Praetorian of Dorn

[b1soul]

OK  - about the last chapters and one major event:

 

 

  Dorn did not kill Alpharius. Because that was not Alpharius  - it was an Alpha clone, made by AL librarians and genetechs using the same technology and genecipher stolen in 'Deliverance lost'. Actually all his fleet was manned by cloned legioners - that's make a lot of sense.

 

Knowing Alpharius - it was a great test for new clones from the laboratory. That's why 'fake Alpharius' spent a year in stasis. AL need time to put 'fake AL fleet' in place.

Remember - like in 'Serpent Beneath' it could have been a clone with Primarch blood. In this case - he was simply created from the Empras genetech and real Alpharius genome (which I think he provided to create an Alpha clone).

 

The death knelt Omegon felt is an echo from the pendant (that pendant so silently mentioned after alpha clone awakening).

 

So, it's 90 % that it's all was a threefold test  - to test genetech and cloning; to test Terra defences - and actually prepare them for Horus; to thin the ranks of Hydra and operatives net, while also verifying all the codes and ciphers for the future. All in all - 'Praetorian of Dorn' is one epic AL victory. 

 

Plus remember - that in all that time Alpharius has taken part in 'Serpent Beneath' from Mcneil in absolutely different corner of the Galaxy, thought with Magnus, striked at Paramar again and was on Mars.

 

And MAINLY - his fleet was crippled at Alaxxes ('Alpha') especially. It could not have been 'Alpha' at Interstellar gulf before Sol - cause it was not 'so' damaged.

 

That's a compelling theory, but surely...

 

 

 

Omegon could innately distinguish between a clone death pang and the genuine thing?

 

I think such a double twist would really rob the dramatic impact from French's story

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I think ADB cleared up any ambiguity.

[Arkangilos]

See, the way i figure it, perhaps it's best that Alpharius does in fact die. The Alpha Legion is the many-headed Hydra, the Serpent with a Thousand Different Faces, but the entire fact that they had a Primarch present at all leading them works against that idea. With Alpharius dead, this frees them (not entirely, mind, since Omegon's still in the picture) to splinter into the thousand cells with a thousand different motives that they eventually become in the 41st millennium. This is the turning point, where they really begin their evolution into their particular brand of Chaos Space Marine. Perhaps it is a bit premature, since previously we had an "established" death for Alpharius fighting Roboute, but I do like the idea of it actually happening during the Heresy itself, for two reasons. Firstly, the way John French wrote it is incredible, and secondly, it proves that we can't be certain of anything that's going to happen during the Heresy. If another primarch can die, then it feels like (even if it's not strictly true) that nobody's safe again.

It may be, as some people said, that he didn't in fact die and that it was simply another double (of a more advanced sort in this case,) as the Alpha Legion is wont to do, and at least for me, that would be perfectly alright, being perfectly in character for the XX Legion. We might never really know the answer. But either way, even if this story has little impact on the overall narrative, it's still fascinating and beautifully written too.

A sidenote, also, though it may have held true for the old background, too: All throughout the Heresy and 40k, the Alpha Legion's mantra is: "I am Alpharius." If Alpharius is, indeed, dead, then that puts a entirely different spin on the phrase, changing the subtext, ever so slightly. Before Alpharius' death, it may have merely been a simple way of confirming the anonymity of the Ghost Legionnaires, a metaphorical device, but afterwards perhaps the Alpha Legion started meaning it in a more literal way: that Alpharius exists only in them anymore, and they carry on his works.

But that's just my opinion. I'm probably talking out my ass anyway.

But don't forget, Omegon still exists, and to the legion and the Imperium, he is Alpharius. So imagine the shock on Dorn's face whenever Alpharius shows back up after Dorn had already killed him, lol.

[helterskelter]

See, the way i figure it, perhaps it's best that Alpharius does in fact die. The Alpha Legion is the many-headed Hydra, the Serpent with a Thousand Different Faces, but the entire fact that they had a Primarch present at all leading them works against that idea. With Alpharius dead, this frees them (not entirely, mind, since Omegon's still in the picture) to splinter into the thousand cells with a thousand different motives that they eventually become in the 41st millennium. This is the turning point, where they really begin their evolution into their particular brand of Chaos Space Marine. Perhaps it is a bit premature, since previously we had an "established" death for Alpharius fighting Roboute, but I do like the idea of it actually happening during the Heresy itself, for two reasons. Firstly, the way John French wrote it is incredible, and secondly, it proves that we can't be certain of anything that's going to happen during the Heresy. If another primarch can die, then it feels like (even if it's not strictly true) that nobody's safe again.

It may be, as some people said, that he didn't in fact die and that it was simply another double (of a more advanced sort in this case,) as the Alpha Legion is wont to do, and at least for me, that would be perfectly alright, being perfectly in character for the XX Legion. We might never really know the answer. But either way, even if this story has little impact on the overall narrative, it's still fascinating and beautifully written too.

A sidenote, also, though it may have held true for the old background, too: All throughout the Heresy and 40k, the Alpha Legion's mantra is: "I am Alpharius." If Alpharius is, indeed, dead, then that puts a entirely different spin on the phrase, changing the subtext, ever so slightly. Before Alpharius' death, it may have merely been a simple way of confirming the anonymity of the Ghost Legionnaires, a metaphorical device, but afterwards perhaps the Alpha Legion started meaning it in a more literal way: that Alpharius exists only in them anymore, and they carry on his works.

But that's just my opinion. I'm probably talking out my ass anyway.

But don't forget, Omegon still exists, and to the legion and the Imperium, he is Alpharius. So imagine the shock on Dorn's face whenever Alpharius shows back up after Dorn had already killed him, lol.

Now you've put it like that I'd hazard a guess they're going to set it up as such

[Augustus]

 

OK  - about the last chapters and one major event:

 

 

  Dorn did not kill Alpharius.  

 

 

 

I bet he did.

 

 

 

-An- Alpharius? Maybe? :D

[mc warhammer]

See, the way i figure it, perhaps it's best that Alpharius does in fact die. The Alpha Legion is the many-headed Hydra, the Serpent with a Thousand Different Faces, but the entire fact that they had a Primarch present at all leading them works against that idea. With Alpharius dead, this frees them (not entirely, mind, since Omegon's still in the picture) to splinter into the thousand cells with a thousand different motives that they eventually become in the 41st millennium. This is the turning point, where they really begin their evolution into their particular brand of Chaos Space Marine. Perhaps it is a bit premature, since previously we had an "established" death for Alpharius fighting Roboute, but I do like the idea of it actually happening during the Heresy itself, for two reasons. Firstly, the way John French wrote it is incredible, and secondly, it proves that we can't be certain of anything that's going to happen during the Heresy. If another primarch can die, then it feels like (even if it's not strictly true) that nobody's safe again.

It may be, as some people said, that he didn't in fact die and that it was simply another double (of a more advanced sort in this case,) as the Alpha Legion is wont to do, and at least for me, that would be perfectly alright, being perfectly in character for the XX Legion. We might never really know the answer. But either way, even if this story has little impact on the overall narrative, it's still fascinating and beautifully written too.

A sidenote, also, though it may have held true for the old background, too: All throughout the Heresy and 40k, the Alpha Legion's mantra is: "I am Alpharius." If Alpharius is, indeed, dead, then that puts a entirely different spin on the phrase, changing the subtext, ever so slightly. Before Alpharius' death, it may have merely been a simple way of confirming the anonymity of the Ghost Legionnaires, a metaphorical device, but afterwards perhaps the Alpha Legion started meaning it in a more literal way: that Alpharius exists only in them anymore, and they carry on his works.

But that's just my opinion. I'm probably talking out my ass anyway.

for the record, i don't disagree with anything you've said...i just...agreed differently? i'll try to explain.

alpharius does have to die, and i think that was the overall expectation amongst 90% of fans. and while it might have been written beautifully (i'm yet to read it) i feel like it was premature. maybe not in the context of the heresy timeline itself but in as far as the alpha legion narrative went.

when we were given the reveal that alpharius is actually a pair of twin primarchs in LEGION, i was under the impression that GW/BL/Abnett had created twins for a narrative reason. a reason that could not be explored with a single primarch and could only be told through some sort of duality. LEGION set that up nicely. where could this go?

when that reason seemed to be that one twin was operating without the other's approval, i wasn't overly impressed, but it was a start. here was something that could not be explored with any other legion; as a concept it was alpha legion and alpha legion only. where could this go?

nowhere really, it seems.

i understand the death plays into the whole "cut off one head, another takes its place" philosophy but i really feel like more could have been done with the twins first in order to earn that death, to earn that twist and that finality of losing one head. imo, the questions posed by LEGION and SERPENT BENEATH were barely explored, let alone answered before we lost that status quo.

and i think BL have been very clever here by delivering what seems to be a "big move", when really, it was a pretty safe sacrifice. kill one alpha primarch, and you still have another to continue the heresy and fight on in the harrowing as per the lore. it was really the safest primarch kill of the lot. personally, i don't suddenly feel like "anything can happen".

so in the context i describe; looking at the story reason for the twin's conception, and what was achieved through their co-joint existence, i come up with very little. basically, the only real impact of having twin primarchs (beyond allegorical) was to kill one and replace him with the other. which just seems...anti-climatic.

you could achieve the same narrative effect by keeping alpharius a singleton (yep, looked that one up) with astarte-as-primarch stand-ins dying instead.

[Loesh]

 

OK  - about the last chapters and one major event:

 

 

  Dorn did not kill Alpharius.  

 

 

 

I bet he did.

 

 

 

I think, if they do things right, we'll never know at all.

 

I prefer to believe that he had died, because I think too many people live through the Horus Heresy as is. But I love that sense of mystique we've started to get from the HH series as it starts to draw closer to the end, while some things are laid out in plain and clear cut terms many are not as well. When the Horus Heresy ends we should have answers, but even more questions too, questions to follow us into the scouring and beyond.

 

When the curtains close there should be things that the Astartes, the traitors, the Primarchs, the Emperor, and even us the reader do not know and will never know even as the Imperium rages against the dying of the light. 

[Praetor of Calth]

Anyone think that;

 

 

We might actually get it confirmed that they were triplets, not just twins?

 

With Silonius being revealed as a primarch. Allowing him to die at Eskrador, and Omegon to become Janus?

 

We've already had it established that the twins kept secrets from one another. What if Alpharius kept Silonius a secret from Omegon because Omegon grew up on Terra rather than with Alphie himself?

 

Alpharius is definitely dead though, I've seen Aaron and Laurie confirm that in writing.

 

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Know we know who the sigma on the alpha skull from book 3 was.

[mc warhammer]

Anyone think that;

 

 

We might actually get it confirmed that they were triplets, not just twins?

 

With Silonius being revealed as a primarch. Allowing him to die at Eskrador, and Omegon to become Janus?

 

We've already had it established that the twins kept secrets from one another. What if Alpharius kept Silonius a secret from Omegon because Omegon grew up on Terra rather than with Alphie himself?

 

Alpharius is definitely dead though, I've seen Aaron and Laurie confirm that in writing.

 

 

 

 

 

i think the word "alone" was used for omegon partly to dispel this notion. words like "loss" could have been used but "alone" suggests that omegon is just that. alone.

 

[Kelborn]

Oh that would be a really cool theory. O.O

 

But I agree on mc Warhammer:

"Always two there were. No more, no less."

(slightly changed that quote)

[Emperor's Furor]

What if...

 

 

Omegon was a loyalist and he was working towards extracting himself from the traitors by the events in serpent beneath etc, but now that Alpharius is actually dead and the loyalists know he's dead (Omegon thinks they all know he doesn't know Dorn is keeping it a secret) He's now having to be the reluctant face of a traitor legion and now struggles to decide what to do.

 

[b1soul]

I'm reading from the start. A few of my honest thoughts....

 

 

 

1. John French is a good writer. His prose is eloquent and engaging

 

 

However...

 

2. Archamus is a boring character...and not particularly bright or impressive in any area

 

When he ordered the unexplainably unresponsive vessel to be fired upon, the thought of a trap never even crossed his mind...makes him seem to be a bit of a dullard

 

3. A lot of Alpha Legion shenanigans for a supposedly Fists-centric book...gets a bit annoying if you're not really an AL fan

 

[Sete]

Completely agree with you B1

[Kilofix]

Someone remind me, nobody knows about Omegon as Omegon at this point right?

[no I'm alpharius]

What if...

 

 

Omegon was a loyalist and he was working towards extracting himself from the traitors by the events in serpent beneath etc, but now that Alpharius is actually dead and the loyalists know he's dead (Omegon thinks they all know he doesn't know Dorn is keeping it a secret) He's now having to be the reluctant face of a traitor legion and now struggles to decide what to do.

 

 

I think that is implied in the epilogue

[Emperor's Furor]

 

What if...

 

 

Omegon was a loyalist and he was working towards extracting himself from the traitors by the events in serpent beneath etc, but now that Alpharius is actually dead and the loyalists know he's dead (Omegon thinks they all know he doesn't know Dorn is keeping it a secret) He's now having to be the reluctant face of a traitor legion and now struggles to decide what to do.

 

 

 

I think that is implied in the epilogue

 

 

 

Yeah but I mean how is he going to take it forward tho now, is he going to just accept it and tow the line or will he break off from the traitors and help the loyalists and be a renegade from both of them

 

[Arkangilos]

he has to side with the traitors. He dies after the Heresy. See, I thought it was going to play into the whole, "he was killed, yet the legion doesn't seem to even be phased" thing from the old IA article, basically saying that even though Alpharius died, Omegon was alive, the loyalists didn't know about him, so Alpharius was still "leading" the legion in 40k. However, they killed Alpharious before the time when Guilliman did, which means Omegon has to be the one killed by Guilliman, but that means that we know for a fact that there is no Alpharius running around in 40k, which we didn't know before... Unless Guilliman killed him because he thought he was a traitor, but he really wasn't?

[b1soul]

 

he has to side with the traitors. He dies after the Heresy. See, I thought it was going to play into the whole, "he was killed, yet the legion doesn't seem to even be phased" thing from the old IA article, basically saying that even though Alpharius died, Omegon was alive, the loyalists didn't know about him, so Alpharius was still "leading" the legion in 40k. However, they killed Alpharious before the time when Guilliman did, which means Omegon has to be the one killed by Guilliman, but that means that we know for a fact that there is no Alpharius running around in 40k, which we didn't know before... Unless Guilliman killed him because he thought he was a traitor, but he really wasn't?

 

Guilliman may or may not have killed a primarch at Eskrador

[no I'm alpharius]

Isn't the 'twist' on Eskrador that the UM have no records of it? 

 

 

 

 

See, I thought it was going to play into the whole, "he was killed, yet the legion doesn't seem to even be phased" thing from the old IA article, basically saying that even though Alpharius died, Omegon was alive, the loyalists didn't know about him, so Alpharius was still "leading" the legion in 40k.

That's roughly what I thought as well.

 

Yeah but I mean how is he going to take it forward tho now, is he going to just accept it and tow the line or will he break off from the traitors and help the loyalists and be a renegade from both of them

 

Anyway

 

There's a key line in there, trying to find it - "And he realised that the words he was about to say would trap him for the rest of existence, the jest turned into mocking truth."
 

 

 

Anyway, there was a previous question upthread about which other primarchs knew about the twins - I've seen nothing that suggests any of them knew. Angron? Is there a quote or owt?

[hopkins]

As always with these things, unless we witness it, we cannot trust hearsay, a historical report or an unverified account

[no I'm alpharius]

I'll be honest, I've been struggling on and off with the HH books recently. There was a run of anthologies and weaker books (from the wikipedia link,   think books 30 to 33) and my e-reader went south, so I didn't get on to Pharos at the time. 

 

However, Path of Heaven and this have been quite wonderful, and also starting to see the pieces falling into place. 

 

Oh, missed Angels of Caliban as well. 

[helterskelter]

The only thing you're missing with angels of caliban is the dreadwing doing their best John Cleese impression when he plays death and the salmon mousse killing everyone

[Kelborn]

I could imagine

 

 

 

Omegon trying to keep the AL following their greater goal. But the more and longer they are fighting at the side of the traitors, the more they get corrupted. Chaos is good in influencing and manipulating. Therefore, I could see the Legionnaires fall to the powers of the warp, becoming the AL we know and love today.

 

Realizing that he cannot held control over them, as there are way too many cells spread across the universe, he either abandoned the Cabals plan and returns to the Imperium by faking his death against Guiliman OR he takes those loyal to him, let them found a chapter to bolster the Imperium's ranks *cough* maybe my Phantom Blades? *cough*  no seriously one we haven't thought of priory (why do the Soul Drinkers pop up in my mind?) and joining the Malcador. Either way, he could still join the Grey Knights, acting as their first Grand Master of an army capable to battle chaos itself.

 

Would be cool to have one Primarch who was loyal the whole time, trying to do the right things with his Legion, realizing that it is futile and joining the Imperium again. And no one would have a clue about it. Besides Malcador. And Janus naturally. And the Emperor of course.

 

*edit*

Just realized that Eskrandor was after Terra. Well, he could abandon his Legion either way, saying: "You there! Yes, you! I need you to pretend to be me. Yeah, you will be in charge of the entire Legion. Cool, hm? Me? Oh, don't worry, I'll come back soon enough. Have some measures to solve. Thanks, pal. See you!"

 

 

[drooling blood]

Maybe they are all Apharius. His mind has been super imposed under all of them. But these days no one knows the codes to bring him to the surface.

Archamus was a bit dull, But hes a Fist, So that should be expected.

 

Nice little tidbit for a possible reason for the larger legions. VII, XIII and XVII

I didnt think the Fists were ever really large though. Maybe they just kept dying all the time.