Tank (LeMan Russ) Riders

[Captain General]

In WWII, the Russians had special SMG tank rider units which rode tanks into battle as transports. Has anyone developed a unit and rules for same?

 

 CG

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Though the Aesthetic for WH40k is very WW1, and some of the tactics are very WW2 regarding tanks, the tank desant (the tactic you described) is not really one of them for a few reasons.

 

1) Hard to represent on the tabletop

2) Why have infantry riding on tanks, when you have transports

3) Over complicated ruleset would become necessary

4) Infantry and leman russ tanks move at about the same speed

 

Also, the tactic of riding into battle on a tank has fallen out of use. It is against doctrine in the US Military (and I assume most western militaries), and is really only used as a field expedient measure for fast transit. Coupled with the fact that active protection systems like explosive reactive armor make it dangerous to be on or near a tank. Also, the Gas turbine engines used on some tanks produce extremely hot exhaust, making it very uncomfortable (even dangerous, turbine exhaust will burn you, and can melt uniforms and soft body armor).

 

Does that stop you from saying your troops use the tactic, absolutely not. It's hard to represent on the tabletop though, unless you decide to modify a bunch of guardsmen into correct poses and glue them all over your tanks. Even then, it's far more economical to just walk your troops in front of the russ.

 

You also have to consider that the Russ is very slow, and does not accurately represent what WW2 tanks were like. The tank in WW2 was faster than the infantry it was intended to support, which, more than anything, gave rise to the Armored Personnel Carrier. In WW2 the tank came into its own as a weapon of war. In WW1 the tank's role was to be a mobile pillbox. The typical tank carried light artillery weapons (small direct fire cannons and machine guns, yes machine guns were considered artillery at one time). In WW2 the tank's role morphed to include the traditional cavalry role. Today, we have the Main Battle Tank, which combines all the tank and tank destroyer armored roles into a single vehicle, that can destroy enemy armor, and support infantry operations. 

 

The Leman Russ would have been considered a heavy tank (in fluff, it actually is...). It is not the spearhead of an assault, which is where the Tank Desant tactic would be found in use. The Russ would instead be the tanks behind the spearhead providing the long ranged fire from their heavy guns. The ideal IG tank for the Tank Desant would actually be a Hellhound or variant of the same.

 

Now, in HH Solar Auxilia it would be different, since the Leman Russ is not a heavy vehicle.

 

I can think of a couple ways you could represent this tactic. The Tank in question would have to gain the transport type, and it would also have to gain something like the stormlord's open-topped. It would also have to have a capacity of at least 10 models, and it would also have to have the downside of causing more wounds to the occupants (due to them being clustered together more closely than even in an ordinary open topped transport).

 

Or...

 

The infantry unit itself gains a rule that says they may embark upon any vehicle with the tank type. They must treat the vehicle as open-topped for the purposes of embarking and disembarking, the vehicle does not gain the Open-Topped type. Additionally, if the vehicle is hit, regardless of whether it was damaged, the unit suffers D3 hits at the weapon's profile.

 

Those could work, and the infantry unit would probably be the best way, but balancing it would get tedious.

 

I'm all about people using themes for their armies, and trying to make their armies their own, but some things are just complicated and doing something you like, so I tried not to sound like I was poo pooing your idea. I just don't think it's feasible to represent on the table. I also do not think that anyone would actually prefer that over the use of a chimera or even a taurox.

[Canadian_F_H]

It's kind of like the question, where are the imperial guard trucks? Most infantry reserves are moved rapidly via big trucks, but they have disembarked well enough away from the front lines. One could say that in a given battle, the trucks are about a boards depth behind the IG player's deployment zone... similarly any troops riding tanks have disembarked once they have reached engagement distance from the enemy...

 

The obvious gap being trucks could be ambushed... and obviously should exist in game even if for that reason alone.

[Father Mehman]

It's kind of like the question, where are the imperial guard trucks? Most infantry reserves are moved rapidly via big trucks, but they have disembarked well enough away from the front lines. One could say that in a given battle, the trucks are about a boards depth behind the IG player's deployment zone... similarly any troops riding tanks have disembarked once they have reached engagement distance from the enemy...

 

The obvious gap being trucks could be ambushed... and obviously should exist in game even if for that reason alone.

 

I know what you mean by trucks (gods know I've been in enough), but for a scenario, I would think the Taurox could do the job to at least proxy them. That could actually be really fun to play. Have, say, three or four Tauroxes with a Chimera in the front and rear and then the enemy could deploy to either side of the convoy. The object would be to get the Tauroxes off the board before they're crippled. I think that exact scenario was in a Gaunt's Ghosts book, actually. Well, either way, I'd play it.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Another issue, is one of size. The leman russ may be able to accommodate 10 guys riding on top, but not a chimera chassis. It would be a neat idea, but you have chimeras, and the APC was the one reason that the tactic fell by the wayside.

 

Now, one IG regiment I could absolutely see using this would be the catachans. Given their vietnam era US military theme, and the prominent use of this tactic during vietnam, that would make sense. It was done in vietnam because the APC of the time (the M113) was not climate controlled, making the thing a sweatbox, and rocket launchers would quickly turn it into a burning deathtrap. Soldiers chose to ride on top, to keep more eyes out for possible ambush and because anyone injured inside would likely be stuck there.

 

Also, the Russians still do it, though it is against their military doctrine to do so. Their Experience in Afghanistan and Chechnya have taught them much. US troops do it to a lower degree, and only as field expedient.

 

 

 

 

It's kind of like the question, where are the imperial guard trucks? Most infantry reserves are moved rapidly via big trucks, but they have disembarked well enough away from the front lines. One could say that in a given battle, the trucks are about a boards depth behind the IG player's deployment zone... similarly any troops riding tanks have disembarked once they have reached engagement distance from the enemy...

The obvious gap being trucks could be ambushed... and obviously should exist in game even if for that reason alone.

 

I know what you mean by trucks (gods know I've been in enough), but for a scenario, I would think the Taurox could do the job to at least proxy them. That could actually be really fun to play. Have, say, three or four Tauroxes with a Chimera in the front and rear and then the enemy could deploy to either side of the convoy. The object would be to get the Tauroxes off the board before they're crippled. I think that exact scenario was in a Gaunt's Ghosts book, actually. Well, either way, I'd play it.

 

Riding into the combat zone in trucks is probably the way the IG gets it's boys to the fighting. Well, that and chimeras and valkyries. As for the Taurox proxying said trucks, I don't think that's necessary. I think the Taurox is exactly what the IG would use to transport men and supplies to the combat zone.

 

Real World, you can fit 10 guys plus gear in the back of an LMTV (M1081, short wheelbase 4x4 truck, with a 5 ton capacity I think). Not too much of a stretch to think a Taurox would be radically different... The big difference of course being that we haven't put a pair of M242 bushmasters on our LMTVs. Though we have put them on MRAPs...

 

The Cougar H 4x4 is 2 M242's and some big mattrax away from being a Taurox...

[shandwen]

Another tabletop game (which will leave unnamed) has rules for tank riders. A squad may ride on a tank, but as soon as shots are fired at the tank they perform what amounts to an emergency disembark. That would be the basic rules for doing it, and would show the pros cons, and probably only be useful for something far more dangerous to ride on (greyhounds).

[WarriorFish]

There were rules for tank riding once, a fair time ago. There was a chance of a casualty on a 1 if I remember right but I can't remember where it was from. May have been an expansion of a sort, perhaps something like Cities of Death maybe?

[march10k]

Um...I think this is represented in 40k, but not in IG.  The eldar Falcon is clearly a "proper tank" (not as sexy as the fire prism, though), and has a passenger capacity, but one that is too small for guardians...it's ideal for the sort of small units of specialists (apsect warriors) that correspond very well to the SMG-toting bubbas of yore.  

[CommodusXIII]

The old metal Valhallan range had tank riders - I added them to both of the vehicles in my WWII Soviet-themed army. I have an unfinished Ragnarok conversion that has matched pairs of magnetized riders and infantry models. I was working on a Kill Team-style mission where every tank crewmember/rider had a character. Then the Skitarii came around and I never got back to it.

[march10k]

Then the Skitarii came around and I never got back to it.

 

That's how it goes...I was working on the ground assault formation from C:MT to go with my air cav one, then I got a squad of shadow spectres on a whim (I don't do eldar....only now I do), that necessitated the IA book with the spectres in it, and that led to an eldar corsairs army (which is the centerpiece of that IA book) planned for next year's tourney circuit...God only knows when I'll get back to the kasrkin!

[Emicus]

You mean you dont model 'extra armour' with your men? This lapse in procedure will be dealt with immediately!

 

(lol who takes one of the least useful upgrades ever)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You won't think extra armor is useless once you've had a leman Russ stun locked out of position...

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's useful, occasionally, but at 10pts there's more useful things. :)

 

Hellhound chassis vehicles would be a good fit for tank riders, though they'd be insanely dangerous as well. Couldn't see anything larger than a Special Weapon Squad mounting one, though.