Opinion: How Many Flyers?

[zero88]

I'm looking for input on how many flyers you think is the maximum for a feasible list. Let's assume it's an 1850pt match on a standard 6x4 table. Storm Talon's and other flyers have a relatively small footprint, but all of our Valkyrie variants have a MASSIVE footprint in comparison. So at what point does it become too hard to maneuver all of the big birds and detract from their effectiveness as a whole? Thanks!

[librisrouge]

I've fielded six before and I can tell you...it was hard. Five is probably more managable. At the same time, I had almost 100 infantry on the table, so I took up a lot of room to begin with. A smaller, or mechanized, ground game might have let me be more comfortable with six.

[Shamansky]

i think 3 is a good number. Usually i field 2 Vendettas if i take them at all. The main trouble with flyers is that they must come from reserves. It's a matter of luck if they coame when you need them. and i do remember a game when 6 twin-linked las cannons did nothing but jink and miss. so i think it's not really wise to over invest in air alpha-strike. I'd concentrate on sustaining ground power.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Well, it's going to depend on a couple of factors. I'm going to put all of my cards on the table, I have 7 flyers now. 2 Valkyries, 1 Vendetta, 2 Vultures, and 2 Thunderbolts (unbuilt). The Vultures make it easy to place them, considering they have Vector dancer, which allows them to make 2 pivots 90 degree pivots, and the thunderbolts don't need to do much their first turn, since they have deep strike. Thunderbolts will need to zoom, but that's fine, since they'll likely come on turn 2 (my rolls are good, and there are things like comms arrays and officers of the fleet to make that better), they'll get 2 turns of shooting before flying off, only to come back my next turn.

 

I've run my 2 valks and my one vendetta in a game, and it was annoying because the board was saturated with terrain. It's going to depend a lot on what you are asking the flyers to do.

 

I generally find that it becomes easier to use multiple flyers if you drop them to hover (if they can). Yes they can be assaulted, but it's easier to move them around that way, besides, they should have already done their job by then.

 

Best way I have found to run a ton of flyers is out of the Elysian list.

[WarriorFish]

I agree that three feels like a safe number if you're worried about manoeuvring/positioning space. As mentioned the nature of reserves means there may be more scope as they come in at different turns/edges meaning you can move them around each other better, but that depends on rolls somewhat! As Ulrik said the option to drop into hover mode shouldn't be forgotten, it's a matter of picking the right flyer and position then.

[Shamansky]

i think hover mode is not obligatory while deepstriking a flyer. deepstriking vehicle is considered as it has moved at combat speed. So no 'crash and burn' for zooming flyers. Or was it mentioned in different way in that draft FAQ?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

i think hover mode is not obligatory while deepstriking a flyer. deepstriking vehicle is considered as it has moved at combat speed. So no 'crash and burn' for zooming flyers. Or was it mentioned in different way in that draft FAQ?

I didn't see anything in the FAQ, and frankly, if they had it would have made the deep strike on the thunderbolt, lightning, and avenger utterly moot, considering they still have those rules.

 

You are right, hover is not obligatory for flyers entering from deep strike, as I mentioned about the FW flyers. However, my point was that on flyers that can hover, it shouldn't be discounted, as it can make maneuvering them around a whole lot easier, since you'll only need to move the ones that are required to zoom. That will let you keep the best firing position for units like valkyries, vendettas, and vultures. If I understand the rules correctly, Vultures will always have strafing run and you don't lose it going to hover, unless I'm missing a rule, so going to hover mode isn't a terrible idea there either.

 

Just remember that when you drop to hover, the flyer can be targeted normally (it is treated as a fast skimmer), and can be assaulted, so make sure to take out any threats to them before you drop your flyers to hover.

[dakkamasta]

Considering with the Death from the skies book being out now, vendettas have gone from a great unit to a downright ridiculous unit. Yes they lost skyfire, but by taking a flyer wing of 3 you gain access to tank hunter, ignores cover, bonus to jink and break turns via the wing leader. Ever since that book came out, i've been using my hydras for anti-air and the vendettas seem to be mvp every game, they simply annihilate everything they have in their sights now. They can still be decent in the air aswell since with 3 twin-linked shots you're likely to get at least 1 hit, combined with either tank hunter or ignores cover, that lascannon is going to hit home.

 

Now something i realised that may seem a bit cheesy perhaps you guys can add some insight. With the new air superiority detachment only requiring 2 or more flyers from any faction. As far as i can find within the rules and faq's we can take an air superiority detachment from the elysian drop troops from the forgeworld book, which are 8 melta bombs cheaper and carry 12 models. Once again i know it's cheesy (but hey we're only guard so its okay) but as far as i have found so far, this is completely legal. Am i wrong? 

[march10k]

I think 2-3 is probably the best number, one as an interceptor and one or two as transports or ground attack.  But you really need that one dedicated air superiority fighter, unless you're ignoring the dogfighting phase.  You can probably get away with more than three, but then you're just playing a flier list with a couple of ground units tacked on, and then it gets very asymmetric.

 

Right now, my only fliers are four valks, a vendetta, a dark talon, and a (unassembled) nightwing.  Oh, and a steagle, but that's for 30k.  I'm really in need of some air superiority fighters for my DA and my guard.  I've always wanted a pair of thunderbolts, now they're practically a necessity.  And the death from the skies supplement actually makes the nephy worth taking for the first time ever, so that's on my "get a round tuit" list.

 

For the corsairs list I'm building, the nightwing is probably going to be my only flier, it's there for fluff and for the dogfight phase, it's too vulnerable on the tabletop to really survive beyond avoiding ground fire for the one mandatory turn on the table before zooming off...and of course, each time it comes on, it's a threat to any enemy filer already on the table.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I agree with March, about needing one air superiority fighter in your flier mix. I got my two thunderbolts because of it, well, that and I wanted thunderbolts. I do wish that the flyer wing operated more like the 30k Orbital Strike Wing, because keeping fliers in coherency is wretchedly difficult.

[calgar101]

Two is a good number, it gives you thate redundancy element. Says the guy with no flyers

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Two is a good number, it gives you thate redundancy element. Says the guy with no flyers

It depends on what flyer you're talking about. I wouldn't have more than 1 Marauder, because you'll need to run dual CAD and need at least 1200 points to do it, that's less upgrades on everything.

 

If you plan to use DftS, I'd go three of the same type at least, to take advantage of the attack patterns (or whatever they're called). Unless you're like me, and really don't care to run from DftS.

[HackedDuck]

If I had the cash to splurge I would buy a vulture for mowing down infantry, vendetta for blowing up tanks and a thunderbolt for taking out fliers. Each flyer has a role and can carry it out. Any more flyers would be wasted imho.

[calgar101]

I have not looked at dfts and like you don't have a care for it. In an apocalypse game in would run 2+ marauders ☺

With my marine army I always take minimum two flyers; storm talon and raven and quite often 2 talons and 1 raven. Maybe my last longer of guard flyer experience shows.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Eh, not so fast Duck. I agree with most of what you said, but I wouldn't dismiss the FW zooming fliers either. The Lightning, Thunderbolt, and Avenger can all deep strike, which means they can appear directly behind a flyer to get the killshot, or directly in front of a unit to lay into them. Also remember that said flyers can all be strike fighters, which means they operate under the standard flyer rules (can target anything flying or on the ground without penalties).

 

Anyway, Zooming flyers are a bit of a pain, because they can't do anything to stay on the table longer. Generally, they'll fly off the table. Still, I like them, as they're a bit more challenging to use, and not nearly as much of a pain to deal with.

[HackedDuck]

Yes that is true,ulrik I forgot about that.

If I was going to be bringing one flyer I think I would go for the avenger as it fulfills two roles if using DFtS, if not then probally just a vulture

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have 2 Vultures, 2 Valkyries, a Vendetta and (now) 2 Thunderbolts. The fun thing is, I like to use Elysians, which lets me get all of that in a single detachment (unless I use DftS). The Vulture is, however my go to flyer for the Guard, since it synergizes so well.

 

I went with the thunderbolt because it's tough, and can be used in 30k and 40k.

[M@verik115]

I find flyers too situational and not that reliable. 
You get too short a window to really use them. 

Having said that, I have used vultures and vendettas to decent effect, but I still find a tank or 2 more reliable and worth it over the course of a game. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I agree that flyers can be a pain to use, and that they may not get to spend enough time on the board to be useful. It's going to depend, though, on what your metric for success is. If any one of my units has done the job I intended it to do, it's successful, regardless of whether it made it's points back. Did that 50 man conscript blob tie up that big killy unit for a while? Yes or no. If yes, it did it's job, if it actually killed the big killy unit, then that's icing on the murdercake.

 

When talking about fliers, they're a very specialized unit, and I take them in almost all my lists, because they can be such a pain to deal with. It forces my opponent to make some choices. If he doesn't worry about them, they tear his lines apart. If he does, that's time he's spent not shooting at something else, like my infantry or knights.

 

It also forces my opponent to make list building choices, like whether or not he wants to dedicate part of his list to countering my flyers. Does he take his own fliers, or does he just take some AAA?

 

I also really like Airpower. It's kinda my thing. I always play combined arms because it gives me the biggest challenge.