Opinion on Grenade launchers

[Brendaen]

All of my infantry squads have them, but what about Veterans? They are cheap and can handle high toughness or hordes.

 

Is a strength 6 shot worth 5 points?

[steellegionnaire85]

They do work in mass. I run them in my platoons but a waste on vets. Melta and plasma do better in the hands of bs 4 models. I have tried it, and it works. What is your main enemy force?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Grenade Lanuchers are alright, but they're not particularly good against anything. It ends up being a bit of a waste giving them to your specialists.

 

I'm a fan of them on Guardsman blobs though, as they can augment their anti-infantry firepower pretty nicely, in a pinch.

[Brendaen]

In my local gaming group; a little bit of everything.

 

My primary detachment is an AI Armored Company and then I take an allied detachment of AM so I can take Past in a punisher, 2 Veteran squads in Chimeras, and a pair of Wyverns.

 

My Vet Squads only disembark when they absolutely have to, but when they do, they have to have the capability of handling any type of threat (and stay cheap). That's why I'm interested in Grenade launchers.

[WarriorFish]

I like them as a cheap upgrade that provides some flexibility, they're often underestimated but flinging some krak around isn't too bad. As a Veteran weapon I'm less enthused, but as a cheap unit to scurry around doing odd jobs and capturing objectives etc I can see the merit. As an assault weapon with a respectable range they could do quite well shooting from a Chimera as a more modest unit in an armoured list.

[Canadian_F_H]

Idk if this is ideal or anything more of a personal vibe...

 

Infantry squads get grenade launchers,

platoon comand get flamers and heavy flamers

Company comand get grenade launchers

Veterans get melta or plasma

Or if they are hiding out, cammo and sniper rifles maybe.

 

I know company comand has bs 4 and gl is suppar. But melta and plasma require extreme proximity to the enemy, which to me is not a good place for the boss.

[Indefragable]

For me, Grenade Launchers and Flamers go in Special Weapons Squads and maaaaaaaaaaaaybe Platoon Command Squads if I have multiple Infantry Platoons. I used to give one of those to every Infantry Squad but have cut back. Here's why:

 

Would you rather have a single S6 AP4 shot or 3x S3 AP- shots? 

 

For me, Infantry Squads are there to die on Objectives and shoot lasguns. Anything else is a distraction and waste of points. FRFSRF gives all your las-weaponry an extra shot, therefore, the more las weaponry in the unit, the better. That's why Laspistols on Sgts as well. The potency of this increases along with unit size and any buffs such as Prescience. 

 

Orders-givers are there primarily for Orders, so PCS's especially I want to fly under the radar. 

 

Thus, a 45pt Obj camper that punches above its weight class such as a SWS is where I put special weapons. 

 

Veterans handle Melta and Plasma duty and are in Chimeras 90% of the time, along with a mechanized CCS just for them.

 

Just me. 

 

To finally answer your question, to me, GL's are not worth it on Veterans. Anything they can do can be done better by a different weapon, IMO. 

[Akrim]

They're ok, I'm partial to flamers myself. But it's not a bad point investment if you're looking to keep the squad cheap, S6 can do some damage as can the S3 frag if you find a nice tight cluster to lob it into.

 

By and large I agree that Vets are best with melta or Plas and the obligatory Chimera. But on occasion I want a cheap Vet unit I'll go with Sentries, some cheaps (usually snipers or GLs) and an Autocannon or Missile. The focus here being to keep it in the 80pt or under range.

 

I really wish GW would give snipers the pinning rule back. Barrage too for that matter.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Grenade launchers on vets, only if they are supposed to be cheap. Vets will usually get melta or plasma, as their BS4 gives them a better chance of hitting with those weapons.

 

I am finding myself liking Indefragable's suggestion of leaving the GL's out of my platoon squads, and simply taking a SWS. That would certainly simplify the shooting phase, especially with a combined squad. 9 extra S3 AP- shots is a big deal (I run 3 squads of infantry in my platoon). That's certainly worth considering.

[JeffJedi]

Well you can always use frag if you need it and I've hit 3 plenty of times with the small blast. (You can throw a frag with the Sgt also)

[CoffeeGrunt]

FRFSRF gives all your las-weaponry an extra shot, therefore, the more las weaponry in the unit, the better. That's why Laspistols on Sgts as well. 

 

FRFSRF specifically notes Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns as being affected. Laspistols get no bonus from it. :)

 

IMO, Veterans are there to do what the grunts can't, so mine go in fairly well-equipped. I also want a return on investment. A Chimera-borne Vet squad with three 'Nade Launchers costs 140pts, minimum, and it'll only really mildly harass targets. I mean really, what worthwhile target in the game fears three S6 AP4 shots? Giving them Melta makes them 155pts, and gives them the ability to intercept heavy armour. Plasma is 170pts and allows them to threaten all the targets the Grenade Launchers could far more effectively, as well as pull a bit of anti-light-armour duty and occasionally pounce on an MC or squad of Terminators.

 

As far as Guardsmen not being allowed upgrades, that's a bit silly as I've said multiple times to a local Guard player and friend of mine. Lasguns are awful. Triple-firing Lasguns are sub-mediocre. Throwing a few Flamers in means charging them gets really painful all of a sudden, and you can march the Flamers to the front as the enemy closes to dish out a healthy dose of hatred.

 

I only occasionally use 'Nade Launchers with them, but the benefit of being able to throw down some small blasts to harass hordes is valuable, plus you can throw Krak Grenades at tougher targets that eat Lasgun rounds for breakfast. Given that either weapon costs as much as one lowly Guardsman, it seems a good way to equip them that won't break the bank. Seriously, you can equip ten Infantry Squads with one of those weapons each, and it'd only cost you an additional Infantry Squad, (and you were hardly going to run eleven, were you?)

 

Plus they're only triple-firing if the enemy is at point-blank range, your Order goes off perfectly, and it's the Shooting Phase. You mention adding a Primaris Psyker of 75pts value to buff this with Prescience, but think a few 5pt weapons is a waste of points, which confuses me mightily. ;)

[Canadian_F_H]

Pretty much all of that. Hence why I put the gl on infantry squads. The cost and reach make a big difference. I save the melta and plasma for chimera veterans.

 

I use flamers on pcs as a response unit. They are usually right behind the infantry and can move to mitigate closing assault units while still being relatively disposable and not wasting bs4 on templates.

 

And some people load up their CCS, but they are already such a high value target, and by keeping them safe behind infantry yu are usually well out of melta and rapid fire plasma range, and flamers are a waste of bs4. So leave them cheap Las as an exclusive order giver. Or give them GL to effectively move and shoot to 24".

 

SWS are to ineffective for expensive meltas and plasmas imo, so those weapons stay with bs4 vets. SWS is for flamers when you think your PCS can't or shouldn't handle the job, or extra GL, or a handful of snipers only because they are cheap. sniper vets are better with cammo and hidden somewhere on an objective with other units. And then still ratlings are usually better I would think.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Personally, I like to use my Guard like this:

 

CCS - HWT or Snipers. Sit back in a Chimera or in Cover.

PCS - Heavy Flamer + Flamers. Advance and expunge.

Infantry - Flamers or 'Nade Launchers, no more.

Veterans - Plasma or Melta in a Chimmy.

SWS - Demolitions Charges, jump out of a Vendetta onto a juicy target.

Tea - Milk, one sugar, strong.

[Canadian_F_H]

Personally, I like to use my Guard like this:

 

CCS - HWT or Snipers. Sit back in a Chimera or in Cover.

PCS - Heavy Flamer + Flamers. Advance and expunge.

Infantry - Flamers or 'Nade Launchers, no more.

Veterans - Plasma or Melta in a Chimmy.

SWS - Demolitions Charges, jump out of a Vendetta onto a juicy target.

Tea - Milk, one sugar, strong.

Oh yeah, demo sws. Good call.

 

Also, I haven't discussed HWT at all . Mostly because I don't own many. When I get back around to working o. Guard I'll build some out of the set of 3 I have. You know all the extra bits...

 

I still feel iffy about it. I feel tanks are better with the big guns, and keep all infantry mobil.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The thing that bugs me is the erroneous 5pt tax per HWT for no real reason. It means they cost as much as a Devastator IIRC, and aren't nearly as good. It makes them feel pretty mediocre, whereas them being costed as 2 Guardsmen + weapon would be pretty solid. (I could see myself taking a 45pt Mortar Squad for some suppression, but at 60pts as they are now, it's so weak and the Wyvern utterly overshadows them.)

 

Personally I keep them to either Lascannon or Autocannon, but honestly they never saw play except in rare circumstances.

[Akrim]

This is why if I'm running an Infantry Platoon, I'm likely running 25-30 man Conscript squads with a Priest. Why pay 2pts more for reg Guardsmen to do the same job (advance, FRFSRF, die).

 

Go for the numbers, with Zealot and hymn luck they can do amazing things. Least of which being a nice thick barrier to protect the big guns from assaults/deep strike.

 

For Infantry Squads my go to is the Autocannon- good range and mid-S punch, 20 men, 2 ACs and a Commie. This is my rear rank. GLs could fit but honestly 90% of the time it's flamers for the wall of death.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I do love a proppa 50-man Conscript Squad with Priest and Psyker. The Psyker handles any big beasties that might slow them down, or can buff the bodies a bit. 50 dudes can be tough to shift. 50 dudes with a 4+ Invuln? Hilarious! They can dish out a ridiculous amount of hurt, and the Pskyer can pop MCs with their Force weapon while the regular chumps take the hits.

[Canadian_F_H]

The thing that bugs me is the erroneous 5pt tax per HWT for no real reason. It means they cost as much as a Devastator IIRC, and aren't nearly as good. It makes them feel pretty mediocre, whereas them being costed as 2 Guardsmen + weapon would be pretty solid. (I could see myself taking a 45pt Mortar Squad for some suppression, but at 60pts as they are now, it's so weak and the Wyvern utterly overshadows them.)

 

Personally I keep them to either Lascannon or Autocannon, but honestly they never saw play except in rare circumstances.

Thanks for the reminder. I've added the hws tax to my personal houserules.

[Indefragable]

FRFSRF gives all your las-weaponry an extra shot, therefore, the more las weaponry in the unit, the better. That's why Laspistols on Sgts as well.

FRFSRF specifically notes Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns as being affected. Laspistols get no bonus from it.

IMO, Veterans are there to do what the grunts can't, so mine go in fairly well-equipped. I also want a return on investment. A Chimera-borne Vet squad with three 'Nade Launchers costs 140pts, minimum, and it'll only really mildly harass targets. I mean really, what worthwhile target in the game fears three S6 AP4 shots? Giving them Melta makes them 155pts, and gives them the ability to intercept heavy armour. Plasma is 170pts and allows them to threaten all the targets the Grenade Launchers could far more effectively, as well as pull a bit of anti-light-armour duty and occasionally pounce on an MC or squad of Terminators.

As far as Guardsmen not being allowed upgrades, that's a bit silly as I've said multiple times to a local Guard player and friend of mine. Lasguns are awful. Triple-firing Lasguns are sub-mediocre. Throwing a few Flamers in means charging them gets really painful all of a sudden, and you can march the Flamers to the front as the enemy closes to dish out a healthy dose of hatred.

I only occasionally use 'Nade Launchers with them, but the benefit of being able to throw down some small blasts to harass hordes is valuable, plus you can throw Krak Grenades at tougher targets that eat Lasgun rounds for breakfast. Given that either weapon costs as much as one lowly Guardsman, it seems a good way to equip them that won't break the bank. Seriously, you can equip ten Infantry Squads with one of those weapons each, and it'd only cost you an additional Infantry Squad, (and you were hardly going to run eleven, were you?)

Plus they're only triple-firing if the enemy is at point-blank range, your Order goes off perfectly, and it's the Shooting Phase. You mention adding a Primaris Psyker of 75pts value to buff this with Prescience, but think a few 5pt weapons is a waste of points, which confuses me mightily.

Good looks on the FRFSRF piece. Re-reading the specific wording, you are correct. What a shame...laspistols are even more useless now.

I feel that my typical use could use some clarification:

Not sure what you mean "not being allowed" upgrades on platoons. I simply do not upgrade mine because Infantry Squads, for me, are there to hold objectives. The cheaper the better since they are going to die horribly no matter what you do. They sit on Obj, go to ground if anything bigger than a Bolter fires at them, and act as screens for other units. Their ideal targets to actually engage are other GEQ or TEQ. The reason I actually prefer them to shoot at TEQ is because of the rules of 1's: TEQ will eventually roll 1's and the more dice you make them roll, the better. Killing even 1 or 2 TEQ that way is amazing since they are "Free" kills that the heavy hitters of your army did not use their own shooting turn on.

As for the Prescience comment....I typically have at least 2x ML2 Primarii in my army, oftentimes 3x. I fish for the 4++ power and that Psyker goes in a ~50man Conscript blob with at least 2x Priests. That massive blob then clogs up the middle of the board or sits on the Relic while the Infantry Squads maneuver around it. As such, I typically have source of Prescience in range of any unit I want to give it to. Most often this is the Conscripts themselves (FRFSRF + Prescience). Basically, Conscripts for me are a giant black hole in the center of the board that harasses or swallows up anything that comes near it.

Now, a 50man Combined Squad Infantry Platoon could be used in much the same way I described my use of Conscripts above, albeit for 100pts and +1BS more. If you use Prescience....how much does BS3 really matter? The Platoon can have Sgts with power weapons and more special weapons, but in my experience, it is simply not worth it. Its lipstick on a pig, dumping points into Pawns and pretending they are Knights. Best to use Pawns as what they are to free up resources and maneuver room for the actual Knights [talking chess here, though leaving room for Imperial Knights is not a bad idea either].

I rarely use Special Weapons Squads, but when I do, they get either GL, Sniper, or Flamers. Sniper SWS are wonderful backfield Obj campers (36 OBSEC pts). I give them Flamers only if I know ahead of time I am going up against other GEQ, which is fairly rare, so Snipers most often and GL second most. And if I am giving them GL, then I am taking 3x SWS with 3x GLs each, so that's 9x S6 AP4 at BS3....not bad for Glancing a transport down to spill own its lasgun target dummies.

Heavy Weapons Teams have been nothing but a disappointment for me. They have consistently worse aim than Imperial Stormtroopers (the Star Wars kind!!!!). I had originally planned to have TONS of HWS's, but I think I have killed maybe 1 Rhino in 10+ games using Lascannon HWS's. They can't hit the side of a barn and are weaker than naked Eldar, it seems. Simply not reliable in my book, even in large numbers. A double-whammy of Tank Commander Vanquishers and Melta Vets gets the job done far more effectively.

[Canadian_F_H]

A lot of these problems and choices would change in the presence of doctrines...

 

A platoon of veterans would justify better armament.

 

A platoon with camo and infiltrate and banned from transports (my favorite 3rd edition doctrine btw) would be interesting.

 

A platoon with 4+ saves isn't to bad either.

 

A platoon of ws2bs2 conscript squads and a back to the front (replace refreshed squad into reserves) would be fun

 

 

 

Oh well..

[Indefragable]

A lot of these problems and choices would change in the presence of doctrines...

 

A platoon of veterans would justify better armament.

 

A platoon with camo and infiltrate and banned from transports (my favorite 3rd edition doctrine btw) would be interesting.

 

A platoon with 4+ saves isn't to bad either.

 

A platoon of ws2bs2 conscript squads and a back to the front (replace refreshed squad into reserves) would be fun

 

 

 

Oh well..

 

I think a 50man blob with 4+ saves could present balance issues. Ever face a 30boy mob of Orkz with 'ard armour (4+) and a Painboy? Thing is the perfect balance of quality and quanity and soaks up everything: low-AP stuff doesnt have the number of shots to carve through enough wounds, while stuff without AP has only 50% make its way through. 

 

Then again, I play on this very factor by going for a 50man Conscript blob with 4++ re-rollable [in melee], so who am I to talk? 

[Canadian_F_H]

that was the "grenedier" upgrade and predated combined squads... so idk. Perhaps no combining allowed in that set up, but something else...

[FlamingDeth]

I ended up replacing the GLs in my army since I rarely used them and when I did the impact was minimal. I rarely use the flamers too, but when the opportunity does come up they're a lot more effective.

 

CCS gets a lascannon only for a weapon upgrade to make use of BS4 and to stay far, far away from anything threatening.

[march10k]

I'm running a pair of them in my kasrkin ground assault formation's HQ squad...alongside a pair of flamers.  The truck only has two fire points, so until their ride is blown up, it works well, at least on paper.  I am super pressed for points, since I'm pairing the ground assault formation with the air assault formation in a single 1850 list as the ultimate glass hammer.  Even restricting myself to 20 points worth of weapons on the command squad, I still have only 60 points to spend on special weapons for the three line squads...That's two squads with a single plasma and one squad with a pair of them...all of the melta is in the air assault formation, I don't want to be assaulting upfield with AV 11/10/10 vehicles, my hope is to bury them in cover and engage with missiles, autocannons, and plasma guns, while the air assaulters provide maneuver.  We'll see how that works...

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair, you could just associate a points cost with the various doctrines to balance it out. Personally I've never seen Boyz with 'Ard Armour as most people just take more Boyz. You're making them twice as tough unless they get hit with AP4, in which case they cost more for the same amount of dying.