Militarum Tempestus - Help with Tactics

[Meps]

Hey Guys,

Im still evolving my mobile army list based around Taurox's and aggressive infantry.

 

Im thinking about involving scions and wondered what tactics people have had the most success with if any. I am trying to move away from the whole deep striking with 2 melta's thing.

What I was considering it having my Platoon Command Squads from my AM in chimera and squads in Taurox, using them aggressively to push towards objective and then deep striking units of around 8 scions nearby to deal with threats. This would allow the PCS to issue FRF to them and open up a lot of hurt.

 

I also liked the look of the orders from the MT codex such as giving all the weapon sniper special rule to wreck bikes, MC's etc, but obviously this would involved taking a scion command squad which could get expensive.

So yeh, im really looking for any good tactics that utilise scions. Any particular focus around using them barebones with orders to take out everything but tanks would be great.

Cheers

[Apothecary Meros]

I've found a lot of success using Valkyrie insertions to drop Scions with flamers or volley guns to deal with any hard targets. Volley Guns are very effective marine killers, so if you ever have a problem with some space marines knocking in your door, send in a Volley gun or two and you can say goodbye to any Astartes battle line.

 

Of course, spamming fliers full of hot-shot flavoured death isn't for everyone, so deep striking them normally might be a good idea. Have the bulk of your Astra Militarum attack from the front, and deep strike the scions inside to both cause some havoc and draw the enemy guns away from your guardsmen for a turn or two, by which point you'll be close enough to deliver some punishing firepower of your own.

[WarriorFish]

I'm sure our Stormtrooper commanders can chime in with more in depth help, but I wouldn't take them bare bones. Having two special weapons at BS4 in a five man squad is a big deal and not something you want to discard - all Scion squads should have two! If you're keen to keep them focused in role then at least give them the volley gun, otherwise it's a waste of potential Stormies can ill afford.

[Meps]

My thinking was that we already pay a premium for the hot-shot lasguns. Making special weapon upgrades a really inefficient upgrade points wise unless they are needed to do a specific job.

 

With their orders the hot-shot lasgun can already handle a multitude of targets. Meaning each weapon upgrade could be an extra trooper.

 

Im hoping somebody who has used them a fair bit can comment on this sort of tactic

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I never take a scion squad without special weapons. My special weapon of choice is the plasma gun. At 12" pumping out 4 S7 AP2 shots is pretty brutal. I like to take my scions in squads of 10, because it gives them a bit more staying power (not running away as soon). Scions can be a brutal beta strike (since almost no one gets to deep strike first turn anymore). Deep Strike and Move Through Cover are a powerful combo, making deep striking them much easier. For instance you can deep strike them directly into cover without a dangerous terrain test. This also makes them ideal for grav chute insertion from valkyries, for the same reason.

 

If you're taking mechanized forces, take the auger arrays, to give your scions a way to drop in exactly where they may be needed. Or you can forego the auger arrays and just let the chips fall where they may.

 

Unfortunately, scions do less than their Storm Trooper predecessors. They can't hold their own in combat, and they're most effective inside the charge range. They're also too costly to mechanize, so they make terrible dragoons. Their command squad can issue orders, but junior officer only, and only 1 per turn, which means you'll only ever use the order on the command squad itself (doubly so if you go the C:MT route). You'll only take vox casters if you have a different source of orders, like Yarrick or a Company Command Squad.

 

As much as I love the hotshot lasgun, it too suffers some problems, namely being rapid fire. That means you need to get uncomfortably close to make full use of it, and that means the unit will likely die to a charge.

 

Also, unless you're using Vostroyans as your regular guardsmen, or you're running kasrkin or old metal stormies, the new models look glaringly out of place in a guard army.

 

Sadly, Scions have but one purpose in their current iteration, suicide special weapons squads.

[calgar101]

I have not used mine too much, mainly bought them as the modelsun are really cool. I've armed mine with two flamers and intend to camp and objective, clear away any one attempting to take it.

[zero88]

Aside from deep striking, the ground attack formation appeals to me, taking the Scion squads in sets of 8 with a pair of plasma guns. Statistically when they disembark in rapid fire range they should be able to kill a MSU squad of Marines in cover. If they can't do it on their own their Taurox can finish them off, but of course ideally you want that Taurox able to shoot something else down range instead. Thats just me, in the current meta of MSU armies I look at what can effectively kill a unit in one phase without getting charged in the next. Just remember like it was said before, the Scions will be doing it on their own since the Prime only gets one order which is most likely used for his own squad.

[M@verik115]

The thing with scions/stormtroopers/kasrkin is you need to use them as you would use any special forces in real life. 
Put them on the front line and they will fall as easily as any guardsman. 

Their real job is securing an objective and eliminating a small troop concentration in the process. 
I usually run them in a chimera with either plasmas or volley guns, but a taurox should work too (ive never bought the model so I cannot comment on that). 
Use them to dislodge an enemy unit and steal an objective mid to late game and you will see them shine. 
Use them as frontline troops, and they will be lucky to survive 1 round. 

[duz_]

If you want to make use of their HSLGs then you should really run them as MTs for the sniper order.

6 to hit means precision shot to snipe squad specialists, only need 4s to wound and 6s are AP.

 

I'd keep them as specialist allies. Take a command squad with either 4 plasma or melta and maybe 6 or 7 man squad and DS them together. The CCS can order the HSLG squad and then his unit will have to proceed without orders. (Would be nice if their commander got to issue 2 a turn!)

 

I'm reluctant to make my squads of scions larger than 5 or 6 because I usually deep strike super aggressively and its always rewarding to see the surprise in my opponents face when they scatter they usually don't mishap because they take up such a small space I place them usually an 1" from harm.

 

If I were you I'd try and get a few proxy games in if you haven't bought the models yet to see what you really want to do with them.

I know some people like their formations but I find them quite expensive to run for average once off bonuses.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

A couple squads of 5-8 scions can ruin an MSU army's day. That said, not everyone runs MSU, so you may have to change gears if you find that your scion MSU killer is going to be useless.

[Meps]

Thank you everybody some very useful input.

 

It is more than enough for me to go off. Gonna mix it up a bit and see if I prefer deep striking some MT command squads for MT orders or running up PCS units in chimeras for FRF.

[Emicus]

Have a look at the Start Collecting box/formation Hellrain Brigade (I think?)! It allows you to sample a bit of everything scions have to offer and get reinforcement's for free.

 

Excellent for suicide melta:)

[WarriorFish]

It's a great value box and the Hellrain formation is a nice way to run them (with a few extras).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Thank you everybody some very useful input.

 

It is more than enough for me to go off. Gonna mix it up a bit and see if I prefer deep striking some MT command squads for MT orders or running up PCS units in chimeras for FRF.

Remember that you can only use MT orders if you run your MT from their own codex. So that means allies, which will essentially necessitate you getting the start collecting box. Now, the Hellrain Brigade Formation is a C:MT formation so if you run that, you can indeed get the MT orders. Though through all the theoryhammer Ive been doing on it, suggests that you should bury the commissar in the MTCS and stick them in the taurox prime that the formation requires, and hide them in a corner, or put them in reserves (since the commissar only needs to be alive, not on the table). Then you get unlimited scion squads (at least until you run out of turns). That's potentially 6 squads of Scions for the price of one (assuming they die every turn).

[sebs_evo7]

Could the commissar leave the mt command squad and join a blob squad of guard?

[Meps]

Hes treated as a fully independent character i think so that should be fine. As only the commissar needs to be alive it seems a waste of the points to put them in the Taurox prime and hide it in a corner and its an aggressive vehicle by nature.

 

I was unsure if the 100+ point tax for the prime and commissar was worth it

[WarriorFish]

Yes, he's an IC as Meps said so he can go where you like - but keeping him cheap and alive is best. That's where the Taurox can come in handy, though it could be good for scooting the CS around. Getting the most out of the Hellrain rules is the best use, so build with that in mind :)

[Inquisitor Fox]

An allied Inquisitor, 3 Acolytes (bare bones) and a Land Raider transport for the Acolytes is an excellent vehicle for hiding a Commissar.  Just sayin' :)

[zero88]

You can also use the Taurox Prime to move a squad of AM veterans around as well to take objectives faster.. you just can't start the game with them embarked. Then you can use the MTCS as an enhanced efficiency melts/plasma elimination unit, since they can essentially twin link their weapons. Then of course the Commissar is hiding out in a blob somewhere ;)

[WarriorFish]

That's a nice idea zero :tu:

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Indeed. Good use of Allies. I also agree with Inquisitor Fox. Attaching the hellrain commissar to a henchmen warband and plunking them in a big AV14 box is a good idea. I'd use a few more than 3 acolytes though, since you'll have to start outside the vehicle (since battle brothers can no longer deploy inside each other's vehicles, if you go by the FAQ).

 

I really hate some of the things that GW decided for this FAQ nonsense... Most of it is helpful, some of it is garbage...

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've actually been considering attaching said Commissar to my melee warband (OX Inq w/ full grenade package, 5 DCAs, 2 Crusaders, Priest, then the Commissar) in a Land Raider :)  That's just a lot of points, so not sure if most people would want to free the space.  It'd work though!

[shandwen]

It does seem like a waste to leave the command squad bare-bones, but I advocate for doing that. The target priority for your enemy will be highly effected by what weapons the squad has, and also the order potential. Having both in one squad means it will die as soon as it appears.

[Emicus]

But it will also have a greater opportunity to murdinate the enemy so he cannot retaliate.

 

Being aware that if the opponents shoot scions (command) or scions (troops) the exact same number of models would die - it might be better to have less enemies' shooting you from the get go.

 

Especially if you run the Hellrain, as the opponent will loathe to kill units that recycle.