Praetorian of Dorn

[HeritorA]

My mistake - Night Lords are Khornate in Slaves to Darkness. 

There are a lot of Warbands. Even the one with Lord Acerbus have 2/3 khornate followers in it

[HeritorA]

Just some thoughts on what this means for the first Black Crusade.

I wonder if this gives any portents to Dorn's death after the heresy? Imagine Dorn's confusion and horror to seeing Alpharius (Omegon) alive all those years later. Even more delicious, imagine a sputtering, monologue'ing Dorn as a silent, retributive Omegon comes at him.

Also note that the Sword of Sacrilege where Dorn was killed was a Despoiler Class Battleship. Arkos's Anarchy's Heart was as well.

This is pure conjecture from a AL fan still in shock who keeps re-listening to the audio for hints that the Alpharius that Dorn killed is not the original...

Would be excellent.

Alpha legionaries bringing down Dorn. All the while Omegon and Dorn eyes locked while he is being dismembered.

Amen to that! Hydra Dominatus!

WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago?

Though, worth noting, it's not in the First Black Crusade as mentioned above.

That was a second - so being a true lorelover A D-B will kill Sigismund first

[Guest]

 

Only need Omegon dead and I'll be happy.... Between C'tan, Tau and AL they ruin 40k lore for me

 

[HeritorA]

WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago?

Is this a joke or are you actually posting massive spoilers in a non-spoiler thread?

Dude, that's stuff from the Index Astartes and codex article stuff. Saying that's a massive spoiler is like saying the Emperor is mortally wounded and Sanguinius dies is a spoiler. It's a well established thing that isn't in a novel.

Everyone that plays 40k should know that none of the loyalist Primarchs are around. It's stupid as hell that this is an issue.

@WoT,

Oh, yeah that makes sense then. I see where you are coming from.

I personally hope Dorn isn't really dead, since they didn't find his body

Yeah - that's loyalist Primarch trolls for you.

Curze had a vision of Dorn's death when they first met

always a good ice breaker

Always such a good container of evidence - you know how judicional system works

Russ, Khan, Dorn, Corax - they all went somewhere with mysterious circumstances and later would appear in W41K aka new Black Crusade campaign starting this autumn, lol

Only need Omegon dead and I'll be happy.... Between C'tan, Tau and AL they ruin 40k lore for me

Nope for you Tis HH - nobody stays here dead for long. Except for poor Ferrus and future dead corpse Sanguinius

We don't have enough proof as always with AL.

So from now and till the end of time - it would be 2 groups of fans.

The one who thinks

Alpharius is dead for good

and the one who thinks that it was a charade and

that was clone, Silonius, some other captain woth blood drinking - and Alphy is living happily ever after till Eskrandor

Here we go...

Come on man you have two people from the Black Library HH team outright saying Alpharius is dead dead. What more evidence do you need? Remember when Vulkan died, and we had hints that he wasn't dead dead? There aren't any of the sort for Alpharius.

There are no two camps. Only one.

Yeah - they told us Vulkan was dead too

[Tymell]

 

We don't have enough proof as always with AL.

So from now and till the end of time - it would be 2 groups of fans.

The one who thinks

Alpharius is dead for good

and the one who thinks that it was a charade and

that was clone, Silonius, some other captain woth blood drinking - and Alphy is living happily ever after till Eskrandor

 

Here we go...

Come on man you have two people from the Black Library HH team outright saying Alpharius is dead dead. What more evidence do you need? Remember when Vulkan died, and we had hints that he wasn't dead dead? There aren't any of the sort for Alpharius.

 

 

There are no two camps. Only one.

 

 

 

Well, maybe there are two camps, in the same way there are two sides to the Dead Parrot sketch. One side sees that Alpharius is dead, the other insists he's just pining for the fjords :p

 

Joking aside, it seems clear from the book that he's dead, both in the fact that he put up a good fight against Dorn and in Omegon's reaction later. Of course, there's always a way out, much like with comic books there's always the chance that something will come along later to change it all. But based on what we've seen in canon from Praetorian of Dorn, he's dead, Jim.

 

[helterskelter]

Now hopefully we've all gotten over that bit, way way way closer to the front of the book, and it may be that I might have misinterpreted my reading but

 

did dorn still get the heebiejeebies when he thought Curze might be involved?

 

[Mellow]

do you have the direct quote for that?

[helterskelter]

Reread the part I think I was mistaken, eyes flitted over the words a little too quickly

[Brother-serpent Tylydox]

I feel like quitting WH40K entirely after this book. I haven't played a single game for some time already and now reading the spoilers on the Lexicanum I think there is no point even collecting FW stuff. What a let down. AL have been kicked around in all books since the Legion but this is the final point where you ask yourself: "Is there even a point to continue?"

[DarkChaplain]

The AL have not been kicked around at all. Nevermind that you win some and lose some. If anything, they've been extremely effective across the series, whether it be on Tallarn, on Deliverance, on Terra, or taking out the Wolves for ages before they got surprise reinforcements by the Dark Angels.

If anything, Praetorian of Dorn has more instances of them scoring big than any book before, including Legion.

[Brother-serpent Tylydox]

As an AL fan I can tell you that I would gladly have a single example where so presumed AL effectiveness as a legion might shows but the best I could get are some Pyrrhic victories.  AL doesn't have a single clear and overwhelming victory in all BL/FW books.  This book was the last nail in the coffin for me personally.

[DarkChaplain]

That is very much down to how the AL operate, and what makes them interesting. They can do well enough in regular warfare, they're Space Marines after all - but their specialty is in covert ops and playing the long con. Their goals and methods are far more convoluted than those of other Legions. Most of their activities in the Heresy are trying to influence the course of history to their liking, nudging other forces here and there - that's a different type of victory, I give you that, but its not that they don't win. They win where it counts for their agenda.

And even then, the stuff they pull off in Praetorian of Dorn is incredible, utterly brilliantly coordinated and all in character of the Legion.

 

It seems also kinda ironic for an Alpha Legion fan to complain about their army not winning enough when this is the first real Imperial Fists book in the series, and apart from some stories like The Crimson Fist or Templar, have never been in the thick of it. And even then, The Crimson Fist had them take massive losses and retreat by Dorn's orders. You're somehow complaining that the AL didn't completely trump the stars of the book, who desperately needed some big success of their own.

[mc warhammer]

That is very much down to how the AL operate, and what makes them interesting. They can do well enough in regular warfare, they're Space Marines after all - but their specialty is in covert ops and playing the long con. Their goals and methods are far more convoluted than those of other Legions. Most of their activities in the Heresy are trying to influence the course of history to their liking, nudging other forces here and there - that's a different type of victory, I give you that, but its not that they don't win. They win where it counts for their agenda.

And even then, the stuff they pull off in Praetorian of Dorn is incredible, utterly brilliantly coordinated and all in character of the Legion.

 

It seems also kinda ironic for an Alpha Legion fan to complain about their army not winning enough when this is the first real Imperial Fists book in the series, and apart from some stories like The Crimson Fist or Templar, have never been in the thick of it. And even then, The Crimson Fist had them take massive losses and retreat by Dorn's orders. You're somehow complaining that the AL didn't completely trump the stars of the book, who desperately needed some big success of their own.

 

so what's the feeling on the "winner" in this book? if? al (even though they lose their primarch)? neither? both?

[Lurking Hydra]

I feel like quitting WH40K entirely after this book. I haven't played a single game for some time already and now reading the spoilers on the Lexicanum I think there is no point even collecting FW stuff. What a let down. AL have been kicked around in all books since the Legion but this is the final point where you ask yourself: "Is there even a point to continue?"

It's a boot to the junk, and it has definitely diminished my interest in following the rest of the series.

[Acolyte of Dorn]

I truly don't understand AL fans complaining about this book. I have 3500 pts in Alpha Legion and a sizable Imperial Fists force as well so don't accuse me of favoritism please.

 

The Alphas embarrassed the Fists at every turn in this story. One legionary from the Alphas was portrayed as superior to 3-4x that many Fists. Alpharius seemingly ran mental circles around Dorn well in advance of any attempts to fortify Sol/Terra. The Alphas launched crippling Naval strikes on what is supposed to be the preeminent Astartes fleet. They soundly trounced Rann and Sigismund's forces as well.

 

The argument could also be made that Dorn made a colossal blunder in his actions at the end of the story and that Alpharius was in fact hoping to help him in a misguided way.

[A D-B]

I truly don't understand AL fans complaining about this book. I have 3500 pts in Alpha Legion and a sizable Imperial Fists force as well so don't accuse me of favoritism please.

 

The Alphas embarrassed the Fists at every turn in this story. One legionary from the Alphas was portrayed as superior to 3-4x that many Fists. Alpharius seemingly ran mental circles around Dorn well in advance of any attempts to fortify Sol/Terra. The Alphas launched crippling Naval strikes on what is supposed to be the preeminent Astartes fleet. They soundly trounced Rann and Sigismund's forces as well.

 

The argument could also be made that Dorn made a colossal blunder in his actions at the end of the story and that Alpharius was in fact hoping to help him in a misguided way.

 

I mean this with all the patience and love in the world, but the attitude you're talking about is the 100% perfect representation of why you genuinely can't please all the people, all the time. You see it when Author X or Rules Designer Y is being derided for Sin Z, and the critic will occasionally put forward their preference for an event, implying it would've been better and made more people happy. But that's the trick, really. Everyone approaches the lore so differently, with completely, utterly different perspectives that they regard as simple truth, and with completely different expectations on how some things function, that discord is inevitable.

 

That's how you get threads where some people genuinely think the Alpha Legion look like chumps, and others are mystified because they believe the Alpha Legion made the Imperial Fists look like chumps, and others believe it was a balanced portrayal, and so on. And even amidst that, there are nuances - some people will dislike that their preferred faction doesn't win, or didn't win the way they wanted, or find it unbelievable that they lost/won in that particular way, or whatever else. 

 

I don't mean to hold court here - this is something everyone knows to some extent and has experienced themselves. It sounds mundane and silly, but it's so freaking crucial to grasping this fandom. It took me years, and I'm still surprised when I see it happening with something that seems so cut and dried to me. It only becomes a problem with the kind of minds that refuse to back down and at least try to take an objective run at something. That's the thing, though. Everyone tends to think their view is objective.

 

Ah, what fun.

[b1soul]

I think the AL come across as highly competent in PoD

 

The Fists come across as relatively simple-minded...but that's their nature

 

Horus sums it up nicely when he says something to the effect of "Alpharius ties himself up in knots of his own devising"

 

Honestly, it seems like

 

 

both primarchs messed up here...Dorn jumped the gun and just axed Alpharius. Alpharius hilariously thought he could pursuade Dorn

 

[Lurking Hydra]

I truly don't understand AL fans complaining about this book. I have 3500 pts in Alpha Legion and a sizable Imperial Fists force as well so don't accuse me of favoritism please.

 

The Alphas embarrassed the Fists at every turn in this story. One legionary from the Alphas was portrayed as superior to 3-4x that many Fists. Alpharius seemingly ran mental circles around Dorn well in advance of any attempts to fortify Sol/Terra. The Alphas launched crippling Naval strikes on what is supposed to be the preeminent Astartes fleet. They soundly trounced Rann and Sigismund's forces as well.

 

The argument could also be made that Dorn made a colossal blunder in his actions at the end of the story and that Alpharius was in fact hoping to help him in a misguided way.

 

Speaking only for myself, my complaint isn't with the book itself.  I'm feeling the sting of suddenly and unexpectedly losing my favorite character from the series.

 

I feel like there was still a lot of potential for some great storytelling and development that has seemingly been cut short.  That's a bummer.

[Mellow]

I agree that whilst the Fists are meant to be brilliant defence builders it wouldn't make for a very interesting read if the AL "specialists" died by the droves at the defensive walls.

 

Plus they may have won most of the minor incursions throughout the book but that big loss at the end more than balances it out.

[mc warhammer]

 

I truly don't understand AL fans complaining about this book. I have 3500 pts in Alpha Legion and a sizable Imperial Fists force as well so don't accuse me of favoritism please.

 

The Alphas embarrassed the Fists at every turn in this story. One legionary from the Alphas was portrayed as superior to 3-4x that many Fists. Alpharius seemingly ran mental circles around Dorn well in advance of any attempts to fortify Sol/Terra. The Alphas launched crippling Naval strikes on what is supposed to be the preeminent Astartes fleet. They soundly trounced Rann and Sigismund's forces as well.

 

The argument could also be made that Dorn made a colossal blunder in his actions at the end of the story and that Alpharius was in fact hoping to help him in a misguided way.

 

Speaking only for myself, my complaint isn't with the book itself.  I'm feeling the sting of suddenly and unexpectedly losing my favorite character from the series.

 

I feel like there was still a lot of potential for some great storytelling and development that has seemingly been cut short.  That's a bummer.

 

 

and that's fair. i'm feeling something similar, and while i'm fine with the character dying in the heresy at this point in the timeline, it feels enormously anti climatic in terms of his and the his legion's own timeline and arc. i still don't see the point in a twin primach reveal that goes nowhere.

 

the thing is, 40/30k is so vast and full of different angles, elements and teams that there almost seems to be "something for everyone" and when one of those "something's" is altered, lost or badly handled (and yes, some of 30k has been badly handled from an objective stand point) you're going to affect that part of your audience. some who are 100% invested in that element and that element alone are going to drop off, and that's to be expected. that's how the property is built and that's the risk it invites.

 

i tend to follow authors rather than characters, so i was surprised at my own mixed feelings towards what i know of this book. my hope is that BL will explore more of the alpharius and omegon relationship in stories set before PoD rather than do a reveal that he is still alive or bring him back via chaos.

[Tymell]

AL doesn't have a single clear and overwhelming victory in all BL/FW books.

Paramar V was one, and there were some pre-heresy ones from their FW entry. And while not conventional or full battlefield engagements, they seemed to win out in Hunter's Moon, The Face of Treachery, Deliverance Lost, The Harrowing, Liar's Due and on Tallarn.

 

And the thing is, how many "clear and overwhelming" victories are there for anyone in the Heresy? It's the nature of the series, most of the conflicts don't truly go overwhelmingly in anyone's favour.

 

As ADB says, you'll have some saying the AL are whipping boys getting their butts handed to them, others saying they're mary sues who run rings around the other legions, and both sides convinced they're right.

[Sete]

 

 

I truly don't understand AL fans complaining about this book. I have 3500 pts in Alpha Legion and a sizable Imperial Fists force as well so don't accuse me of favoritism please.

 

The Alphas embarrassed the Fists at every turn in this story. One legionary from the Alphas was portrayed as superior to 3-4x that many Fists. Alpharius seemingly ran mental circles around Dorn well in advance of any attempts to fortify Sol/Terra. The Alphas launched crippling Naval strikes on what is supposed to be the preeminent Astartes fleet. They soundly trounced Rann and Sigismund's forces as well.

 

The argument could also be made that Dorn made a colossal blunder in his actions at the end of the story and that Alpharius was in fact hoping to help him in a misguided way.

Speaking only for myself, my complaint isn't with the book itself. I'm feeling the sting of suddenly and unexpectedly losing my favorite character from the series.

 

I feel like there was still a lot of potential for some great storytelling and development that has seemingly been cut short. That's a bummer.

In this thread "swimming around" like a shark after blood is the guy that is going to kill my favourite caracther. Am I upset? Hella upset! RAWRRR

But I have come to terms that it is the nature of the fluff.

Just roll with the punches ;) and enjoy the books for what they are.

Works of fiction, meant to entertain and tell stories of dystopian lands and futures.

[HeritorA]

I truly don't understand AL fans complaining about this book. I have 3500 pts in Alpha Legion and a sizable Imperial Fists force as well so don't accuse me of favoritism please.

The Alphas embarrassed the Fists at every turn in this story. One legionary from the Alphas was portrayed as superior to 3-4x that many Fists. Alpharius seemingly ran mental circles around Dorn well in advance of any attempts to fortify Sol/Terra. The Alphas launched crippling Naval strikes on what is supposed to be the preeminent Astartes fleet. They soundly trounced Rann and Sigismund's forces as well.

The argument could also be made that Dorn made a colossal blunder in his actions at the end of the story and that Alpharius was in fact hoping to help him in a misguided way.

Speaking only for myself, my complaint isn't with the book itself. I'm feeling the sting of suddenly and unexpectedly losing my favorite character from the series.

I feel like there was still a lot of potential for some great storytelling and development that has seemingly been cut short. That's a bummer.

In this thread "swimming around" like a shark after blood is the guy that is going to kill my favourite caracther. Am I upset? Hella upset! RAWRRR

But I have come to terms that it is the nature of the fluff.

Just roll with the punches and enjoy the books for what they are.

Works of fiction, meant to entertain and tell stories of dystopian lands and futures.

I'm an AL fun - and that's book is amazing for me. Both AL and IF has a point to shine and ideology of Legions is shown from good points of view. John made a very good book, don't understand people who are whining about it's being a bad book.

You want a bad HH book - go read Descent of Angels, Vulkan lives and Deathfire

[Guest]

In this thread "swimming around" like a shark after blood is the guy that is going to kill my favourite caracther. Am I upset? Hella upset! RAWRRR

But I have come to terms that it is the nature of the fluff.

Just roll with the punches and enjoy the books for what they are.

Works of fiction, meant to entertain and tell stories of dystopian lands and futures.

Well I think the BT fans will have a heart attack if Abaddon beats Siggles like the red-headed step child he is :)

ADB will be cursed to high heaven for daring to touch the wayward boy-child known as Sigismund.

The complaints about how AL are treated in this book are a joke. The Legion with more plot armour that Tau.

[Guest]

I think the AL come across as highly competent in PoD

 

The Fists come across as relatively simple-minded...but that's their nature

 

Horus sums it up nicely when he says something to the effect of "Alpharius ties himself up in knots of his own devising"

 

Honestly, it seems like

 

 

both primarchs messed up here...Dorn jumped the gun and just axed Alpharius. Alpharius hilariously thought he could pursuade Dorn

 

 

 

But thats the opinion I get of Dorn he is reactionary.