Praetorian of Dorn

[Rob P]

 

 

WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago?

 

 

Is this a joke or are you actually posting massive spoilers in a non-spoiler thread?

 

 

This is not a spoiler in the sense that it's old lore. However, I can see that the way it was said in the course of the thread could be suggestive of something that may or may not have happened in the original topic novel. Don't worry, it doesn't tell you anything about the content of this book.

 

One of the things that miffs me about this forum is the handling of spoilers. Basically don't read the thread if you don't want to the book to be spoiled because it seems some people have a really high threshold as to what they consider to be a spoiler and spoilers for other books can be dotted around without warning of what it being spoiled.

 

On topic my 3 star review of this book (no plot spoilers):

 

 

 

I started this book on the evening of release and having read some of the authors other Heresy stories I was filled with positive anticipation. John French has written some of my favorite Heresy stories including Warmaster, The Last Remembrancer and (my favorite Heresy short) Riven.

 

The plot of the story is well hidden from the reader, but the blurb and the cover give a few hints and what is to come. The Imperial Fists will face the first of the Warmaster’s assaults on the Sol System and the Alpha Legion will have a role to play. Rogal Dorn will feature and possibly (is that him on the cover?) Alpharius.

 

To me, the plot was a little too straightforward for the protagonists. It was a slightly more complicated version of the story of the detective that is one clue behind the killer. I felt this affected the agency of the protagonist and cohort. They were effectively compelled to follow the mystery through the Sol System. I just wanted there to be something more. Whilst it can also easily be said for many of the other novels in this [currently] 39 book series, a problem for me is that I didn’t feel that the book told a story that was interesting enough on its own without the wider backdrop.

 

I really liked the themes in the book. Basically, the premise sets up one ideology against an opposing ideology. Both have flaws. Some flaws are move obvious and others subtle. Are the players prepared to adopt the ideology of the other to achieve their aim? If so, is this a wise decision or is it built on hubris? (Clearly everything in the Heresy is built on hubris). Does a cloak of secrecy help or hinder your objective? Do the ends justify the means? These questions are all explored to some extent.

 

The story primarily plays out through the eyes of a unique Imperial Fist protagonist and a seemingly unique antagonist. There are also massive dashings of vignettes from the point of view of other characters. Each chapter is broken down into half a dozen or so sub chapters which really work well to keep the reader moving forward and forward. Towards the start of the book there are so many little threads that are equally interesting and that keep the reader engaged. Part of the allure of the early parts of the book is the desire to find out how the little threads will merge.

 

The book also includes a number flashbacks relating to the protagonist and antagonist.

 

Those relating to the protagonist primarily draw from certain points in his past to (perhaps) explain elements of his character and to foreshadow the plot. If the former was an intention of the author I didn’t feel it shined through very well – I couldn’t see how what we were told in some of the flashbacks (especially the first one) gave much away about the now protagonist. The plot foreshadowing worked a little too well perhaps because it alerted me to the ending – and I’m thick when it comes to foreshadowing. One of the protagonist flashbacks was far too long for what it was getting it. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it really disrupted the pace of the story.

 

The antagonist flashbacks work to unveil the mystery. Both the flashbacks and the plot device in respect of the flashbacks work really well to keep me interested and on my toes.

 

A massive amount of credit has to be given to the author for really fleshing out the Sol System. If there is one thing that shines above everything else it was the authors ability to create a sense of wonder. It’s quite easy to imagine the Sol System as the bastion of the Imperium where everyone loves the Emperor and everything he stands for. The author goes beyond showing that this just isn’t true (and, surely, it wouldn’t have been realistic), but he also shows a variety of different characters that have very distinct and clear motivations for doing what they do. One character, Andromeda-17, really shines through – both because of the premise of the character and how the character is presented.

 

I also really liked the prologue. It perfectly set in motion the events that were to come in the story and advanced the larger story arc. We are now in ‘The Gauntlet’ phase of the heresy. I also liked the epilogue which helped to clarify a key event in the story and which give the subtlest of hints as to where the story for one legion might go.

 

As the story progressed I started to enjoy it less. During the last fifth or so the way the story will play out becomes apparent. The pages of description (which Black Library appear to require) were written and my eyes glazed over. The interesting parts of the latter part of the book were over quickly and the expansive scenes didn’t grab my attention. I’m sure others would have got more from this part of the book but I just wanted the conclusion and all the events leading to the climax became delaying filler. There is a massive lore busting event in the latter part of the book, but it is nestled away. It’s shame because I think a few less pages of the other events and the end and more of this key event would have really helped to finish off the book.

 

Overall, I enjoyed the book, but felt a little let down in terms of the bland protagonist, the disjointed long flashback in the middle and the where the focus was towards the end of the story.

[Augustus]

All this fooling around with spoilers.

Anyway:

IF it was an Alpharius clone then maybe the Omegon character we see is also clone. Because they are one primarch and two bodies. If you

a primarch you don't do a halfway job. I guess..hmm.. I have trouble reconciling, as B1soul described, Alpharius chatting up a brother primarch hell-bent on killing him. Unless his goal was to die.

Yeah...spoilers

[Arkangilos]

 

 

WoT, how is Dorn dying by chaos marines rubbish? We've had strong suspicions that it has happened since the Index Astartes article happened a long time ago?

 

 

Is this a joke or are you actually posting massive spoilers in a non-spoiler thread?

Dude, that's stuff from the Index Astartes and codex article stuff. Saying that's a massive spoiler is like saying the Emperor is mortally wounded and Sanguinius dies is a spoiler. It's a well established thing that isn't in a novel.

 

Everyone that plays 40k should know that none of the loyalist Primarchs are around. It's stupid as hell that this is an issue.

 

@WoT,

Oh, yeah that makes sense then. I see where you are coming from.

 

I personally hope Dorn isn't really dead, since they didn't find his body

 

[hopkins]

Curze had a vision of Dorn's death when they first met

[mc warhammer]

Curze had a vision of Dorn's death when they first met

 

 

always a good ice breaker

[Kilofix]

Curze had a vision of Dorn's death when they first met

And Dorn fears that Curze may be right (in The Lightning Tower).

[helterskelter]

 

Curze had a vision of Dorn's death when they first met

And Dorn fears that Curze may be right (in The Lightning Tower).

Curze knows how everyone dies

Probably why he's a few short of the full set

[Mellow]

Just finished reading the book ... my spoiler thoughts:

 

 

I did like the book, moving the story along was nice! I'm not sure I enjoy the total "uber-skills" of the Alpha Legion though. They seem to be able to send in a group of 4 marines to a location and take out dozens of other Astartes without any problems. There was also the phrase "ceramite shards punching through flesh and bone" quite a lot. Which for me made the Power Armour seem a little too flimsy for my liking. It's meant to be so awesome at protecting the Marine that bullets from modern guns would just bounce off harmlessly ... I do get that this is the far future and guns are very powerful, but it felt like it wasn't much better than flak armour at some points in the book.

 

I also felt that this was meant to be about the Fists when there were times when it felt like "Alpha Legion book 2". I get that there needed to be a "badguy" to fight but much of the plot was based around AL and not Fists.

 

That said, I did like the hint that the reason why the Ultramarine and Word Bearers were larger legions was because they were directly involved in the raids on Luna and could therefore benefit from "the spoils" of the gene labs based there. This for me puts to bed the previous assumption that those legions absorbed the 2 unknown legions numbers.

 

I was also curious to know more about the psyker ... the "crimson walker" or whatever he was. Where are they from?

... and the "luna witch" ... what was she exactly?

 

... and my last point (sorry to ramble on)

Alpharius getting a sword in the face. I had to re-read that section to realise what was going on. I'm surprised he got killed, but I believe that would make him the "only" traitor primarch to be killed except Horus? Right? So I don't have a problem with it particularly. I do believe it was real due to Omegon's feelings of being alone.

 

Was I right in understanding that firstly Dorn chopped his hands off and then whilst there was some weird warp stuff going on, smashed his skull in? (with a loud bang). I'm under the impression that when Primarchs get killed there is a release of warp energy. It happened with Ferrus so it must be a pattern with these warp-infested beings we know as Primarchs. I didn't get the impression that he was being teleported away. I note that Alpharius was speaking words after he lost his arms. My question is, were those words some kind of Chaotic incantation to teleport away or was he whispering something to his brother Dorn that only Dorn would hear?

 

[TheAlephNull]

 

As conflicted as I am about Alpharius's death...

 

 

I have to say that John French has truly grafted a masterpiece here. After I listened to the audio, I ordered the hard back.  I have never doubled up on a purchase before but I definitely want a copy of this. 

 

 

I just find it interesting that there is scorn for Alpha Legion fans desiring to parse through every detail in the book for a clue that it was not the real Alpharius. Having re-listened multiple times I'm forced to conclude that it was, but it seems fully in legion character and the previous lore to want to believe otherwise.

 

 

One of the great considerations of history is what could have been. French has done a remarkable job demonstrating how a few snap decisions and chance occurrences will influence the next 10,000 years.

[betrayer41]

As conflicted as I am about Alpharius's death...

I have to say that John French has truly grafted a masterpiece here. After I listened to the audio, I ordered the hard back. I have never doubled up on a purchase before but I definitely want a copy of this.

I just find it interesting that there is scorn for Alpha Legion fans desiring to parse through every detail in the book for a clue that it was not the real Alpharius. Having re-listened multiple times I'm forced to conclude that it was, but it seems fully in legion character and the previous lore to want to believe otherwise.

One of the great considerations of history is what could have been. French has done a remarkable job demonstrating how a few snap decisions and chance occurrences will influence the next 10,000 years.

its not him!!!! haha

[Lucifer216]

 

There seem to be some big parallels between Alpharius's death and Magnus's downfall. Both try to deliver a message in such a format that it is destined to fall on deaf ears and gets them killed/maimed. Also, the choice of format is strongly determined by pride in their (questionable to others) methods.

 

It seemed pretty fool-hardy to try to convince someone that you're on their side while fighting them and setting things up so that your sons are butchering each other, especially when your MO means that no-one trusts you.

 

Given the trust deficit, surely the more effective thing to do would be to attack the traitors at a point of vulnerability.

 

I wonder if we'll see Omegon (posing as Alpharius) making an attempt to shift things in the Emperor's favour on the Vengeful Spirit, perhaps by having Alpha Legion deactivate its void shields?

 

I think that the main character came across as a bit bland and wished the flashbacks had been more concise.

 

 

[Mellow]

It really is. It has to be. Otherwise it's only really the loyalist Primarchs that seem to be getting killed. Which doesn't seem very fair!

[Arkangilos]

 

It really is. It has to be. Otherwise it's only really the loyalist Primarchs that seem to be getting killed. Which doesn't seem very fair!

 

Well that's life for you.

[Sarevok]

I have read and enjoyed the book very much, but all good books, it left more questions than offered answers.

 

 

I was shocked after the death of Alpharius, then I thought it was one of those classic Alpha Legion moments, but then...

... then I remembered that the Primarch was fighting without his helmet on and that Dorn was very much capable to see though his brother's disguise in the throne room, all those years ago.

 

I think that Alpharius is dead for good, but the shock-wave of his death is indeed a narrative I very much look after to.

 

I wonder, from the established lore we know that Guilliman "killed" Alpharius in a later battle. Will this be an Alpha Legion plot or will be the traitors down by two more Primarchs by the end of the Horus Heresy series.

 

On the other hands rumors circulate about a probable Alpha Legion return on the loyalist side in M41...

 

As I have said, more questions than answers.

 

[mc warhammer]

I have read and enjoyed the book very much, but all good books, it left more questions than offered answers.

 

 

I was shocked after the death of Alpharius, then I thought it was one of those classic Alpha Legion moments, but then...

 

... then I remembered that the Primarch was fighting without his helmet on and that Dorn was very much capable to see though his brother's disguise in the throne room, all those years ago.

 

I think that Alpharius is dead for good, but the shock-wave of his death is indeed a narrative I very much look after to.

 

I wonder, from the established lore we know that Guilliman "killed" Alpharius in a later battle. Will this be an Alpha Legion plot or will be the traitors down by two more Primarchs by the end of the Horus Heresy series.

 

On the other hands rumors circulate about a probable Alpha Legion return on the loyalist side in M41...

 

As I have said, more questions than answers.

 

rumours based on...?

[Mellow]

 

I've always had the impression that Omegon was the "loyalist" of the two. However with Alpharius stating he could "give Dorn victory" it has created a small amount of doubt.

 

Unless of course they are both loyalist still but just playing as traitor to help the Cabals plan along

 

[Fire Golem]

 

I've always had the impression that Omegon was the "loyalist" of the two. However with Alpharius stating he could "give Dorn victory" it has created a small amount of doubt.

Unless of course they are both loyalist still but just playing as traitor to help the Cabals plan along

 

 

I always thought Omegon was the 'loyal' one too. But Alpharius definitely seemed to be trying to help Dorn so... Who knows? I kinda wish Omegon had died, I prefer Alpharius, not sure why. Might just be that I think Omegon is a stupid name.

 

[Tymell]

Just finished it today (twas a long, dull day at work, good chance to do so ) and overall I liked it plenty.

I enjoyed the characterisation of both the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists. It had a decent focus on a handful of central characters that were nicely developed and plenty of side-characters to flesh it out. It was nice to see something set firmly within the Sol System and I definitely got a real feel for the setup there and Dorn's defences.

It had more Alpha Legion than I expected (to the point where I'd say it's just as much an AL book as an IF one), and although I did at times find myself thinking they were a bit too successful, I also can't really say it wasn't justified: this -is- their kind of warfare, they -did- have plenty of time to set it up (longer than Dorn had to set up his defences really), some of what we saw -was- from an actual primarch, and in the end they -did- lose, and lost a primarch too! So while it can feel like the Alpha Legion constantly have the upper hand and are always getting away with everything, I don't think this was a case of bad writing, more just part of the story and the way it was looking at these two legions and their ways of war.

And yeah, dat ending. Definitely a highlight of the book, probably a highlight of the entire series. Dorn vs. Alpharius was a great clash, I loved how Dorn was utterly silent throughout, just totally refusing to give Alpharius anything at all, and ultimately triumphing, made all the more satisfying after the XXth have had their way for so much of the book. Massive respect to Mr. French (and BL) for having the guts to actually kill of a primarch. There aren't many opportunities for that to happen, and despite this being one of the only such chances, I must admit I didn't see it coming or really believe it. I was waiting for the reveal that he was actually alive, but no, it really does seem he's dead. Kudos

So yeah, I'd say it's definitely worth a read for Horus Heresy, Alpha Legion or Imperial Fists fans. Contender for a top 10 novel of the series for me, if not in then very nearly.

[DarKnight]

Humanity would've conquered the Galaxy easily if they trained up/augmented all the humans like Myzmadra and game them volkite weaponry. Sheesh! (I know the in universe reasons volkites are super rare)

[Mellow]

Isn't that what essentially happened with the DAoT where technology was more prevalent?

 

... and that turned out great didn't it, lol

[HeritorA]

 

In principle this should be a fairly spoiler free thread.

Whose principle? Yours?

 

Strange principles, lol.

[HeritorA]

OK - about the last chapters and one major event:

Dorn did not kill Alpharius.

I bet he did.

We don't have enough proof as always with AL.

So from now and till the end of time - it would be 2 groups of fans.

The one who thinks

Alpharius is dead for good

and the one who thinks that it was a charade and

that was clone, Silonius, some other captain woth blood drinking - and Alphy is living happily ever after till Eskrandor

So in some sense Laurie and John are trolled us for good

Archamus will be killed by Abaddon shortly after Sigismund, and before he poisons Polux dressed as a Xenos in Talon of Horus 2: Everybody M2C likes Dies.

Very good - proceed my brother. Hydra dominatus

[HeritorA]

OK - about the last chapters and one major event:

Dorn did not kill Alpharius.

I bet he did.

I dub thee Sir D-B, Slayer of Hope and Lord of the all the lands of Dreamcrushershireville. Long may you reign.

+ level 80 troll, WOW lover and the master of Lotara band of Riven Ohhh, wait where was Delvarus somewhere? I think Lotara shot him in the face - again. This time for good

[HeritorA]

Anyone think that;

We might actually get it confirmed that they were triplets, not just twins?

With Silonius being revealed as a primarch. Allowing him to die at Eskrador, and Omegon to become Janus?

We've already had it established that the twins kept secrets from one another. What if Alpharius kept Silonius a secret from Omegon because Omegon grew up on Terra rather than with Alphie himself?

Alpharius is definitely dead though, I've seen Aaron and Laurie confirm that in writing.

Yeap - but they are talented trolls

I'm reading from the start. A few of my honest thoughts....

1. John French is a good writer. His prose is eloquent and engaging

However...

2. Archamus is a boring character...and not particularly bright or impressive in any area

When he ordered the unexplainably unresponsive vessel to be fired upon, the thought of a trap never even crossed his mind...makes him seem to be a bit of a dullard

3. A lot of Alpha Legion shenanigans for a supposedly Fists-centric book...gets a bit annoying if you're not really an AL fan

Heretek! We are Legion!

he has to side with the traitors. He dies after the Heresy. See, I thought it was going to play into the whole, "he was killed, yet the legion doesn't seem to even be phased" thing from the old IA article, basically saying that even though Alpharius died, Omegon was alive, the loyalists didn't know about him, so Alpharius was still "leading" the legion in 40k. However, they killed Alpharious before the time when Guilliman did, which means Omegon has to be the one killed by Guilliman, but that means that we know for a fact that there is no Alpharius running around in 40k, which we didn't know before... Unless Guilliman killed him because he thought he was a traitor, but he really wasn't?

Guilliman may or may not have killed a primarch at Eskrador

He did - Alan Merret was definite on this

The only thing you're missing with angels of caliban is the dreadwing doing their best John Cleese impression when he plays death and the salmon mousse killing everyone

Exactly - nothing more. AoC does not give anything to the main story - whatever Unremembered Empire lovers could say

[Praetor of Calth]

We don't have enough proof as always with AL.

So from now and till the end of time - it would be 2 groups of fans.

The one who thinks

Alpharius is dead for good

and the one who thinks that it was a charade and

that was clone, Silonius, some other captain woth blood drinking - and Alphy is living happily ever after till Eskrandor

 

Here we go...

Come on man you have two people from the Black Library HH team outright saying Alpharius is dead dead. What more evidence do you need? Remember when Vulkan died, and we had hints that he wasn't dead dead? There aren't any of the sort for Alpharius.

 

 

There are no two camps. Only one.