Praetorian of Dorn

[caladancid]

The last few HH 'progression' novels have been fantastic. I personally loved Pharos, and was a huge fan of Path of Heaven. John French, no doubt, just wrote one of the best novels of the HH series. The Crimson Fist was great also, but sometimes I think certain authors are better at shorter formats and that has been my experience generally with John French. The Ahriman books were ok to me, but nothing like his short stories and novellas. That has changed, this story didn't let up from start to finish. It started with a fast beat, calmed down (but still with this feeling of something inevitable coming), then brought it right back over the top.

 

One of the things I liked the best was the continuing humanization of the astartes, along with the continuing dehumanization of the primarchs. Showing the astartes as altered humans, but the primarchs as things that look human is genius. Can you tell I thought this was an awesome story?

[Morovir]

Did anyone else realise that 

 

 

Arkos the Faithless (from the Siege of Vraks)

 

 

was in the epilogue?

[Kais Klip]

I thought he sounded familiar

[Morovir]

He is

[Taliesin]

Guys, just wanted to say, I want to keep reading this thread to read the opinions/reviews of the book.

 

I do not want to run into actual spoilers for the book. As such, if someone puts a spoiler in spoiler code, when you reply to it, you obviously need to spoiler your text as well. I noticed that was done very poorly by some with both Path of Heaven and Angels of Caliban and just want to emphasize that your response to someone posting a hidden spoiler is a spoiler just as well, and can diminish someone else's reading experience.

 

If you want to talk spoilers that is absolutely fine but please open a spoiler thread and leave this one for people to post their general thoughts on the book.

 

Having said that, very excited to hear that this already excellent looking book is getting such praise. This and Master of Mankind to me are an incredibly interesting "duology" of sorts showing us what is going on at Terra and the Solar system.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Alternatively make a dedicated spoiler-free review thread and maintain that?

[Petitioner's City]

I think it's fair to ask readers to spoiler code for a few weeks, it's polite for sure and a sign of respect to fellow readers behind the times.

 

Is it possible to give spoilers 'titles', eg 'spoiler about X' so discussions can run that way? That happens on the trekbbs forum when discussing new books. But then not always.

[DuskRaider]

Don't read the spoiler unless you are entirely certain you want the potential fun spoiled. Just trust me on this.

 

 

Turn back now!

 

It is indeed the real Alpharius.

 

He dies to Rogal

 

Omegon becomes Alpharius for good

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is this a joke?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

nope

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Frankly guys and girls, I think going into any topic discussing a book and NOT expecting some sort of spoilers is slightly silly. 

 

If you are worried about spoilers, join the discussion after you've read the book. 

[Kriegsmacht]

So it's really difficult for people to type in [spoiler ]

?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

So it's really difficult for people to type in [spoiler ]

?

 

apparently as difficult as it is to not read a topic.

[Sete]

Just read the book. My annoyance at the super feats of alpha legionaires and their agents was completely washed away by that ending.

[DuskRaider]

nope

 

I uhh...

 

 

that's ridiculous. I was honestly looking forward to a huge side war involving the Alpha Legion against itself, but my hopes have effectively been dashed. On the other hand, I suppose they needed to have Dorn do something, since otherwise he's kind of just a superhuman space foreman.

 

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

nope

 

I uhh...

 

 

that's ridiculous. I was honestly looking forward to a huge side war involving the Alpha Legion against itself, but my hopes have effectively been dashed. On the other hand, I suppose they needed to have Dorn do something, since otherwise he's kind of just a superhuman space foreman.

 

 

To be fair...

I think there's a crapton of AL that don't know, and between all of the Legionaries that that have his knowledge via blood gobbling...think this might lead to an even larger war

 

[Kelborn]

Agreed on DuskRaider.

 

 

 

With Alpharius dead and Omegon taking his place, it's like one of the biggest W T F moments in the HH era.

Though I can understand that Dorn finally had to do something and that it is a truly shocking moment, making the reader speechless.

 

But now? I would rather enjoy an internal AL civil war or a clear divide between the true loyalists and the traitor-loyalists. Hec, all this theories about Omegon potentially becoming a Grey Knight were for nothing.

 

Does that mean that Omegon will die at the hands of Guiliman? Really??

 

If so, then the AL truly joins chaos as how should someone like Ingo Pech or Herzog keep the Legion together and keep them loyal without their fathers?

 

If not, does that mean that Omegon might be out there, scheeming and planning with his part of the Legion, while the rest was corrupted?

 

Again, I can truly understand why most of you love that fact. But for me (and that is my personal pov!), it screws up the AL. Nevertheless, I will wait for more stuff about them as they are one of my all time fav Legions. Maybe I am wrong right now and it will be glorious. For the time being, meh. :/

 

[Marshal Rohr]

It's a little disappointing that the Fists novel has bee hijacked by the one legion that needs literally no more screen time. This novel really should have focused solely on the culture and organization of the fists instead of being a vehicle for more alpha sneakiness.

 

It sounds like a great story that moves the heresy forward but if you are actually a fists player then you can :cuss right off because you're never going to get the attention of the other legions.

[Balthamal]

Finished about half an hour or so ago - read it in a single sitting which speaks to the quality of the work. So.....thoughts.

Dorn - Actually have an appreciation for him now. Was a clever move to play up his idealism since, while not necessarily vindicating his flaws, at the very least makes them understandable. Plus I thought the scene where he schools Alpharius on the ways he could have better made use of his methods of war was borderline genius.

Sigismund - Really wanted to see more from him so disappointed on that score but can appreciate it wasn't his story.

Archamus - Interesting character - bit sad his arc has gone the way it has but some of his scenes were the best in the book. Swearing his oath to Dorn over the fire was awesome.

Andromeda - I want to know more about this cult of witches or whatever the hell they are. Much like the Perpetuals they're going to need some more showtime - Having them as the driving force behind developing gene-seed replication techniques is a pretty unique thing to tag onto them.

Phocron - Anyone who has read "We Are One" will pick up on the name straight away and I really liked seeing the interactions between him, his "squad" and Silonius. There's something we don't really see with the faceless aspect of the Alphas too much, in that how they react with others. I mean he barely bats an eye lid when one of his squad with different parameters peels off and goes solo and yet I thought the way his, not so much misgivings, but more unease with the lack of information, was portrayed as excellent. They might be trained and hardwired to carry out orders in complete isolation yet when these Astartes bump into each other it's not seamless integration which to me is a helpful handbrake on the overall perception of the Alpha Legion's power.

Alpharius - I mean, well, DAMN. I've been saying pretty much from the time Scars was out that the loyalist Primarchs really needed to stamp hard on some of the traitors otherwise it would get boring as hell. And here we are two years or whatever it is later and the two traitors to get their arses handed to them are the ones whose Legions I'm playing

That aside I loved the implied schemes and actually manoeuvring between the Primarch and the rest of his Legion. The twist with Silonius actually commanding the Alpha whereas Alpharius himself was on Terra was excellent. Like others I was convinced that there'd be a further twist right up until we saw Omegon at the end. However the two things I took from that; firstly, his loss - whether he and Alpharius were genuinely in contention with each other over the course of the war or were simply playing an agreed part about which side of the conflict they would aid you could tell his loss was unlike anything that any of the Primarchs had gone through before and secondly, his incredible ability to continue to plot and scheme - he's literally felt his brother, his genuine gene-brother die from an unknown distance across the galaxy and straight away he's back on his game, knowing that HE will forever be Alpharius, although expressing the irony in the situation I thought was the perfect touch.

The Alpha Legion as a whole - There's going to be some people who will complain at the Alpha's ability to literally get in anywhere and strike wherever they want. Personally I thought their apparent power was within an acceptable level of what I'd expect from a Legion whose air they breathe is literally the only honest thing about them. JF went to a great deal of trouble to represent the amount of effort and planning that their ploys would take to achieve. Indeed planting kill teams on Terra a decade in advance is hardly a snap of the fingers and away you go style of execution. Does it feel too far fetched? To some it will, but at least the point is made that when the initial steps of these plans were put in motion, they were counted as loyal and had pretty much free reign to do as they wished. I'm a little torn with everything we've been given from the XX mainly because of my own project built around them. This book has given validation to a good chunk of my ideas and blown apart others but at the same time given them more than just "sneaky sneaky". The Harrowing that was imminent in Legion and hinted at elsewhere finally gets shown in detail and it's wonderful.

I think the fact that a large part of the book is devoted to the Alphas will annoy people - after all it's supposed to be Dorn's book. But to be honest I felt the amount of time spent on him was appropriate for the revelations it provided. I think if more focus had gone on him it would have been filler - the stuff that he is present in is always relevant, adds significant facets to his character and doesn't seem added for gratification. Much like Perturabo ended up being the star of Angel Exterminatus as a natural evolution of the story, the same thing happens with Alpharius here. And after all Dorn gets probably the biggest moment of loyalist glory so far - killing a Primarch

It's a little disappointing that the Fists novel has bee hijacked by the one legion that needs literally no more screen time. This novel really should have focused solely on the culture and organization of the fists instead of being a vehicle for more alpha sneakiness.

It sounds like a great story that moves the heresy forward but if you are actually a fists player then you can right off because you're never going to get the attention of the other legions.

I'm not sure what you want to see about culture and organisation? By the time this novel comes around they've been sitting on the walls of Terra watching every day for the war to come. They're not the same as they were during the Great Crusade. Plus all told you have; the initiation process of the first intake after Dorn was reunited with the Legion, examples of Legion combat doctrine in battle during the Great Crusade and instances of actions by the "big 5" in the Legion on/around Terra - Sigismund, Camba Diaz, Effried, Archamus and Rann

[Taliesin]

Frankly guys and girls, I think going into any topic discussing a book and NOT expecting some sort of spoilers is slightly silly. 

 

If you are worried about spoilers, join the discussion after you've read the book. 

 

That's actually a very bad comment to make from a moderator's perspective, which I note from your title, you are.

 

There's no need to post spoilers in a non-spoilers thread. It is also far easier to open a spoilers thread so that no one needs to mark his posts in spoiler code every single time. People who don't mind some minor spoilers but don't want actual events ruined ( like myself) can still read this thread for other's review/opinion on the book in general. 

[Balthamal]

But that's part of the problem - this isn't designated a spoiler free thread. If it were, then it would be pretty cut and dried. Granted it isn't distinctly labelled "Spoilers Inside" either which it perhaps should be but that's not really the issue. The book has been out a couple of days for people who buy ebooks. And if those people want to discuss parts of it with others who have read it and/or people who really have no interest in reading it and just want to know what happens what's wrong with them doing that in a thread? I mean at the end of the day what are people expecting when browsing through a thread from a newly released book? I'd think most people who have plans for reading it wouldn't even try chancing it in case there were bits and pieces in that they wanted to find out for themselves

[Marshal Rohr]

Finished about half an hour or so ago - read it in a single sitting which speaks to the quality of the work. So.....thoughts.

Dorn - Actually have an appreciation for him now. Was a clever move to play up his idealism since, while not necessarily vindicating his flaws, at the very least makes them understandable. Plus I thought the scene where he schools Alpharius on the ways he could have better made use of his methods of war was borderline genius.

Sigismund - Really wanted to see more from him so disappointed on that score but can appreciate it wasn't his story.

Archamus - Interesting character - bit sad his arc has gone the way it has but some of his scenes were the best in the book. Swearing his oath to Dorn over the fire was awesome.

Andromeda - I want to know more about this cult of witches or whatever the hell they are. Much like the Perpetuals they're going to need some more showtime - Having them as the driving force behind developing gene-seed replication techniques is a pretty unique thing to tag onto them.

Phocron - Anyone who has read "We Are One" will pick up on the name straight away and I really liked seeing the interactions between him, his "squad" and Silonius. There's something we don't really see with the faceless aspect of the Alphas too much, in that how they react with others. I mean he barely bats an eye lid when one of his squad with different parameters peels off and goes solo and yet I thought the way his, not so much misgivings, but more unease with the lack of information, was portrayed as excellent. They might be trained and hardwired to carry out orders in complete isolation yet when these Astartes bump into each other it's not seamless integration which to me is a helpful handbrake on the overall perception of the Alpha Legion's power.

Alpharius - I mean, well, DAMN. I've been saying pretty much from the time Scars was out that the loyalist Primarchs really needed to stamp hard on some of the traitors otherwise it would get boring as hell. And here we are two years or whatever it is later and the two traitors to get their arses handed to them are the ones whose Legions I'm playing

That aside I loved the implied schemes and actually manoeuvring between the Primarch and the rest of his Legion. The twist with Silonius actually commanding the Alpha whereas Alpharius himself was on Terra was excellent. Like others I was convinced that there'd be a further twist right up until we saw Omegon at the end. However the two things I took from that; firstly, his loss - whether he and Alpharius were genuinely in contention with each other over the course of the war or were simply playing an agreed part about which side of the conflict they would aid you could tell his loss was unlike anything that any of the Primarchs had gone through before and secondly, his incredible ability to continue to plot and scheme - he's literally felt his brother, his genuine gene-brother die from an unknown distance across the galaxy and straight away he's back on his game, knowing that HE will forever be Alpharius, although expressing the irony in the situation I thought was the perfect touch.

The Alpha Legion as a whole - There's going to be some people who will complain at the Alpha's ability to literally get in anywhere and strike wherever they want. Personally I thought their apparent power was within an acceptable level of what I'd expect from a Legion whose air they breathe is literally the only honest thing about them. JF went to a great deal of trouble to represent the amount of effort and planning that their ploys would take to achieve. Indeed planting kill teams on Terra a decade in advance is hardly a snap of the fingers and away you go style of execution. Does it feel too far fetched? To some it will, but at least the point is made that when the initial steps of these plans were put in motion, they were counted as loyal and had pretty much free reign to do as they wished. I'm a little torn with everything we've been given from the XX mainly because of my own project built around them. This book has given validation to a good chunk of my ideas and blown apart others but at the same time given them more than just "sneaky sneaky". The Harrowing that was imminent in Legion and hinted at elsewhere finally gets shown in detail and it's wonderful.

I think the fact that a large part of the book is devoted to the Alphas will annoy people - after all it's supposed to be Dorn's book. But to be honest I felt the amount of time spent on him was appropriate for the revelations it provided. I think if more focus had gone on him it would have been filler - the stuff that he is present in is always relevant, adds significant facets to his character and doesn't seem added for gratification. Much like Perturabo ended up being the star of Angel Exterminatus as a natural evolution of the story, the same thing happens with Alpharius here. And after all Dorn gets probably the biggest moment of loyalist glory so far - killing a Primarch

It's a little disappointing that the Fists novel has bee hijacked by the one legion that needs literally no more screen time. This novel really should have focused solely on the culture and organization of the fists instead of being a vehicle for more alpha sneakiness.

It sounds like a great story that moves the heresy forward but if you are actually a fists player then you can right off because you're never going to get the attention of the other legions.

I'm not sure what you want to see about culture and organisation? By the time this novel comes around they've been sitting on the walls of Terra watching every day for the war to come. They're not the same as they were during the Great Crusade. Plus all told you have; the initiation process of the first intake after Dorn was reunited with the Legion, examples of Legion combat doctrine in battle during the Great Crusade and instances of actions by the "big 5" in the Legion on/around Terra - Sigismund, Camba Diaz, Effried, Archamus and Rann

It's mostly the fact night lords, word bearers, ultras, dark Angels, white scars and pretty much everyone else have language fragments cultural profiles, and the full ADB treatment but the fists are just stoic.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Frankly guys and girls, I think going into any topic discussing a book and NOT expecting some sort of spoilers is slightly silly. 

 

If you are worried about spoilers, join the discussion after you've read the book. 

 

That's actually a very bad comment to make from a moderator's perspective, which I note from your title, you are.

 

There's no need to post spoilers in a non-spoilers thread. It is also far easier to open a spoilers thread so that no one needs to mark his posts in spoiler code every single time. People who don't mind some minor spoilers but don't want actual events ruined ( like myself) can still read this thread for other's review/opinion on the book in general. 

 

 

Was the words in orange? No? Then I wasnt wearing my mod hat, just another poster on B&C. 

 

There is a report function if you feel the post was harmful or needs specific attention. 

[Balthamal]

Finished about half an hour or so ago - read it in a single sitting which speaks to the quality of the work. So.....thoughts.

Dorn - Actually have an appreciation for him now. Was a clever move to play up his idealism since, while not necessarily vindicating his flaws, at the very least makes them understandable. Plus I thought the scene where he schools Alpharius on the ways he could have better made use of his methods of war was borderline genius.

Sigismund - Really wanted to see more from him so disappointed on that score but can appreciate it wasn't his story.

Archamus - Interesting character - bit sad his arc has gone the way it has but some of his scenes were the best in the book. Swearing his oath to Dorn over the fire was awesome.

Andromeda - I want to know more about this cult of witches or whatever the hell they are. Much like the Perpetuals they're going to need some more showtime - Having them as the driving force behind developing gene-seed replication techniques is a pretty unique thing to tag onto them.

Phocron - Anyone who has read "We Are One" will pick up on the name straight away and I really liked seeing the interactions between him, his "squad" and Silonius. There's something we don't really see with the faceless aspect of the Alphas too much, in that how they react with others. I mean he barely bats an eye lid when one of his squad with different parameters peels off and goes solo and yet I thought the way his, not so much misgivings, but more unease with the lack of information, was portrayed as excellent. They might be trained and hardwired to carry out orders in complete isolation yet when these Astartes bump into each other it's not seamless integration which to me is a helpful handbrake on the overall perception of the Alpha Legion's power.

Alpharius - I mean, well, DAMN. I've been saying pretty much from the time Scars was out that the loyalist Primarchs really needed to stamp hard on some of the traitors otherwise it would get boring as hell. And here we are two years or whatever it is later and the two traitors to get their arses handed to them are the ones whose Legions I'm playing

That aside I loved the implied schemes and actually manoeuvring between the Primarch and the rest of his Legion. The twist with Silonius actually commanding the Alpha whereas Alpharius himself was on Terra was excellent. Like others I was convinced that there'd be a further twist right up until we saw Omegon at the end. However the two things I took from that; firstly, his loss - whether he and Alpharius were genuinely in contention with each other over the course of the war or were simply playing an agreed part about which side of the conflict they would aid you could tell his loss was unlike anything that any of the Primarchs had gone through before and secondly, his incredible ability to continue to plot and scheme - he's literally felt his brother, his genuine gene-brother die from an unknown distance across the galaxy and straight away he's back on his game, knowing that HE will forever be Alpharius, although expressing the irony in the situation I thought was the perfect touch.

The Alpha Legion as a whole - There's going to be some people who will complain at the Alpha's ability to literally get in anywhere and strike wherever they want. Personally I thought their apparent power was within an acceptable level of what I'd expect from a Legion whose air they breathe is literally the only honest thing about them. JF went to a great deal of trouble to represent the amount of effort and planning that their ploys would take to achieve. Indeed planting kill teams on Terra a decade in advance is hardly a snap of the fingers and away you go style of execution. Does it feel too far fetched? To some it will, but at least the point is made that when the initial steps of these plans were put in motion, they were counted as loyal and had pretty much free reign to do as they wished. I'm a little torn with everything we've been given from the XX mainly because of my own project built around them. This book has given validation to a good chunk of my ideas and blown apart others but at the same time given them more than just "sneaky sneaky". The Harrowing that was imminent in Legion and hinted at elsewhere finally gets shown in detail and it's wonderful.

I think the fact that a large part of the book is devoted to the Alphas will annoy people - after all it's supposed to be Dorn's book. But to be honest I felt the amount of time spent on him was appropriate for the revelations it provided. I think if more focus had gone on him it would have been filler - the stuff that he is present in is always relevant, adds significant facets to his character and doesn't seem added for gratification. Much like Perturabo ended up being the star of Angel Exterminatus as a natural evolution of the story, the same thing happens with Alpharius here. And after all Dorn gets probably the biggest moment of loyalist glory so far - killing a Primarch

It's a little disappointing that the Fists novel has bee hijacked by the one legion that needs literally no more screen time. This novel really should have focused solely on the culture and organization of the fists instead of being a vehicle for more alpha sneakiness.

It sounds like a great story that moves the heresy forward but if you are actually a fists player then you can right off because you're never going to get the attention of the other legions.

I'm not sure what you want to see about culture and organisation? By the time this novel comes around they've been sitting on the walls of Terra watching every day for the war to come. They're not the same as they were during the Great Crusade. Plus all told you have; the initiation process of the first intake after Dorn was reunited with the Legion, examples of Legion combat doctrine in battle during the Great Crusade and instances of actions by the "big 5" in the Legion on/around Terra - Sigismund, Camba Diaz, Effried, Archamus and Rann

It's mostly the fact night lords, word bearers, ultras, dark Angels, white scars and pretty much everyone else have language fragments cultural profiles, and the full ADB treatment but the fists are just stoic.

Fair point but when that's already been explored, at least in part in the Crimson Fist, why go over the same ground? There's a wealth of information about the culture that runs through the Legion in there. It just isn't as quite up in your face and hammered home as consistently as say the Ultras or the Night Lords

[Marshal Loss]

The true victim of this novel...

 

 

After how awesome Alpharius' spear is in this novel, I really hope Omegon has a spare lol. It would be incredibly lame for the myth of Alpharius to continue without his incredibly badass disassembling spear.

 

[Augustus]

 

 

Perhaps Alpharius' spear has something to do with the Soul Drinkers?

 

Also, one of Alpharius' (what I assumed are prized possessions) is a winged sword pedant locked in Stasis. I wonder who gave it to him. Luther or the Lion?

 

The Swearing of Oaths with a hand in a flame -- Crimson Fist connection?