Guest Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 he has to side with the traitors. He dies after the Heresy. See, I thought it was going to play into the whole, "he was killed, yet the legion doesn't seem to even be phased" thing from the old IA article, basically saying that even though Alpharius died, Omegon was alive, the loyalists didn't know about him, so Alpharius was still "leading" the legion in 40k. However, they killed Alpharious before the time when Guilliman did, which means Omegon has to be the one killed by Guilliman, but that means that we know for a fact that there is no Alpharius running around in 40k, which we didn't know before... Unless Guilliman killed him because he thought he was a traitor, but he really wasn't? Well as much as some Ultramarines celebrate the loss of "Alpharius" at that battle, its always a mark of contention Guilliman himself was unsure it was him I am beginning to believe he didnt as he was already dead. If Omegon = Janus then the AL are leaderless from the POV of a Primarch. The loss of a Primarch will effect the marines present. These were very charismatic beings and I am sure to his own marines Alpharius or Omegon were the same. Hell their very presence was pretty noticeable with the marines around them. I really want to read this but AL :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4478944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 It was never in question whether it had been Alpharius who was killed in the account of the Battle for Eskrador. Rather, the entire battle is questioned as having played out as described in that article. The account is based on the records of supposedly an Ultramarines officer that had been discovered, not from the Ultramarines Chapters' own records, and the Chapter is noted as having questioned the validity of that account. If the battle happened as claimed by that account, then Guilliman killed Alpharius that day, no question about it. But there are several inconsistencies and dubious claims in that account, so it is very likely that nothing clamed in it ever actually happened. Overall it makes more sense for Alpharius to be killed by Dorn. The Alpha Legion and Imperial Fists had been set up as rivals in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, but this was later abandoned, probably in favour of the IF/IW rivalry. The Alpha Legion were pitted against the Ultramarines instead, and indeed much of the descriptions in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article reads like they were meant to fight the Imperial Fists, with the Ultramarines now being crammed in that position. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4478980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 It was never in question whether it had been Alpharius who was killed in the account of the Battle for Eskrador. Rather, the entire battle is questioned as having played out as described in that article. The account is based on the records of supposedly an Ultramarines officer that had been discovered, not from the Ultramarines Chapters' own records, and the Chapter is noted as having questioned the validity of that account. If the battle happened as claimed by that account, then Guilliman killed Alpharius that day, no question about it. But there are several inconsistencies and dubious claims in that account, so it is very likely that nothing clamed in it ever actually happened. Overall it makes more sense for Alpharius to be killed by Dorn. The Alpha Legion and Imperial Fists had been set up as rivals in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, but this was later abandoned, probably in favour of the IF/IW rivalry. The Alpha Legion were pitted against the Ultramarines instead, and indeed much of the descriptions in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article reads like they were meant to fight the Imperial Fists, with the Ultramarines now being crammed in that position. If I agree with you will the world end? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4478989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 It was never in question whether it had been Alpharius who was killed in the account of the Battle for Eskrador. Rather, the entire battle is questioned as having played out as described in that article. The account is based on the records of supposedly an Ultramarines officer that had been discovered, not from the Ultramarines Chapters' own records, and the Chapter is noted as having questioned the validity of that account. If the battle happened as claimed by that account, then Guilliman killed Alpharius that day, no question about it. But there are several inconsistencies and dubious claims in that account, so it is very likely that nothing clamed in it ever actually happened. Overall it makes more sense for Alpharius to be killed by Dorn. The Alpha Legion and Imperial Fists had been set up as rivals in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, but this was later abandoned, probably in favour of the IF/IW rivalry. The Alpha Legion were pitted against the Ultramarines instead, and indeed much of the descriptions in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article reads like they were meant to fight the Imperial Fists, with the Ultramarines now being crammed in that position. Cheers - nice bit of history. Just looked back at Slaves to Darkness - a very different portrayal there! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 My mistake - Night Lords are Khornate in Slaves to Darkness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAlephNull Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Just some thoughts on what this means for the first Black Crusade. I wonder if this gives any portents to Dorn's death after the heresy? Imagine Dorn's confusion and horror to seeing Alpharius (Omegon) alive all those years later. Even more delicious, imagine a sputtering, monologue'ing Dorn as a silent, retributive Omegon comes at him.Also note that the Sword of Sacrilege where Dorn was killed was a Despoiler Class Battleship. Arkos's Anarchy's Heart was as well.This is pure conjecture from a AL fan still in shock who keeps re-listening to the audio for hints that the Alpharius that Dorn killed is not the original... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
drooling blood Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Alpharius' hands getting chopped off. Did seem like a bit of a future to come moment. I think by now. We should be long past spoiler hiding, but whatever. Im not a sneaky gitpharius. Ork Boobs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorgar Aurelian Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Just some thoughts on what this means for the first Black Crusade. I wonder if this gives any portents to Dorn's death after the heresy? Imagine Dorn's confusion and horror to seeing Alpharius (Omegon) alive all those years later. Even more delicious, imagine a sputtering, monologue'ing Dorn as a silent, retributive Omegon comes at him. Also note that the Sword of Sacrilege where Dorn was killed was a Despoiler Class Battleship. Arkos's Anarchy's Heart was as well. This is pure conjecture from a AL fan still in shock who keeps re-listening to the audio for hints that the Alpharius that Dorn killed is not the original... Would be excellent. Alpha legionaries bringing down Dorn. All the while Omegon and Dorn eyes locked while he is being dismembered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
drooling blood Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Just some thoughts on what this means for the first Black Crusade. I wonder if this gives any portents to Dorn's death after the heresy? Imagine Dorn's confusion and horror to seeing Alpharius (Omegon) alive all those years later. Even more delicious, imagine a sputtering, monologue'ing Dorn as a silent, retributive Omegon comes at him. Also note that the Sword of Sacrilege where Dorn was killed was a Despoiler Class Battleship. Arkos's Anarchy's Heart was as well. This is pure conjecture from a AL fan still in shock who keeps re-listening to the audio for hints that the Alpharius that Dorn killed is not the original... Would be excellent. Alpha legionaries bringing down Dorn. All the while Omegon and Dorn eyes locked while he is being dismembered. Dorn might like that. Seeming as thats pretty much what his marines go through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor of Calth Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Fellas, for those of you discussing Dorn's future fate. In the Beast Arises series; Vulkan compliments the Sons of Dorn on their fighting prowess and tells them he will tell Dorn himself. This takes place after Dorn's dissapearence. Dorn isn't dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
drooling blood Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Depends where Vulkans mind is at that point. Vulkan has many a case of ze alzheimers in that book. Chapters? He only just remembers that happening, or at least pretends to. He also mentions the SOS, who have passed into legend by then. He has a lot of what happened, whos there moments. Not that I dont think Dorn wont step out of the webway or khaos portal with his chain sword grafted to his wrist....... Yet. But your not seeing the circles GW like pulling. Found only Dorns Fist, (not the Ultramarine one) Dorn hacked off Alfs fists. Dont think Dorn would care if alf came back. Hed raise a bushy ol eyebrow, hrrummp, and hit it with his chain sword again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Please make use of the spoiler tags where appropriate. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Just some thoughts on what this means for the first Black Crusade. I wonder if this gives any portents to Dorn's death after the heresy? Imagine Dorn's confusion and horror to seeing Alpharius (Omegon) alive all those years later. Even more delicious, imagine a sputtering, monologue'ing Dorn as a silent, retributive Omegon comes at him. Also note that the Sword of Sacrilege where Dorn was killed was a Despoiler Class Battleship. Arkos's Anarchy's Heart was as well. This is pure conjecture from a AL fan still in shock who keeps re-listening to the audio for hints that the Alpharius that Dorn killed is not the original... Would be excellent. Alpha legionaries bringing down Dorn. All the while Omegon and Dorn eyes locked while he is being dismembered. Oh yeah lets add more rubbish to the Imperial Fists and Dorn, think there's been quite enough already with the Horus series and the Beast Arises Fellas, for those of you discussing Dorn's future fate. In the Beast Arises series; Vulkan compliments the Sons of Dorn on their fighting prowess and tells them he will tell Dorn himself. This takes place after Dorn's dissapearence. Dorn isn't dead. Which book is this in exactly? There's so many in that series, I don't want to read them all, especially after some have been spoilt for me already Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago? Though, worth noting, it's not in the First Black Crusade as mentioned above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Oh, yeah, that's true. >.< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago? Said nothing about chaos marines, talked about adding Omegon to the picture and have him gloating over Dorn. Suddenly Dorn gets a great piece of Lore but then you want to diminish it by having Omegon getting equal, can't he just have his moment for once? I mean Dorn never gets to come back at Perturabo for legging it from the Iron Cage. Fed up of Fists being punching bags and never getting any glory and if they do its because they've lost half or all of their forces defending something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 I liked the way that Dorn and Alpharius basically shafted themselves. Dorn was such a straight guy that he'd rather kill Alpharius than listen to what he had to say (from a more noble pov - not victory at any cost) and Alpharius tried to be too clever; planned with Omegon to betray the Imperium to not betray galaxy, but not quite, then did some clever cross purposes thing with Omegon; also killed the Cabal representative; then got himself killed thinking he could persuade Dorn to listen to his (presumably) crazy plan. Leaving Omegon pretty much screwed as to whatever plan A was as he's stuck with a legion that doesn't have clue what plan A is . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAlephNull Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago? Though, worth noting, it's not in the First Black Crusade as mentioned above. That's what I get for reading a wiki. Forgive me, ADB, I have err'ed. I'm still in mourning over the loss of my primarch. I'm not thinking straight... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I liked the way that Dorn and Alpharius basically shafted themselves. Dorn was such a straight guy that he'd rather kill Alpharius than listen to what he had to say (from a more noble pov - not victory at any cost) and Alpharius tried to be too clever; planned with Omegon to betray the Imperium to not betray galaxy, but not quite, then did some clever cross purposes thing with Omegon; also killed the Cabal representative; then got himself killed thinking he could persuade Dorn to listen to his (presumably) crazy plan. Leaving Omegon pretty much screwed as to whatever plan A was as he's stuck with a legion that doesn't have clue what plan A is . when you put it like that, how could it have gone wrong? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I feel like someone as calculating and logical as Alpharius would not waste too many words with a brother hell-bent on killing him I'm no AL fan...but I'm not sure how I feel about Alp Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4479892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago? Is this a joke or are you actually posting massive spoilers in a non-spoiler thread? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4480060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Please respect the nature of discussing something new or upcoming and continue with the use of spoiler tags once established. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4480079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I feel like someone as calculating and logical as Alpharius would not waste too many words with a brother hell-bent on killing him I'm no AL fan...but I'm not sure how I feel about Alp i thought that too. al and their primarchs have been established as ridiculously practical, if in a sneaky way. they were more the mysterious over grandstanding types. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4480175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago? Is this a joke or are you actually posting massive spoilers in a non-spoiler thread? Dude part of the old lore has Dorn disappear during one of the black crusades on a chaos Ship with only his severed hand being found by his sons it's part of the imperial fists fluff it it's hardly a spoiler as much as Khan, Russ and Corax all disappearing around the same time claiming they will be back when the time is right Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324545-praetorian-of-dorn/page/8/#findComment-4480188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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