REF EVENT - Timeline

[bluntblade]

And you know he wants that bauble.

[Kelborn]

Is it of importance that about two chapters of the Preds are not at the front line while Andezo deals with Nomus?

 

At phone and I didn't had the time to read everything.

[simison]

And you know he wants that bauble.

 

That's true. Kozja has never lacked ambition, and the Insurrection must only be aggravating that aspect of his personality. Actually, I guess that's the true clue as to who the southern commander is. Out of the available Primarchs, only Kozja and Raktra are actively vying for the role. Koschei might want to be on that front because its closer to Zbruch, and he doesn't want to assault Delos on the northern flank. The Jade General and Nomus are proficient but struggle with interpersonal skills. Morro might be the only other want fighting for the honor since he's still trying to prove his worth. 

 

Hm, I think Kozja would be the best pick, while Nomus and Morro are kept on the eastern front to counter Azus and Andezo. Nomus and Koschei are the most reluctant to fight directly against Alexandros. Raktra will obviously become frustrated with the failure, and the Blood Crusade becomes a bargaining chip and a chance for the spotlight. 

 

On the Loyalist side, given the paramount of defense and conserving strength, Alexandros will place Pionus in command with Yucahu supporting him. 

 

So, this is how the commanders line up:

 

Northern assault - Alexandros vs. Travier & Morro

Central assault - Niklaas vs. Icarion, K'awil, and Raktra

Southern assault - Pionus & Yucahu vs. Kozja & Koschei 

 

Eastern front - Nomus & Jade General vs. Andezo & Azus

 

Alright, after a bit more thought, Travier will not allow an anti-psyker Legion be joined with his for this assault. He will not risk his connection to Chaos. So, Jade is sent East with his Pariahs to counter Andezo, while Morro is happy to be where the real action is and more than happy to wreak havoc against Alexandros' home system. This is also a chance for Travier to continue guiding down Morro and the Drowned to Chaos. 

 

The one question remaining is: does Hectarion make it to the front in time? 

 

Last we checked, Hectarion had finished the Pacificus pacification campaign and was returning to Obscurus at 036-037.M31. That's at minimum 4 years or at maximum 6 years until Icarion's first push. Although Alexandros has warned him against attacking the Legion homeworlds, Hectarion's first target is the Han system. Since he's in the southern half of Pacificus, this will be a huge journey. Since the journey is equal to half the galaxy's size, we're already looking at 1.5-2 years in travel time. 

 

Now throw in the Chaos penalty, and now this journey just jumped to 4.5-6 years. 

 

Right there, it doesn't look like Hectarion will make it to be a part of the defense of Seg. Solar. A couple of months will be needed for the Crimson Lions to resupply and rearm before they head to the Han system. So, 4.75-6.25 years. 

 

Now, the Jade General ordered a mass exodus of the Han system to the Strela system. However, it's not completely abandoned as some WoP units refused to abandon their ancestral home, and there weren't enough ships to evacuate everyone and everything. Hectarion and the Crimson Lions unleash their rage and sack the Han system, wiping out every remaining Warrior. The sack only takes a few weeks to occur.

 

The next step involves some leeway. If the numbers are in Hectarion's favor, he and the Crimson Lions begin the trip to Mexicatii, eliminating the few seccessions between Mexicatii and Han. It is during this journey that Hectarion learns about the Seg. Solar invasion.

 

Personally, I prefer the scenario where the numbers don't favor Hectarion. This is how I picture it. The Crimson Lions and Hectarion are feeling momentarily satisfied, a couple of days after they've finished sacking the system. They've released some of their pent-up hatred with their Traitorous cousins and pent-up frustration with how hard the journey was. The Crimson Lions are now taking stock, while Hectarion is planning the invasion of Mexicatii. Then Hectarion's personal astropath receives a message. Seg. Solar is being invaded, and the Warmaster has been sending orders for the Crimson Lions to return to Solar, but the messages had been lost to the Warp until this one. To Hectarion's horror, he realizes that if he had followed the Warmaster's instructions and targeted the nearest rebellion as opposed to Han, he would be months if not years closer to the front. As Hectarion furiously orders the Crimson Lions to move out, the four gods of Chaos are laughing at him and his impotent rage. 

[Sigismund229]

Hmm. Working with the second scenario, Hectarion and the Lions will be extremely annoyed by the timethey reach Seg. Solar meaning they could swing one of two ways. Either they'll be utterly ashamed and therefore far more likely to follow orders in order to try and recover their honour, or they'll lose it and charge right at the Insurrectionists, preferably the Harbingers, and claim as many traitor heads as they can to make up for not being there, and recover their honour that way

[bluntblade]

Plus that can feed into a wiser Hec's decisions in the wake of the Blood Crusade.

[simison]

To be fair, in both scenarios, the Crimson Lions are too far out given Hectarion's decision to wipe out the Traitor Legion homeworlds against the Warmaster's orders. I just like it happening in the Han system because it emphasizes just how bad of an idea it was for Hectarion to choose his vengeance over military pragmatism. 

 

Furthermore, this is probably happening because Khorne is trying to break Hectarion and the Crimson Lions' collective will. The frustration, the hatred, the desire to kill. Khorne obviously sees the potential in Hectarion to be his champion even as he keeps one eye on Raktra. This might also be Khorne's vengeance against Alexandros for rejecting him beneath Terra at the start of the Insurrection.

 

But let's play out the scenario since it wasn't shot down. Let's also lock in the year and event. Icarion's first push happens in 041.M31. Hectarion is located in the Han system, the Eastern Primarchs are fighting these guerrilla battles in the East, and so on. 

 

So, since I've invoked Khorne, guess what happens next? 

 

Hectarion and the Crimson Lions are making full speed to the front lines. But this journey is even longer than they one they just finished: 2-2.5 years of decent travel. Chaos hates Loyalists, so now it's a 6-7.5 year journey, despite what Hectarion tries to do to move faster. Stable warp routes are blocked off with warp storms forcing detours. The warp seems to be trying to bash the Crimson Lion fleet. 

 

Meanwhile, the Loyalists are being pushed back. The Fire Keepers were able to take advantage of that year of build-up and constructed three lines of defenses for the Loyalists to hold. By this point, there are now Imperial Army regiments that armed for war against Astartes. Despite these additional advantages, it's only enough to delay, not stop, the Traitors. It takes two entire years of careful war of attrition, but Raktra is able to break the first defense line in the center campaign zone. This forces the remaining Loyalists to abandon the first defense zone, lest they are flanked by the Berserkers and Harbingers.

 

It is this defeat and his visions telling him that Hectarion will not arrive in time that leads to Alexandros issuing the Edict of Emancipation. Months pass as the Traitors begin the work of cracking the second defense zone, which is more fortified than the first. Kroot mercenaries are the first ones in the fray, deployed to the southern front where Koschei had nearly succeeded in destroying a key fortress world. Although the damage the mercs do is minimal, the effort is enough to give the Scions the necessary time to secure the breach the Godslayers were using. Soon, orange-furred Jokaeros are ambushing Traitor marines with their strange rings. Kinebrach arrive with Interex reinforcements to hammer the southern front. It is the third year into the invasion that Alexandros finishes the negotiations with Il-Kaithe and their allies. The Aeldari officially join the Insurrection as they use the Webway to launch devastating raids against the Traitor's rear lines.

 

Although many Imperial units and commanders are outraged by the Edict, they can't argue with the results. Where before the Traitors were on the verge of breaking the second line, now they were struggling to hold onto their gains as Loyalists and xenos launched counter-assaults. 

 

It is Travier who attempts to break the deadlock. Pulling back the Eagle Warriors, the Drowned and Morro launch a series of costly attacks against Warden positions to distract them from Travier's ploy. With his entire Legion assembled and rituals enacted to blind Alex's foresight, the Eagle Warriors fly above the galactic plane before dropping down directly onto the Delos system. 

 

As both a Legion homeworld and a part of the third defense zone, Travier attempts to force the Wardens to abandon the second defense zone, which will open the Loyalist flanks. Although enraged by this desolation of his home, the Warmaster leaves a strong enough force to hold the Drowned before rushing to his home with his own army. It is in the ruins of Salim, capital city of Delos, that the Warmaster and the Arch-Heretic battle for the fate of Seg. Solar. 

 

Although the Shield-Lord is deprived of his shield, Alexandros prevails, forcing the Eagle Warriors to make a hasty retreat to Traitor lines. This is the beginning of the end of Icarion's first invasion. Despite Morro's best efforts, the Aeldari are possessed by a fierce hatred of the Drowned and their master, leading them fight as one with the Wardens and their allies. Il-Kaithe goes far enough to release an Avatar of Khaine against the Primarch. Although Morro is superior, the Avatar is well supported by the Warden Legate left in charge of the defense by the Warmaster. Morro is gravely wounded and forced to flee the field. 

 

Travier returns to the Drowned just in time to see them end their offensive. A few days later, the Warmaster is once again at the front lines, leading to the Delians veterans. The returning Legionaries provide the necessary strength to launch a counter-offensive. With Alexandros leading the assault, the Eagle Warriors and Drowned break. The northern front shifts as Alexandros reclaims the first defense zone from the Traitors. 

 

Suddenly, it is now Icarion's flank that has been undone. The Traitor's fall back to their established positions before Icarion launched his invasion, now creating their own emplacements in case the Loyalists press the attack.

 

Unfortunately, the Loyalists are in no shape to do so. With both sides too weak to assault the other, Icarion's first invasion is over after four whole years of furious war. 

 

Does that sound like a realistic timeline? Should the sieges take longer or be shorter? 

[MikhalLeNoir]

Sounds Like a realistic timeline. One question: travier fights alexandros one in one?

[Sigismund229]

Being honest, 6-7.5 years for the Crimson Lions travel time sounds like a bit too long in my opinion

[MikhalLeNoir]

If the warp is against you? Be happy that you came out only 6 years later^^

[Sigismund229]

If the warp is against you? Be happy that you came out only 6 years later^^

Fair point

[simison]

Sounds Like a realistic timeline. One question: travier fights alexandros one in one?

 

Yes, they duel in Salim. Travier does not play fair.

 

Being honest, 6-7.5 years for the Crimson Lions travel time sounds like a bit too long in my opinion

 

I understand, but the distance between Han and Delos is huge, looking at Grifft's map. That said, I thought it'd have more impact if the Crimson Lions right after the invasion is over.

 

...actually, what are the odds that the Choas gods would torment the Crimson Lions for a third of the journey with terrible warp travel, only for the Warp to suddenly clear up? Cue the Crimson Lions arriving at Delos to meet with a very frustrated Alexandros. 

 

Or is that too much? The alternate scenario is that Hectarion receives word that he's failed to reach the battle in time. The message comes right as the Crimson Lions are near Kabyieb. So he lays waste to the Grave Stalker recruiting world. This too serves Chaos' purpose seeing as they loath Pariahs.

Edited September 2, 2017 by simison

[MikhalLeNoir]

Because Trsvier would not openly fight a superior fighter only if he is sure to win. We hat that Discussion During the blood crusade planning phase and AO108 was totally against Trsvier fighting HEC. He is to cunning for that. So what is the difference here?

[bluntblade]

As for the late stages, I figure Hec will have to gather what strength is left in his realm, find some way of getting through the Warp storms and then get past every bit of resistance placed in his way, to say nothing of resupplying as he goes.

 

Raktra and I have talked over the Blood Crusade, and for Raktra at least it's a matter of passing the Khornate buck to Hectarion. Travier should also see the Crimson Lions gone Khornate as a worthier prize than corrupting the Berserkers. One is an ally, their choice made. The other are a prize already marked by the War God and an enemy whose corruption would likely tip the entire conflict in the favour of Chaos.

[Sigismund229]

Alexandros is nowhere near as good of a fighter as Hec is. Of all the primarchs, I actually think he would be Travier's most even match as they're both pyskers and neither is a particularly good warrior. If you contrast that with the idea of Travier fighting Hec, who is the best one-on-one fighter on the loyalist side(at this stage. Of course, Gwal is equal and possibly superior skillwise but lacks the ferocity), then Alex vs Travier seems a much fairer match up

 

And actually, I was just thinking: wouldn't the gutuatri foresee the Lions getting stuck going to Mexicatii? And even with the Lions riding a post Han vengeance high, they'd still take the gutuatri seriously.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Sigismund229

[MikhalLeNoir]

Him. I always thought with the divinstion Combo that Alex is top Tier. Especislly with the Speer and bis New armor.

 

Sim stated that Trsvier player unfair. Maybe this is the difference.

 

And HeC would be a damn good price for khorne

[simison]

Because Trsvier would not openly fight a superior fighter only if he is sure to win. We hat that Discussion During the blood crusade planning phase and AO108 was totally against Trsvier fighting HEC. He is to cunning for that. So what is the difference here?

 

Chaos ritual. With his first blow, Travier places a hex on Alex's shield forcing him to drop it as it sends his telepathy into overdrive. While Alex is recovering, Travier stabs him with his spear, puncturing one of his hearts. So, Travier very nearly kills the Warmaster in the first few seconds of their fight, and it's only when Alexandros centers himself and focuses on his divination does he hold off Travier long enough to eventually swing the duel against Travier. 

 

EDIT: What's the Gutuatri?

Edited September 2, 2017 by simison

[Kelborn]

I can almost see a Hectarion Lives! scenario. ^^

[bluntblade]

I think that'd figure heavily in Travier's calculations. Hec in open battle is enormously dangerous; Alex is no slouch but I'd put Hec firmly in the upper tier of combatant Primarchs.

 

I refer you to the Emperor talking about the flaws in foresight. Icarion looks forward to 40K and sees alien hordes, but fails to discern who rules humanity and what's become of his faction.

[Kelborn]

That's why something like a Vulkan Lives! maze would be fitting. Especially if it's based upon sorcery and rituals instead of rational logic.

 

Travier could lure him into catacombs which are manipulated by the warp through appropiate rituals. Could also be a good chance for Hec to face his demon shard or to show his flaws.

[Sigismund229]

EDIT: What's the Gutuatri?

Who rather than what. The gutuatri are the Lions , well, druids essentially. That means that they serve as chaplains(lawgivers and guardians of tradition,which leads to a subsidiary role as storytellers) and librarians, encapsulating the more mystic side of the druids. As librarians, they practice the traditional "magic" of Mycenae which, among other things, includes prophecy. So they're important advisors to Hec and the Lions more generally.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

EDIT: What's the Gutuatri?

Who rather than what. The gutuatri are the Lions , well, druids essentially. That means that they serve as chaplains(lawgivers and guardians of tradition,which leads to a subsidiary role as storytellers) and librarians, encapsulating the more mystic side of the druids. As librarians, they practice the traditional "magic" of Mycenae which, among other things, includes prophecy. So they're important advisors to Hec and the Lions more generally.

So prognosticator librarians.

[simison]

Whichever the two scenarios happen to the Crimson Lions, they miss the first invasion, which ends after four years in 045.M31. The war goes cold as both Alexandros and Icarion spend more time rebuilding their Legions and carefully probing for weaknesses in each other's lines. There are skirmishes, but nothing else really going on. Icarion summons the Steel Legion to counter the Crimson Lions since both Legion are relatively unscathed, emphasis on the relative. This leaves just the Jade General and Icarion's mortal soldiers to contend with the Predators and the Dune Serpents, who were desperately in need of relief from attrition. 

 

Three years go by as Icarion and Alexandros shuffle entire armies around in move and counter-move. Icarion becomes desperate as his coalition begins to fragment. What finally breaks his resistance to Travier's honeyed offers is the news of the Dark Imperium's first rebellion. Icarion does not have a large enough mortal army to support the Traitor Legions and to hold his empire together. Plus, the Crimson Lions is the sole Loyalist Legion to actually recover their Great Crusade size. If they are not countered, they will soon swing the conflict in favor of the Loyalists.

 

Thus, Icarion begins to prepare for his next thrusts, relying heavily on Pariahs to obscure and confuse his movements to Alexandros' sight. Meanwhile, the Berserkers of Uran are completely removed from the battleline along with a substantial Eagle Warrior force. Travier, since recovered from his duel with Alexandros, is ready for war again and enacts another ritual to further confuse Alexandros' divination. The preparation in total takes six months.

 

048.M31, the year that the Blood Crusade begins. And I need some help. Sig, where's the Eastern border of the Dominion? Also, the Lions never are becalmed. The warp routes are simply teeming with discord and random warp storms appear to slow them down. At no point are the Crimson Lions ever truly stuck. Furthermore, with the scenario we're going with, they never start the journey to Mexicatii.

[bluntblade]

That's why something like a Vulkan Lives! maze would be fitting. Especially if it's based upon sorcery and rituals instead of rational logic.

 

Travier could lure him into catacombs which are manipulated by the warp through appropiate rituals. Could also be a good chance for Hec to face his demon shard or to show his flaws.

I think the current plan is for Travier to bring Hec and Raktra together at the outer limit of the Eye. Hec expels the shard from himself and Travier goes "ah well, consolation prize" and the shard latches onto Raktra, triggering the ascension.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Or the shard explodes. Raktra trmsforms and Trsvier thinks HEC dead

[Kelborn]

 

That's why something like a Vulkan Lives! maze would be fitting. Especially if it's based upon sorcery and rituals instead of rational logic.

 

Travier could lure him into catacombs which are manipulated by the warp through appropiate rituals. Could also be a good chance for Hec to face his demon shard or to show his flaws.

I think the current plan is for Travier to bring Hec and Raktra together at the outer limit of the Eye. Hec expels the shard from himself and Travier goes "ah well, consolation prize" and the shard latches onto Raktra, triggering the ascension.

 

 

How and why does Hec expels the shard from himself? To safe himself?