basic troop choices for Coils of the Hydra lists.

[The laughing raven]

Having read lots of coils lists, I have noticed people generally just opt for the compulsory troops to be a tax rather than making them a workhorse unit as such.

 

What i have been wondering on is how to optimise these units rather than having a third of a 2000pt force just space filler.

 

With a coils force for choices you can either go for just infiltrating keeping the basic costs down but limiting your mutable options in which case you can buy your basic troops cost for 

 

3x tac squads, vox and vex, serg aa, pd&pf, mb, for just 170x3= 540pts (with ave praetor 190= 730), but lack any use but holding obj

 

or a list using 3x tac squads mounted in rhinos for 205x3= 615 (+190 praetor =805 pts.

 

now taking into acc the changes in the last book you can now change things up by getting cheap assault squads and pintle weapons for rhinos. this means you could give your basic troops transport and an anti av/inf heavy weapon.

 

The best option I can see for coils now being;

praetor 190 ave

10 assault marines, serg aa, pw 200pts

2x 10 tacs with 2ccw, v&v, serg aa,pf&pd, mb. rhino with MM 250x 2= 500

 

making your initial start costs about 890 including your praetor, which gives you a basic core list wch with 110pts left for your basic 1000pts game to play with, how do others view these basic troops and what are peoples verdicts on using these to get a result?

 

[Terminus]

Those tactical squads are too expensive for my tastes. All those melee upgrades for a unit that should never see melee, and if it does, it will be some elite unit that kills them anyway. Artificer armor, maybe vexilla and melta bomb, and call it done.

 

Not enough upgrades on those assault marines, who will see combat and need more punch from power weapons (I like 15-strong squads).

[The laughing raven]

What would your three unit set be in that case and how do you go about choosing?

 

I ask because there are mainly 2000pt lists used and for those points it is hard to fit to much into a list if 600pts+ of it is just seen as chaff, this can apply to any other legion where there is a compulsory three core troops, how do you make it more than just 600+pts sitting on objectives waiting for the chance to unleash fotl especially if you want all five options of mutables available?

 

I have to admit that second close combat attack (3rd with charge or counter attack) can make a nasty surprise and has swung several combats for me but that is a personal choice, I still however feel thos fits the jack of all trades the alphas should play.

[Terminus]

3 barebone tactical squads with artificer and rhino are 510 points but I get your meaning. In my current coils list (granted its at 2500 when coils actually works) I take two min squads and an assault squad geared to put in serious work.

 

I've never used counter attack.

[The laughing raven]

so you just use: 

 

2 x 10 tacs with serg aa, rhino 160 x 2 = 320

15 assault marines, 3pow swrords & ...?

 

how do you play them, chaff, obj cappers or?

[Terminus]

Tacticals go after objectives and generally keep their heads down. I'm contemplating whether to make points to arm the Rhinos with multi-meltas and maybe an HK missile so they can at least ding a vehicle when they arrive.

 

Assault marines are counter-attack or intercepting unit for any melee forces that happen to reach my artillery and tyrant gunline.

[The laughing raven]

So I take it yours are more backline space fillers, with the assaults being the workhorse of the three, using artillery to do the actual destruction? would you change the gear if you weren't playing defensive gunline?

 

I've been thinking MM and dozer blades on mine so they can sneak around cover without my ability to roll ones leaving them stuck....

The HK missiles are an interesting thought, has anyone else tried armaments/upgrades on theirs and if so what are the recommendations?

[Terminus]

"Defensive gunline" implies static.

 

This actually my "offensive" gunline, because I start pretty much wherever on the board I want, and have a swift-moving punchy element to the list while the rapiers and siege tyrants slowly push the line and kill all the things.  But yes, tacticals just survive and cheerlead from objectives for the most part. If the goal is to make them contribute more, rather than spend 40 points on melee upgrades I may never use, I rather try spending 20 per Rhino to make them an anti-tank threat. Dozers are a good choice, in my experience. Those 1s always happen in the worst possible moment.

[Baluc]

I like 10 man breacher squads with 2 special weapons and 1 assault squad with 3 power weapons (dependant on meta). But it really depends on your play style. I still think Recon Company is better for Alpha Legion than Coils of the Hydra, especially if you are going the tac squad route, as the soft bonuses insulate and up your alpha strike which is something all infantry armies need. You can bypass the Heavy support in reserves by taking Drop pod Leviathan, and fire raptor. 

[Terminus]

Recon tax is too high and they are nowhere near as survivable as a 10-man squad in a Rhino.  And you don't even get to steal an enemy unit or all the other nice perks of Coils.

[The laughing raven]

I take it you both generally use the infiltrate/scout tactics rather than mixing it up with others then?

 

with regards to choosing breachers, does anyone run them mounted in LR (525pts for full equip) or would that be for none coils lists?

 

the recon rite looks interesting but as terminus says, lacks staying power, I live in phosphex land, so they would disappear in seconds.... also how would I be able to field my Grave wardens?

[Baluc]

Recon tax is too high and they are nowhere near as survivable as a 10-man squad in a Rhino.  And you don't even get to steal an enemy unit or all the other nice perks of Coils.

 

Depends on the terrain you play with. If its ruins you get cover regardless, also recon squads can get rhinos. And, in the world of the new red book there aren't many units to steal. So unless you are stealing Suzerians or Fire Drakes I don't really see a reason for it to be that big a deal. I believe Coils of the Hydra needs Alpharius.

 

Also the benefits stack quickly with Alpha Legion and especially Skorr

 

Rite of Observation + Strategic Genius 

 

Re-roll First turn, Seizing the initiative and, +1 to Seize, re-roll reserves, and you can still take a Damocles

 

You combine it with Leviathans in pods, Deathstorm Drop pods, box/contemptor dreads in pods and Dreadclaws with voxs

 

You can still take Rapiers, or any super heavy and deploy it. 

 

You just need to build to pump up your alpha strike. 

 

I just think Tac squads are poor, so I do my best to never actually take them. I'd rather pay points for something that does something, as opposed to a discounted unit that does little. 

 

However, if you are stuck on coils I'll restate I like 2x breachers 1x Assault squad.

[Terminus]

Siege Tyrants with Infiltrate and tank Hunter, 'nuff said.

 

Skorr pairs with Coils very well too, Alpharius is for 3000 points in my lists.

 

You don't get every super heavy since a Delegatus led detachment can't have LOW.

[Baluc]

Siege Tyrants with Infiltrate and tank Hunter, 'nuff said.

 

Skorr pairs with Coils very well too, Alpharius is for 3000 points in my lists.

 

You don't get every super heavy since a Delegatus led detachment can't have LOW.

 

Well obviously you can't take everything ;)

 

My Alpha 2k list is 

 

Skorr

 

3x 5 man Recons w/Rhino and mm

 

2x DDC & Chainfist 2/ 2x grav

 

3 Quad mortars w/ shatter shells

 

2x Graviton Rapiers

 

3x Deathstorm w/ krak and Drop pod assault

[The laughing raven]

I just think Tac squads are poor, so I do my best to never actually take them. I'd rather pay points for something that does something, as opposed to a discounted unit that does little.

 

This comment is exactly why i started the thread in that it would be a way to help fledgling Alphas learn what ways they can maximise the troops tax and what would work best with the rite and what pris and cons they need to accomodate.

 

For example is giving ddt's a given or for most just fall onto infiltrate, when using this rite?

 

I know there are more powerful rites, for example PotL that 7/10 players opt for, but getting new players understanding the base selections they must take and how to get something out of it?

 

I think breachers are awesome, however it is very difficult to put them into a mounted list, if i do go full infiltrate then its one with meltaguns, serg,Th etc but having two in a 2k list is tight?

[Terminus]

In the case of the recon squads, you spent 300 points instead of 375, and have 15 fewer guys as a result who individually contribute no more than tactical marines. I get the idea of running troops that can do work and aren't just tax, but recon marines do not fit that designation.

 

Also, since you need 3 compulsory choices it gets difficult to juice all three into the realm of competency, when you can usually get two filler units for the cost of one competent one. It becomes a question of, do I want 2 ~250 point troop units that can contribute, or do I want 2 scoring units whose job is to survive for 250 points, and then 250 points of specialists (Elites/Fast Attack/Heavy Support).  The latter option usually results in both more bodies on the table (important for us due to Martial Pride), and more damage output overall.

 

PotL is not that great when giving up 2 VPs, especially for Alpha Legion. Chosen Duty is better if you want to spam Veterans, and Primarch's Chosen if you want terminator troops too.

[Baluc]

Obvious the recon squads would only be comparable in a Recon Company, but it may just highlight a difference in approach. I don't see any intrinsic value to the 5 extra bodies, other than having 5 extra bodies. In many cases having smaller units is itself a benefit. For example hiding LoS from template and the such, or forcing resource management onto the opponent. Truthfully I would probably drop the Rhinos If I didn't want to use them as walls, nothing stops a Leviathan or Leviathan charge like having to kill a Rhino before he can charge your unit.

 

But really what I like about recon squads is.

 

Annoying to remove -> infiltrate, shroud grenades, and shrouding

Cheap -> Min squad with shotguns/rhino/mm is 25 points cheaper which is Armoured Ceremite territory or a 3rd quad mortar across 3 units

Hide able -> worst case you can just chuck them in outflank and they would re-roll reserves and which board edge they come on

 

The real issue I suppose would be that coils requires 3 troops choices anyway, and then I get the "benefit" of purchasing yet more infantry... yeah! I also would prefer to not have to default to Infiltrate, as scout is just as powerful in Recon Company.

 

I'm glad to see that FW is doing what they can to make the basic marine a little more attractive, with LA:X rules, but they still seem to have the hand break on, for example letting SoH death dealer when they FotL.

 

You're correct on Pride... Its not very good, has many restrictions and worse of all turns tight games into loses especially for AL as you can give up 3 vps in a mission not about killing models by... having your models killed.

 

I think Primarch's Chosen is a much better and fairer RoW and probably should replaced it outright once all the Primarchs are released. I'm sitting on a bunch of Jetbikes and was considering an AL skyhunter phalanx haven't got around to list yet though.

[The laughing raven]

I've enjoyed using recon marines with my fists for barrage los and bs5 bolters but not so keen for AL, they seem to expensive for a full 10 man squad, when its either they become the workhorse and no spec units or to small and just provide los.

 

I'd like to have one of each basic but will have to save for a second landraider to transport the breachers.

 

with regards to your stolen unit, how come you don't give them a transport or do you tend to footslog everything from infiltrated positions, i tend to set aside at least 500pts for the treasonous unit so they can have a LR mount.

 

I'm thinking to mainly think of the tacs squads as a mini razorback with the ability to take objs, and only disembarking if infantry near,

with regards to the other basic troops how do people use the common Assault squad?

 

And i say again I know we have lots of other rites but to keep new AL players fluffy how do you choose for CotH?

[Terminus]

Siege Tyrants need to be outside of a transport to function. Not a fan of Land Raiders (well, I am thematically, but they've been overcosted for a decade or more) anyway.

 

We've already pretty much gone over all the options, the only legal choices are tactical marines, breachers and assault squads.

 

Tacticals

Pro: Cheapest, Can get Rhino which can take some nice anti-tank upgrades that work well with deployment tricks

Con: Don't do much unless someone wanders into rapid fire range, Rhino upgrades eat into your cost savings

Example: 10 Tactical Marines, Vexilla, Sgt. with artificer armor (145) + Rhino with dozer, multi-melta (55) = 200 points

 

Breachers

Pro: can take two special weapons and a breacher charge on Sgt, a bit more survivable than tacticals (especially in melee)

Con: silly expensive (+75 points base cost increase over tacs, vexilla costs 50% more, etc.), no transport options except land raiders or dreadclaws

Example: 10 Breachers, Vexilla, 2x Meltaguns, Sgt. with artificer armor, combi-melta, breaching charge (275) + Proteus with dozer, multi-melta, ceramite (220) = 495 LOL

 

Assault Marines

Pro: can deep strike or take advantage of all our deployment tricks with their 12" move, can take 2 specials/power weapons, Sgt gets 3 power fist attacks and a 5++ in melee, meet Rite requirements without need for transport or picking a particular tactic

Cons: most vulnerable to shooting of the lot (although base-size helps somewhat against templates), no vexilla/vox options

Example: 10 Assault Marines, 2 power axes, Sgt with artificer armor, power fist, power dagger, combat shield = 228

 

From a pure points efficiency, the assault marines are probably your best bet. You spend <700 points for 30 mobile troops who pack a nice punch in melee. Certainly preferable to spending 40 points in combat upgrades for the Rhino tactical squad.

 

I choose to go for two of the first option just for more board presence and the resiliency of rhino hull, and then really pump up the third troop (which is assault marines) with 5 more members, meltaguns, an apothecary and a vigilator.

 

Between infiltrate, scout, and jump packs, this unit ends its first movement phase 6" behind the opponent.

[The laughing raven]

I would say that is a great summary, would be good to get a similar break down done for the other units we can access and how they work with regards to our specific rites, although I should think the Headhunter Leviathal rite would purely be for narrative campaigns as it looks rather awkward to build competitively....

 

shall be seeing how my troops hold up in saturdays game against Skitarii/TS Sons phosphex brigade....

[Terminus]

Leviathal and Headhunters may as well just not exist. Awful, just awful.

[The laughing raven]

Its a real shame as i would love to do a headhunter themed army but no....

[Xenith]

Between infiltrate, scout, and jump packs, this unit ends its first movement phase 6" behind the opponent.

And what do they do from there?

[Terminus]

Usually puts two or three meltaguns up something's tailpipe. 

[The laughing raven]

since when do assault marines have access to meltaguns? can see plas pistols for the troops and the serg, but no meltas anywhere....?