules benefits and access to Tactical Dreadnought Armour. Purchasing Ravenwing would give you the fun rules benefits and access to a bike.

 

While we're at it, I would argue for a baseline "Grand Master" Character Template whose Special Rules section would allow one to build a Company Master (including 1st and 2nd Company flavors), Interrogator-Chaplain, Librarian, and even Chapter Master. This would be a direct nod to Successor Chapters, so that not everyone has to use, e.g., Belial.

[ronin_cse]

Even if they gave us a named successor master with a different loadout, a la Seth from the BA codex, I'd be a little happier since at least then we'd have some option.

 

So you want a terrible successor chapter master that no one ever takes? :p

[Bryan Blaire]

A Company Master with a successor chapter Ravenwing? Sure.

As much as I would love this Codex to be "Build Your Own Unforgiven Successor", that's not what they gave us rules for. The only rules they actually gave us only allow us to run our Successors exactly as they built the Dark Angels Chapter to run, without any deviations.

 

Do I sincerely hope that the next Codex will actually allow us to have a better "Build Your Own" system, Hell yes! However, that isn't the logic they seem to have built this Codex with, and the rules for this Codex indicate that they didn't intend you to run a Company Master on a bike and the most likely reason for this is that they looked at Sammael and said "Nope, he's the only one in charge, you'll have to use him."

 

Edit: and all of what Phoebus said, pretty much spells out my thoughts on the subjects exactly.

[FlamingDeth]

 

 

Even if they gave us a named successor master with a different loadout, a la Seth from the BA codex, I'd be a little happier since at least then we'd have some option.

So you want a terrible successor chapter master that no one ever takes? :p

Sure, an option is an option, as long as he's on a regular (or even black knight) bike.

 

Edit: To clarify, I'm just saying there's a precedence for putting named successor characters in a codex, so I don't see why they couldn't at least do that if they're leaving out the "build your own" option.

[shabbadoo]

I have a question about that, why can't you take a company master on a bike? And is interrogator chaplins just more specialized and therefore less likely to lead a Demi company than a regular Chaplin? They are the guys who like cutting on people instead of inspiring their men to greatness right?

Only Ravenwing ride bikes, and they already have a Company Master who doesn't need the help of another Company Master. That's why.

As to the Demi-Company, it represents half of a Company, which is composed of a Company Master, a Chaplain, a Company Command Squad, 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads, and 2 Devastator Squads (plus Company Veterans, if they choose to form up that unit). Note that lack of a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain in that list. The Company contains only those units. Anything else is something that is *not a member of the Company*, so is not representative of the Company or even half of it, that being a Demi-Company. Traditionally, a Company Master will lead one Demi-Company while the Company's Chaplain leads the other. That way each Demi-Company has a leader *from their Company*. Anything else added is an auxiliary unit, whether it be an HQ or something else. There is no reason why an Interrogator-Chaplain couldn't show up and join a Demi-Company or full Company, but he will do so as an accompaniment to the force and not as a replacement for the Company's Chaplain.

That's a flimsy reason for saying a company master doesn't have the authority to take a bike when chaplains and librarians do. Especially when a company master can take relics and TDA.

It is not about authority, but need. There is literally no compelling need for a Company Master to have access to a bike as standard wargear. Ergo it is not any sort of flimsy reason at all, and you more than shoot your argument in the foot when you mention Chaplains (I'll include Interrogator-Chaplains here too) and Librarians who do have a compelling need to have a bike as a standard wargear option. I don't think it is necessary to explain yet again why those individuals need to have access to a bike and a Company Master does not, though I can if somebody can't figure out the why of it.

Now, the one Company Master who would have a compelling need to be able to take a bike, or rather a Scout Bike, is the 10th Company Master. But then we'd have to have Scouts that ride bikes to begin with, and ours don't - our marines just "somehow" learn to be the most awesomest of bikers as soon as they paint their armor black and hang out with awesome biker dudes who also somehow got awesome just be being handed a bike and somebody saying to them, "You be awesome now and try not to die, umkay?" We Dark Angels don't train our bikers; we just wing it - Ravenwing it!" I just might have to sig that somewhere.

Otherwise, the Belial ruling is crap for the stated reasons (i.e. it actually goes against the rules), but the sentiment of the ruling is what is understandable. Accordingly they should have errata'd Belial's rule to state "Any Deathwing unit joined by Belial..." gets his rule, not write something that tells us the FAQ folks don't know their own core rule system.

The same goes for the Darkshrouds rule. It give its rule to *other* units within 6", but when it is a part of a squadron, its squadron mates are NOT another unit, but the *SAME* unit. It is fine that the Squadron gets both Stealth and Shrouded, but they should have just errata'd the Squadron's special rules to state that it gains the benefit of both rules, not state something counter to their core rules.

Not a bad FAQ overall, but I'd still like to see the Rift Cannon firing sequence delineated properly with regard to scatter and then the vortex effect, which includes scattering too. So, scatter for the initial effect, and then if you roll double on the scatter, do you then now roll for the vortex scatter too, or just place the template there and vortex everything dead?

[Major_Gilbear]

So is 'counts as' not a thing anymore? Do players not allow named character models to be painted in other colors now?

Ah yes, "Not-Sammael" with a powerfist (counts as his sword) on a bike (counts as a jetbike), painted in Angels of Absolution colours (counts as being painted black)... And using a model that basically isn't Sammel in any way. But hey, "counts-as" proxies can never be confusing, right?

[SickSix]

I didn't say anything about not being WYSIWYG.

 

But yes there is a clear problem with successor chapters being forced to use the DA named characters.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

There's also a clear problem from SW successors being forced to take SW characters but I think they don't really care much if a successor Canis Wulfborn doesn't have a bike option. ;)

 

Sorry, I think it's a mountain being made from a mole Hill. Yes, sucks for sucessos being forced to take a Sammael, instead of a bike captain. Somehow GW forgot people like to have their own characters and develop their history but it's not a deal-breaker,IMHO and every Codex suffers from that problem yo some extent.

For me, the priority wouldn't lie on getting alike for the Captain but would be getting access to the armory that every chapter should have. Thunderfire, centurions, storm talons, scout bikes, etc. Stuff that is logical to be widespread to every chapter no matter how insular and special they are.

[Bryan Blaire]

I didn't say anything about not being WYSIWYG.

While I agree that sticking closely to WYSIWYG is good sportsmanship, players have figured out that's not a written rule any more, right?

 

As long as you are clear what things are, there's not much model enforcement to be found within the rules right now, so a lot of the "modeling for advantage", "WYSIWYG", "proxy" and "counts-as" arguments are not rules arguments any longer, unless you are playing in an entity overseen by something other than just the GW 40K rules as written.

 

A "Sammael" on a bike with a fist and painted purple will still be used according to the rules as Sammael if that's what is designated for the model according to the army list writer.

[FerociousBeast]

If company chaplains can requisition bikes for the purposes of personal transport--see Chaplain Boreas in Angels of Darkness--why couldn't a company master?

 

But let's look at it from another perspective. When the next Dark Angels codex is released and, just like w/ the formerly absent TDA, company masters now have access to bikes... who among us is going to pitch a fit?

 

"Company masters have no COMPELLING NEED for bikes! Take the option away! There is never, ever an appropriate instance of a company master in any of the Unforgiven chapters riding a bike into battle!"

 

Dollars to donuts this sentence is never written.

 

Company masters with no option for bikes--like librarians with no option for storm shields--is just an oversight or a bad decision that unfortunately has persisted through codexes, with no acceptable fluff justification and a whole raft of downsides.

[ronin_cse]

If company chaplains can requisition bikes for the purposes of personal transport--see Chaplain Boreas in Angels of Darkness--why couldn't a company master?

 

But let's look at it from another perspective. When the next Dark Angels codex is released and, just like w/ the formerly absent TDA, company masters now have access to bikes... who among us is going to pitch a fit?

 

"Company masters have no COMPELLING NEED for bikes! Take the option away! There is never, ever an appropriate instance of a company master in any of the Unforgiven chapters riding a bike into battle!"

 

Dollars to donuts this sentence is never written.

 

Company masters with no option for bikes--like librarians with no option for storm shields--is just an oversight or a bad decision that unfortunately has persisted through codexes, with no acceptable fluff justification and a whole raft of downsides.

 

Well many of us have given perfectly fine fluff reasons for company masters to not have bikes. However I won't pitch a fit if they are allowed in the next codex either, just like I won't pitch a fit with any changes that happen. Part of the fun of the game IMO is working out new lists to work within new rules.

[FerociousBeast]

There are justifications, not reasons.

 

A reason would be: "There are only 67 bikes in the entire chapter, and the technology to create new ones has been lost (Codex Dark Angels, 6th edition, page 58). All bikes must therefore be reserved for the Ravenwing."

 

A justification would be: "Well, there's no need for masters to have bikes, because no company outside the Ravenwing uses bikes in battle, and company masters should kinda have to be equipped similarly to their companies. I mean right?"

 

No such reasons exist, though justifications abound.

[Phoebus]

If company chaplains can requisition bikes for the purposes of personal transport--see Chaplain Boreas in Angels of Darkness--why couldn't a company master?

This sort of debate is made difficult by the fact that we just don't know everything about the Dark Angels and their organizational structure.

 

Personally, I'm not worried about Boreas having access to a bike. The fact that Interrogator-Chaplains and Librarians are tasked with taking to the field with the Ravenwing is explanation enough for me. I would've been more interested if Boreas's companions on Piscina IV were shown riding one of the three bikes at their stronghold. Even then, however, I don't think this would've been something cosmic. We know Space Marines are "programmed" with a lot of their training. I sincerely doubt any battle-brother is unable to properly operate a bike, anymore than I doubt they can operate a Thunderhawk. The more pertinent question is what their battlefield role is within the highly stratified organizational structure of an Adeptus Astartes Chapter (and this goes double for the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven).

 

With that in mind, Dark Angels generally deploy in strike forces that boil down to a Battle Company or a Demi-Battle Company reinforced with elements of the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, and perhaps some assets from the Reserve Companies. For some reason, the Company Master nominally in command of this strike force can don Terminator armour and join his Deathwing element... but can't jump on a bike and join his Ravenwing element.

 

Is that an arbitrary restriction? Sure. That having been said, though, fighting formation of every kind throughout history have restricted themselves in various ways for arbitrary reasons. Perhaps for the Dark Angels the key nuance is that the Deathwing are responsible for the key action during a Hunt - defeating and capturing a Fallen - whereas the Ravenwing are responsible for the penultimate action. Perhaps that's why it's apropos for a Company Master to cede operational control of his strike force in order to join the Deathwing but not the Ravenwing.

 

Anyways, I'm just spit-balling here. As I offered earlier, I think that, in a perfect world, any Character should be able to purchase the Deathwing or Ravenwing Special Rules.

 

Finally, I agree with you. If the design team were to allow bikes for Company Masters, storm shields for Librarians, etc., I think the uproar would amount to precisely zero.

[twopounder]

I have a question about that, why can't you take a company master on a bike? And is interrogator chaplins just more specialized and therefore less likely to lead a Demi company than a regular Chaplin? They are the guys who like cutting on people instead of inspiring their men to greatness right?

Only Ravenwing ride bikes, and they already have a Company Master who doesn't need the help of another Company Master. That's why.

As to the Demi-Company, it represents half of a Company, which is composed of a Company Master, a Chaplain, a Company Command Squad, 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads, and 2 Devastator Squads (plus Company Veterans, if they choose to form up that unit). Note that lack of a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain in that list. The Company contains only those units. Anything else is something that is *not a member of the Company*, so is not representative of the Company or even half of it, that being a Demi-Company. Traditionally, a Company Master will lead one Demi-Company while the Company's Chaplain leads the other. That way each Demi-Company has a leader *from their Company*. Anything else added is an auxiliary unit, whether it be an HQ or something else. There is no reason why an Interrogator-Chaplain couldn't show up and join a Demi-Company or full Company, but he will do so as an accompaniment to the force and not as a replacement for the Company's Chaplain.

That's a flimsy reason for saying a company master doesn't have the authority to take a bike when chaplains and librarians do. Especially when a company master can take relics and TDA.

It is not about authority, but need. There is literally no compelling need for a Company Master to have access to a bike as standard wargear. Ergo it is not any sort of flimsy reason at all, and you more than shoot your argument in the foot when you mention Chaplains (I'll include Interrogator-Chaplains here too) and Librarians who do have a compelling need to have a bike as a standard wargear option. I don't think it is necessary to explain yet again why those individuals need to have access to a bike and a Company Master does not, though I can if somebody can't figure out the why of it.

Now, the one Company Master who would have a compelling need to be able to take a bike, or rather a Scout Bike, is the 10th Company Master. But then we'd have to have Scouts that ride bikes to begin with, and ours don't - our marines just "somehow" learn to be the most awesomest of bikers as soon as they paint their armor black and hang out with awesome biker dudes who also somehow got awesome just be being handed a bike and somebody saying to them, "You be awesome now and try not to die, umkay?" We Dark Angels don't train our bikers; we just wing it - Ravenwing it!" I just might have to sig that somewhere.

Otherwise, the Belial ruling is crap for the stated reasons (i.e. it actually goes against the rules), but the sentiment of the ruling is what is understandable. Accordingly they should have errata'd Belial's rule to state "Any Deathwing unit joined by Belial..." gets his rule, not write something that tells us the FAQ folks don't know their own core rule system.

The same goes for the Darkshrouds rule. It give its rule to *other* units within 6", but when it is a part of a squadron, its squadron mates are NOT another unit, but the *SAME* unit. It is fine that the Squadron gets both Stealth and Shrouded, but they should have just errata'd the Squadron's special rules to state that it gains the benefit of both rules, not state something counter to their core rules.

Not a bad FAQ overall, but I'd still like to see the Rift Cannon firing sequence delineated properly with regard to scatter and then the vortex effect, which includes scattering too. So, scatter for the initial effect, and then if you roll double on the scatter, do you then now roll for the vortex scatter too, or just place the template there and vortex everything dead?

That's not the reason they don't get a bike.

If that were the case, they wouldn't get TDA. They don't NEED TDA. There is no reason for it, as there are no organic terminators in 2 - 10 company. They could sit with artificer armor just fine. They need TDA just as much as they need a bike.

Here is the ultimate reason:

There is a terminator captain. There is NOT a captain on a bike. Vanilla marines are expected to use white scars, thus endeth the puzzle.

[Phoebus]

twopounder,

 

You're right, there aren't Deathwing elements assigned to the 2nd-10th Companies under the Chapter Organization table. In actual practice, though?

 

“... very few Dark Angels strike forces go to war without at least one squad of Deathwing on hand, ready to respond to the more ruthless orders of Chapter command at a moment’s notice."

...

“The strike force most frequently used by the Dark Angels – known as the Lion’s Blade – is structured primarily around a Battle Demi-company supported by elements of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing. The force is often strengthened by squads drawn from the 10th Company for reconnaissance and ambush duties, and vehicles from the Armoury for heavy fire support.”

 

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Dark Angels (Enhanced Edition).” v1.2. Games Workshop, 2015. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Emphasis mine.

[twopounder]

two pounder,

 

You're right, there aren't Deathwing elements assigned to the 2nd-10th Companies under the Chapter Organization table. In actual practice, though?

 

 

“... very few Dark Angels strike forces go to war without at least one squad of Deathwing on hand, ready to respond to the more ruthless orders of Chapter command at a moment’s notice."

...

“The strike force most frequently used by the Dark Angels – known as the Lion’s Blade – is structured primarily around a Battle Demi-company supported by elements of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing. The force is often strengthened by squads drawn from the 10th Company for reconnaissance and ambush duties, and vehicles from the Armoury for heavy fire support.”

 

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Dark Angels (Enhanced Edition).” v1.2. Games Workshop, 2015. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Emphasis mine.

You need to read the entire discussion so you understand why you're pushing a circular argument forward. Shabbado already debunked your post with his attempted argument against masters on bikes.

[ValourousHeart]

Hey guys I'm hoping you can come up with a consensus oh how this should work... since it wasn't addressed in the FAQ.

If this is the wrong space for this, let me know.

 

My question is about Sableclaw, Grim Resolve and Jinking.

 

Sableclaw has Grim Resolve which says that model can overwatch at BS2 if it doesn't Jink.

That seems clear enough.

 

But my question is what happens when Sableclaw Jinks?

Does it get to overwatch at BS1?

Or does it not get to overwatch at all because it is Jinking?

 

I believe the only thing I am assuming is that GW gives units rules that they can use at some point.

Which I don't believe is a gross misunderstanding of their intent.

[Phoebus]

twopounder,

 

I did read shabbadoo's post; your response to it prompted mine. Perhaps you didn't read my earlier posts? :)

 

shabbadoo and I are making different arguments, though. With respect to his points (regarding "need"), they have nothing to do with mine.

 

Obviously we all have our own vision of how this nebulous Chapter works. My own vision is often at odds with both Codex and Gav Thorpe. That having been said, if we're discussing what's in the actual Codex, I feel the points you made, above, re: Deathwing, are contradicted by both the current and the last editions. That is to say, there are Deathwing elements in most Dark Angels strike forces, and Company Masters retain access to Terminator armour in the evenf that they need to join them in battle.

 

Now, I already qualified that I'm not opposed to something similar to what you're arguing for (a purchaseable Ravenwing Special Rule that would unlock access to a bike, though I was thinking more about Successor Chapters)... but I would also echo that a fighting force placing arbitrary restrictions on itself isn't exactly novel. I'll grant you that's a subjective take, and it works less with other issues (such as the Dark Angels not having access to vehicles or weapons that any Codex Chapter can field).

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++Hey you guys, I already got grumpy earlier in this thread about it getting off topic by arguing, keep it on topic and if you can't be constructive then agree to disagree ok. OK?+++

[twopounder]

Hey guys I'm hoping you can come up with a consensus oh how this should work... since it wasn't addressed in the FAQ.

If this is the wrong space for this, let me know.

 

My question is about Sableclaw, Grim Resolve and Jinking.

 

Sableclaw has Grim Resolve which says that model can overwatch at BS2 if it doesn't Jink.

That seems clear enough.

 

But my question is what happens when Sableclaw Jinks?

Does it get to overwatch at BS1?

Or does it not get to overwatch at all because it is Jinking?

 

I believe the only thing I am assuming is that GW gives units rules that they can use at some point.

Which I don't believe is a gross misunderstanding of their intent.

 

Sableclaw can't overwatch. It's a non-walker vehicle and they can't overwatch. It's no different than a dreadnought getting the innercircle rule - it's already fearless so it doesn't suddenly cause fear or something. You just ignore the rule, as it doesn't apply.

[shabbadoo]

Yep!  The Grim Resolve rule applies in no way whatsoever to Sable Claw. It has no Ld, so Stubborn is not a factor for it, and it is a type of vehicle that can NOT fire Overwatch in the first place, so it can't make use of BS 2 Overwatch either.  It would be nice if an FAQ stated that the Sable Claw Sammael could fire Overwatch, just like the *Land Speeders* in a RW Support Squadron can.  It would be very sensible for this to be so.

[ValourousHeart]

 

Sableclaw can't overwatch. It's a non-walker vehicle and they can't overwatch. It's no different than a dreadnought getting the innercircle rule - it's already fearless so it doesn't suddenly cause fear or something. You just ignore the rule, as it doesn't apply.

 

I think you are referring to the Venerable Dreadnought and the Deathwing rule.

It is interesting that you would bring that up because the DW rule does more than just make units fearless.

It also applies hatred (Chaos Space Marines) to a unit... which the Dreadnought can very much take advantage of.

 

So like I said GW gives rules that a model could use at some point, in this case the Hatred portion.

 

And besides that there are other vehicles, not just walkers, that can fire overwatch.

 

Yep!  The Grim Resolve rule applies in no way whatsoever to Sable Claw. It has no Ld, so Stubborn is not a factor for it, and it is a type of vehicle that can NOT fire Overwatch in the first place, so it can't make use of BS 2 Overwatch either.  It would be nice if an FAQ stated that the Sable Claw Sammael could fire Overwatch, just like the *Land Speeders* in a RW Support Squadron can.  It would be very sensible for this to be so.

 

I would buy that except for the fact that Grim Resolve isn't given to every unit in the codex.

It is given to all 23 infantry units, both dreadnoughts, Sableclaw and the RWSS.

It is not given to the 14 other vehicle units, nor is it given to the 8 other formations and detachments.

 

It seems like a pretty flimsy argument to say that 26 of the 27 entries that have this rule can use it, but not that one because GW derped on that one.

Especially when you consider that they didn't derp on the 22 other entries.

 

There is not a single rule in this book that is not usable.

Some might be highly situational, but all are usable in some situation.

 

Come on this isn't about IF he can overwatch, because it is clear that he can.

The question is about what happens when he Jinks.

[twopounder]

 

 

Sableclaw can't overwatch. It's a non-walker vehicle and they can't overwatch. It's no different than a dreadnought getting the innercircle rule - it's already fearless so it doesn't suddenly cause fear or something. You just ignore the rule, as it doesn't apply.

 

I think you are referring to the Venerable Dreadnought and the Deathwing rule.

It is interesting that you would bring that up because the DW rule does more than just make units fearless.

It also applies hatred (Chaos Space Marines) to a unit... which the Dreadnought can very much take advantage of.

 

So like I said GW gives rules that a model could use at some point, in this case the Hatred portion.

 

And besides that there are other vehicles, not just walkers, that can fire overwatch.

 

Yep!  The Grim Resolve rule applies in no way whatsoever to Sable Claw. It has no Ld, so Stubborn is not a factor for it, and it is a type of vehicle that can NOT fire Overwatch in the first place, so it can't make use of BS 2 Overwatch either.  It would be nice if an FAQ stated that the Sable Claw Sammael could fire Overwatch, just like the *Land Speeders* in a RW Support Squadron can.  It would be very sensible for this to be so.

 

I would buy that except for the fact that Grim Resolve isn't given to every unit in the codex.

It is given to all 23 infantry units, both dreadnoughts, Sableclaw and the RWSS.

It is not given to the 14 other vehicle units, nor is it given to the 8 other formations and detachments.

 

It seems like a pretty flimsy argument to say that 26 of the 27 entries that have this rule can use it, but not that one because GW derped on that one.

Especially when you consider that they didn't derp on the 22 other entries.

 

There is not a single rule in this book that is not usable.

Some might be highly situational, but all are usable in some situation.

 

Come on this isn't about IF he can overwatch, because it is clear that he can.

The question is about what happens when he Jinks.

 

 

No, I'm not. Sableclaw cannot use grim resolve at all. Also, I was referring to any dreadnought having inner circle (or deathwing last edition).

 

Grim Resolve explicitly states that units that overwatch will do so at BS2 instead of 1. It does not allow the unit to overwatch.

 

The rule book is pretty clear on this. Any vehicle that is an exception to overwatch has it listed in the rules. Land speeders cannot overwatch, therefore sableclaw cannot overwatch.

 

RWSS has it because of ravenshield. Again - a rule that explicitly gives the unit permission to overwatch when they normally could not. There is no allowance for sableclaw.

[ValourousHeart]

 

No, I'm not. Sableclaw cannot use grim resolve at all. Also, I was referring to any dreadnought having inner circle (or deathwing last edition).

 

Grim Resolve explicitly states that units that overwatch will do so at BS2 instead of 1. It does not allow the unit to overwatch.

 

The rule book is pretty clear on this. Any vehicle that is an exception to overwatch has it listed in the rules. Land speeders cannot overwatch, therefore sableclaw cannot overwatch.

 

RWSS has it because of ravenshield. Again - a rule that explicitly gives the unit permission to overwatch when they normally could not. There is no allowance for sableclaw.

 

Oh boy, there has not been a rule called Inner Circle in the last 3 DA codexes.  

It was probably 3rd edition when that was a rule.  

Forgive me but I was more interested in current rule set.

 

You are paraphrasing the Grim Resolve rules, with the effect of adding content and meaning which isn't there.  

What it says is they "COUNT their ballistic skill as 2 WHEN firing overwatch."

Notice it says WHEN and not IF IT CAN.

 

If every unit in the codex had Grim Resolve, then I could buy your copy paste argument.

But they didn't do that, the were very intentional on which units got Grim Resolve.

 

You are correct the BRB is very clear on how the game works.

It is also clear that codexes supersede the BRB.

And I am not talking about land speeders... they don't have Grim Resolve.

I am talking about a Unique Character and its special rules.

 

And you should read the Ravenshield rule again.

Ravenshield allows the RWSS to shoot on another RW units behalf when they are charged... that is it.

See nobody questions if the RWSS can shoot a the unit charging a unit of RW bikes.... but they always ask can the RWSS shoot when they themselves get charged.

And that is be cause they are looking at the wrong rule for clarification.... it is Grim Resolve that grants them the right to fire overwatch under the normal rules for overwatch with the slight modification of BS2.