bluntblade Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 As Squig had it, the Serpents operated in a dispersed manner long before the Insurrection began. Hence so many finding that loyalty to their Primarch counted for little. I doubt Azus would gather them into large forces in this scenario unless it was to tackle another Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4796243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 What I meant to point out was that the Dune Serpents would have the manpower on hand for such a campaign of butchery and terror. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4796248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 True, but a campaign specifically of butchery raises questions. For starters, whether Alexandros has any control over what his subordinates are doing. It's early in the campaign, support for Icarion over the Emperor is pretty weak, so the Serpents should be attacking political and military figures instead rather than risk more worlds and regiments throwing their lot in with Icarion. Conversely, they could also quite happily waste whole workforces on other worlds. Â The other thing is that if the main Serpents are massacring their way through civilian populations from the off, then what the Viper Fangs and other extremists on both sides do doesn't seem that severe. Let's ease into the atrocities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4796254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 So, I've thought a bit about the Serpents. As I've said, we need the main Legion to have a line they're unwilling to cross, so that the more extremist cells actually are extremists. So I suggest the Serpents attack any mustering points or manufacturing sites for the Traitors, killing millions but not billions on those worlds, and leaving weakened foes for the Army and Solar Auxilia to mop up. The Eastern Fringe ought to contain a whole lot of mortal armies, as it constitutes a lot of recently conquered worlds which should be heavily garrisoned by the Imperium. These will drastically outnumber the Dune Serpents, so Azus would be relatively free to run interference for them, while Lawrenz might assume command for a large force of them.  As we've discussed, for things to escalate the carnage needs to be restrained just a little to begin with. If entire planets burn, it should be a relatively rare occurrence. Once Azus is captured though, several cells could go pretty much off the rails and just start wrecking worlds.  I have some reservations about the Steel Legion simply wanting to take the secrets of Hephaesta. Apart from anything else, Kelbor-Hal is now ensconced within Icarion's realm, his political clout diminished but still potent. So how about Kelbor-Hal takes several Taghmata to conquer it, the Legions having extracted a pledge that he will grant them access to whatever is found there?  Final thing - we've already had Icarion make false assumptions. Let's not overdo it and have him seemingly judge everything wrongly. He predicts a gruelling campaign, but it grows into a conflict larger than even he had envisaged. And we ought to hand him some substantial wins at the end, but more generally let's not give them the end result in the opening spiel. Plus it gives us a little bit of suspense for when the Serpents roll with their fractured state and keep the conflict grinding on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4817803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 More broadly, though, Eastern Fringe. What's important there in our version? Hephaesta, obviously, but what other worlds? It won't be as prosperous as the canon version (courtesy of Guilliman), but it'll be plenty populous, and so we need to consider what sort of military forces will be stationed there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4817881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 So, I've thought a bit about the Serpents. As I've said, we need the main Legion to have a line they're unwilling to cross, so that the more extremist cells actually are extremists. So I suggest the Serpents attack any mustering points or manufacturing sites for the Traitors, killing millions but not billions on those worlds, and leaving weakened foes for the Army and Solar Auxilia to mop up. The Eastern Fringe ought to contain a whole lot of mortal armies, as it constitutes a lot of recently conquered worlds which should be heavily garrisoned by the Imperium. These will drastically outnumber the Dune Serpents, so Azus would be relatively free to run interference for them, while Lawrenz might assume command for a large force of them.  As we've discussed, for things to escalate the carnage needs to be restrained just a little to begin with. If entire planets burn, it should be a relatively rare occurrence. Once Azus is captured though, several cells could go pretty much off the rails and just start wrecking worlds.  I have some reservations about the Steel Legion simply wanting to take the secrets of Hephaesta. Apart from anything else, Kelbor-Hal is now ensconced within Icarion's realm, his political clout diminished but still potent. So how about Kelbor-Hal takes several Taghmata to conquer it, the Legions having extracted a pledge that he will grant them access to whatever is found there?  Final thing - we've already had Icarion make false assumptions. Let's not overdo it and have him seemingly judge everything wrongly. He predicts a gruelling campaign, but it grows into a conflict larger than even he had envisaged. And we ought to hand him some substantial wins at the end, but more generally let's not give them the end result in the opening spiel. Plus it gives us a little bit of suspense for when the Serpents roll with their fractured state and keep the conflict grinding on. The carnage IS restrained at first. With Azus in charge, the massacres and butchery carried out by the Dune Serpents is targeted. They aren't doing it just because they can or just for the kicks, they're doing it to terrify Insurrectionist worlds back into loyalty and to remind loyal worlds why they should stay loyal. So the violence will be targeted rather than random and widespread like it becomes following Azus' capture. So it will be more like "If we butcher a large portion of this world's populace, it will probably terrify the dozen or so surrounding worlds back into Imperial control" and less "It's a hive world. Let's release gas into the air system just to hear them scream".  Kelbor-Hal will be a spent force politically. He lost Mars and the loyalty he has among the rest of the Mechanicum is questionable at best. And the reason the Steel Legion are doing this now is that the Mechanicum isn't exactly forthecoming with sharing knowledge, so if they take Hepheasta the chances of any deal regarding sharing its secrets are slim. So the Steel Legion are going for it themselves to ensure they get them.  Problem is, in the FW books, the end result normally is given in the opening. So the opening is an overview and then the other chapters show how it happened in more detail. And Icarion does get a substantial win in the end. Most of the Eastern Fringe is in Insurrectionist hands and the VE&DS can't move away to defend Terra for fear that the rest of it will fall. So Icarion was only partially wrong. He was right that the Eastern Fringe would mostly fall quickly to a two legion assault but he underestimated the tenacity of loyalist forces on the Fringe and he didn't foresee Alex sending the VE. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4817994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Well, it's more that Azus should be considering military targets over civilian ones until the odds become too great. In the early years, most of those worlds will be relatively loyal to the Emperor (because of Alex's work as Warmaster), so there shouldn't be that much need to destroy population centres. As Icarion gains ground, more and more worlds go over to his banner, and Azus begins to target the populations of those worlds. Â Trouble is, if the Steel Legion does that it threatens serious ructions with the other Mechanics factions under Icarion's control. He needs them on side. Admittedly at this stage he could begin to favour other factions. At the same time, it seems a bit premature to write off Kelbor-Hal at this stage, and he'd still have some pull with other Forge Worlds. Â It's more the phrasing in that case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4818043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 So I'd modify this:  2B intro  Ever since the Day of Revelation, the Eastern Fringe had been host to the loyalist Dune Serpents, led by their primarch, Azus. Plagued by defections and hit hard by the Day of Revelation like every loyalist legion, these Dune Serpents were a pitiful remnant of the force that which had prosecuted the Great Crusade, numbering just 48,000 strong, a number even exceeded by the Iron Bears. However, small though they were, the Dune Serpents had struck back with punches that went well above their weight, disrupting Insurrectionist supply lines and unleashing their chemical arsenals against the Stormlord's cities, slaughtering untold billions. Some worlds they reclaimed from the Stormlord’s armies but more often they would simply wreck the world’s, realising that they did not have the manpower to hold them against the Stormlord’s armies when they returned as they inevitably would and so, all along the eastern frontier of the Stormlord’s new realm, worlds burned or were left destroyed in the wake of Dune Serpent assaults.  To:  (Preamble about state of the Dune Serpents) Reduced though they were, Azus swiftly devised a strategy to compensate for his Legion's situation, using them to blunt the enemy's advance while Army and Solar Auxilia regiments held the line. Insurrectionist supply lines were attacked, their goods plundered or destroyed. Expeditionary fleets arrived at the front under-equipped and leeched of their strength. The XIVth Legion's murderous chem-weapon arsenals were also deployed against mustering armies. As the campaign progressed, they were used for retribution against those worlds which defected to the Stormlord's banner. Under the pitiless eyes of Azus, billions were killed in this manner, empty hive cities serving as grim warnings to any who contemplated rebellion. Morale among the mortal Insurrectionist troops plummeted, and the Imperials forced them into retreat in several sectors, Jon Lawrenz assuming command of several regiments and spearheading the assault on the fortress world of (add something existing or make one up?). Some worlds such as Pavonis were seized and fortified, while others were simply stripped of any assets deemed valuable to the campaign, before the Dune Serpents reduced them to husks, lacking any value for the foe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4818061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 That aside, we should consider what Mechanicum allies Icarion might use. The Drowned have extensive alliances and we haven't actually determined which sect that is. Â I'm actually going to start up a thread so we can see which Forge Worlds fall within Icarion's borders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4818069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 Did you have a fortress world in mind for the DS' preamble? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4822839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I didn't, and have been looking for a canon one that isn't tied to Ultramar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4822982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I didn't, and have been looking for a canon one that isn't tied to Ultramar I don't think there are. In canon, the Eastern Fringe is so heavily tied in to Ultramar that most everything there is associated with Ultramar in some way Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4823128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 We'll just have to invent, then Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4823267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 We'll just have to invent, then Pretty much Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4823276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 We'll just have to invent, then  Let me know when you've done it. Once you've tweaked that paragraph, that'll finish the last of the book intros...supposedly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4826217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Random query; I know we've talked about adding a general use Baal style Predator, would this be a good place to introduce it? Also if we do, may I make the suggestion of it having twin linked Kheres pattern Cannons since the more compact version is limited at this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4828666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Well we dod already agree that Book 2C would be an updates and BotL specific wargear etc. book. So things like such a general use baal predator, Icarion's enforcers and underwater weaponry for the legions is going in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4828734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Awesome, sometimes I get lost on layout plans since I'm just focusing on story details ATM, making sure characters aren't showing up at two places at once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4828944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Are there any Legions besides the Dune Serpents who we've had campaigning in the Eastern Fringe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4829385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted July 23, 2017 Author Share Posted July 23, 2017 Nothing explicitly mentioned if we're talking about the Great Crusade era. But given that Ultima is the largest Segmentum, I wouldn't be surprised if half the Legions had been making progress there before the Insurrection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4829424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 It'd stand to reason that one or two might have garissons out there still. Though some of those might fall early on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4829507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted July 23, 2017 Author Share Posted July 23, 2017 It'd stand to reason that one or two might have garissons out there still. Though some of those might fall early on.  Well, since the HW typically handle garrison duty, that's one easy pick. The Berserkers' homeworld is in Ultima, so they'd be another natural pick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4829509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Somehow I can't see the 'Serkers taking kindly to garrisson duty. Godslayers? Being siege specialists garrisson duty might suit them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4829544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted July 23, 2017 Author Share Posted July 23, 2017 Sorry, I meant a natural pick as a Legion operating on the Eastern front. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4829548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Speaking of which, how much of the HW legion is on garrisson duty at the start of the Insurrection? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325484-black-book-the-eastern-expansion-campaigns/page/25/#findComment-4829558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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