New to Astra Millitarum, Need Advice

[Grimpoppet]

Between trading off an army, and picking up some lots on the cheap, I have stepped into the world of Astra Millitarum. The type of army I am looking to eventually play is a mix of Blob and Artillery Vehicles/Tanks. But, in the name of Money, I am beginning with the vehicles, its cheaper.

 

What I have so far:

 

7 Chimeras

4 Vendettas (the triple lascannon flyer)

3 Battle Cannon Lemans

3 Punisher Lemans

1 Demonlisher Leman

1 Executioner

1 Leman with no main gun (Has turret, and will be easy to fit a gun into the turret)

1 Hell hound

2 Hydras

3 Basilisks

A few assorted Heavy Weapon Teams

Around 30-40 Guardsman

A base Company Command Squad

 

I am *likely* picking up 1-2 Baneblades, but that remains to be seen.

 

So, with Vehicle Artillery Gun Line in mind, what should I look to purchase? Are there any standard lists I could be directed to as examples?

 

I particularly like the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company formation from the Cadia Supplement, and have heard good things about it from other guard players.

[WarriorFish]

Welcome to the Guard! :D As this is more of a collection question than army list I'm moving it to the barracks proper, you'll also get more responses

You have a healthy number of vehicles which is great, you can do a lot with that already especially if you look to an Armoured Company list (FW). If you're talking artillery no Guard army is complete without a couple of Wyverns to rain death on infantry. Manticore and Deathstrike are fun, but not all that brilliant at the moment unfortunately. An artillery company of this sort of size could do with a few more troopers to help protect them, have you thought about Veterans?

Last but not least what colour scheme are your Guard in, do you have some pictures to share? :)

[Grimpoppet]

Thanks for the move! Still not overly familiar with B&C, to be honest.

 

I was certainly looking into a couple wyverns, and if I go the route of one or two Emperor's Wrath Artillery Companies, I will need to play either 1-2 Manticores or Deathstrikes. I assume the manticore is more consistent?

 

Vets in Chimeras seem to often be the way to go from what I have heard, but conscript blobs seem like they would be more bodies to hide behind. (Don't have the models to field that, however)

 

Color scheme is currently "assorted due to the nature of second hand XD

Eventually, I intend to do likely a Cadian Green for the army.

[WarriorFish]

If you have any questions on the B&C a mod is only a PM away :tu:

 

The Manticore is more consistent yes, but is mostly limited to stripping hull points against armour unfortunately but it can rain merry hell down on infantry. It's not so bad, let down by the points cost as it could do with being cheaper. Deathstrike is for fun I think, it can hit hard and will attract a lot of attention but that's pretty much all you can guarantee :P

 

Vets can take many builds, mounted and making use of their BS4 and up to three special weapons is popular because we don't have many reliable delivery methods for such things. You can build them to sit back and hold objectives/support too, as you can field a Vet squad pretty cheap if you want :)

 

The Cadian scheme is cool, and you may be surprised to find it's not that popular unlike the other "poster boys" for armies - most Guard are DIY regiments. Are you looking to strip your models before painting? We do love a WIP topic here in the barracks! :D

[librisrouge]

Everything WarriorFist said so far is spot on. I'd like to second your observation of the usefulness of conscript squads. They're the best chump-blockers in the game, imo, and a real asset to IG. However, as you've also noted, they're body intensive (I collected for over ten years before I had the manpower to really try them out but sweet, sweet tanks distracted me along the way.)

[Grimpoppet]

Will probably strip, the models I am getting second hand are a mix of airbrushed (though the current scheme is well painted, so feelsbadman) and partially stripped with platic/glue texture reaidue remaining.

 

The army I am looking to eventually run is mostly an inside joke with friends, but it invloves 6 50 man blobs.

 

Thats a few years away, but I intend to paint it as "The Red Horde." (Catachan Conscripts and Vostoryan Infantry, Gold Hammer-Sickle on a Red Field)

 

Tanks and my current cadian infantry will just do a cadian paint scheme however.

 

As far as my first army with models in the OP, looking to use vets and chimeras as cover and blockage for my tanks. Just curious on how many of what, which models are mostly nuub traps, that kind of thing.

 

Also, WarrioirFist, I don't really have any forge world, for any of my armies (cost) and am unfamiliar with the rules - whats an armoured company?

[WarriorFish]

It's a bit of an old FW list, but lets you field tank armies which is fun - doesn't even require you to use FW models either, just GW ones :)

[Grimpoppet]

Oh thats pretty cool. Which volume is it in?

 

Edit: changed op - the flyers I am getting are Vendettas, with the 3 twin-linked lascannons each

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Oh thats pretty cool. Which volume is it in?

Imperial Armour Volume 1, Second Edition is the most current. It's a list I particularly enjoy running, since it opens up a whole host of options. Company command tanks, commissar tanks, leman russ tanks as troops. The Command and Commissar tanks can take specialty shells on a few variants of the Russ (the Conqueror, Battle Tank, and Vanquisher I believe).

 

I particularly like the Vanquisher for command and Commissar Tanks, as their BS4 gives them greater probability to hit (couple with the coaxial heavy stubber, to make it more accurate). All vanquishers can take coaxial guns, either a heavy stubber (always take), or a storm bolter (don't bother). The benefit that the coax weapon gives you is as long as you fire it first, and score at least one hit, your main gun becomes twin linked. Additionally the Vanquisher can take Beasthunter Shells, which trade the Vanquisher's armourbane for blast and instant death. I have used it to great effect, one shotting riptides and tomb stalkers. You can still fire the normal vanquisher shot too.

 

Another Benefit the Armored Battlegroup gives you; your vets can be taken as a 5 man squad, with 2 special weapons and a heavy weapon team, and they have tank hunters. Min squad with 2 meltaguns, and a missile launcher in the centaur is vicious, since the centaur is open topped so everyone can shoot out. You don't have centaurs, I know, I'm just throwing that out there in case you were interested. ABG vets lack the 3rd Special weapon that standard C:AM vets get, but like I said, they have tank hunter. You can re-roll armor pen on enemy tanks. Re-rollable melta armor pen is nice...

 

Using the Hydras from the ABG list is also great, because, unlike their C:AM cousins, they ignore jink. Flyers and skimmers will wither under fire from an ABG Hydra. Unfortunately you'll only be able to run 3 of your vendettas (ABG has very limited flyer support), unless you decide to use a Flyer wing.

 

There is always the alternative of running Death Korps of Krieg rules from either the Siege of Vraks, or Imperial Armour Volume 12. WS4 Guard are kinda fun, and they too are mechanized, and can roll out tons of tanks, not as many as the ABG list can, but still a respectable amount of tanks (that can make your artillery more accurate).

 

You've got options with Forge World rules. I think those are much more fun anyway, since C:AM can be rather bland.

[Grimpoppet]

I am thinking I might pick up Imperial Armor Volume 1 then, a group in my area are about to put in a FW order, what with a good exchange rate with britain right now.

 

Is there a bit I need tonorder for coaxial? What about the instant death shells? Those both seem like the main thing.

 

Do command and commisar tanks have special models that I need to get, or is it more tell my opponent this leman is a command tank?

[Grimpoppet]

So I looked over most of IA V1 2ndEd....

 

It looks pretty out of date. Does it have an FAQ ir anything?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Is there a bit I need tonorder for coaxial? What about the instant death shells? Those both seem like the main thing.

Technically no, because you could model it on using a spare stubber barrel. FW does make a Turret that has the stubber molded in. Though that's a costly proposition. You could also model it with a paperclip, and a bit of green stuff (Coax guns go along side the main gun so it's a pretty easy mod). As for the ID shells, no special bits are needed, as those would be carried in the tank's ammo magazine.

 

 

Do command and commisar tanks have special models that I need to get, or is it more tell my opponent this leman is a command tank?

They do not have specific models, though I might recommend adding some antennae and such (like from a command upgrade sprue or chimera kit) to make it look like it's been specially fitted for command and control. The Commissar tank, should Ideally have the tank commissar model, whcih essentially is a commissar that's missing his legs, and goes in the hatch on a tank.

 

Personally, I don't believe that either of these are strictly necessary, although my command tank will have the command upgrade sprue bits attached (when I build it), and my tank commander will be peeking out of the hatch, not fully out like every other commander, just his head poking out (unless that proves difficult). I'm not a big fan of the idea that my tank commanders would be hanging half out of their tank where they could get blown to bits by an errant boltgun round (I have the same qualms about Helmetless marines).

 

 

So I looked over most of IA V1 2ndEd....

 

It looks pretty out of date. Does it have an FAQ ir anything?

There may be an FAQ, but remember that the second edition books brought the IA stuff into 6th edition (for most of which the guard used the old 5th ed book). The Points costs are a bit higher overall, but it's by far and away the best way to field lots of tanks. Also, believe me, it's still viable.

[Grimpoppet]

Do I have to play Armoured Company to have access to Command Tanks, Commisar Tanks, the upgrades suchas those mentioned above, etc?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Unfortunately the official answer is yes. Unofficially, if you're like me and you homebrew rules, you can do whatever, as long as your opponent is ok with it.

 

Seriously, though, the Armoured Battle Group is worth playing, especially with as many tanks as you have, and as few infantry as you have. It is by far the best Armored list out there, as it's only real competition is from the Cadian Battle Group.

 

The CBG detachment from Warzone Damocles Mont'Ka, is pretty much poop and I don't recommend you use it.

[duz_]

You can always just take an IG CAD for troops and the (at least from what I understand) Take an ABG allied detachment or CAD for the armoured goodness.

[WarriorFish]

With allies that's the best way to have your cake and eat it, with the associated costs of units (i.e. Leman Russ tanks) the limitations on the allied FOC aren't a big deal with the ABG. You can get your HQ tank in, couple of Troop ones and an Elite and that should set you up neatly. Alternatively thanks to the Platoon system you could easily take the IG codex as the ally and have more than you'd need available if you were after infantry to protect your armour, which is likely the case. Plus with the other slots available you could easily add in a bit more if you wanted :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Duz_ and WarriorFish make excellent points about taking allies. While strictly speaking the Armored Battlegroup is the only way to get those tanks, you can take them as an ally to any other Imperial Guard list (i.e. Elysians from IA3.2, Elysian D99 from IA4.2, or Death Korps of Krieg from either IA12 or Siege of Vraks, or Codex: Astra Militarum).

 

I have an affinity for flyers and combined arms, so I tend to want to take the Armored Battlegroup and Elysians as allies. I usually run a Dual CAD for that, since I want at least 3 tanks, I an simply adjust what I want in either CAD to fit what I want the list to do.

 

7th edition is the edition of doing what you want, so GW makes it pretty easy. Just remember that the forgeworld lists are typically stronger than our base codex, and that our base codex is a fairly weak book. This is because of a couple of things: First, GW has no idea how to play the Guard, and second is that it's an older book.

 

I'm just giving you fair warning, that you'll see some resounding defeats before you get the hang of the army. I tell you this so you'll be prepared, because it's a really fun army to play.

[Grimpoppet]

Well, the over priced tanks, and the lack of punishers from what I have seen, are what is steering me off the Armoured Company, and onto the Cadian Battle Group.

 

If I go CBG, would probably try to run an emperors fist core and a emperors wrath and then fill the rest of the detachment with upgrades + command squads with masters of ordnance

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You can take punishers in the armored battlegroup. Not as command tanks or commissar tanks, but you can take them as troops. Look at the Leman Russ Siege Tank Squadron. It's there, along with the executioner and demolisher. The Punisher spits out enough shots to counter its BS3, so I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, your command and commissar tanks are going to be taking vanquishers anyway to make best use of that BS4, and Beasthunter shells.

 

Yes the tanks are overpriced, but not by much. If anything C:AM undercosts our tanks.

 

I would steer clear of the Cadian Battlegroup. It's a mediocre detachment at best, dreadful at worst. It did nothing to help C:AM's lack of power in the current meta. The detachment's command benefits only help infantry, and the whole thing is absolutely unplayable under 1000 points. It's only got a handful of builds to be useful at 1850-2000 points, and is absolutely cumbersome over 2k. The Infantry company core formation is bare minimum 173 models, and you can't take dedicated transports. You have to move all 173 of those models by hand. It also clocks in at 1005 or so points minimum, and you have to figure on another 60 or so minimum for the command section you have to take. The Armored Company isn't much better, requiring 5 tanks, and an engineseer, whom you'll need to buy a trojan so he can keep up, otherwise you sink him in a command squad and you lose whatever benefits he provided. You'll also need infantry to screen for those tanks, so you'll look to the vet formation, only it's another whopping 600 some points, minimum. Now you're looking at around 1400-1500 points, with a little leftover for something. Or you'll look to an infantry platoon, but only the Vets have objective secured, so you won't take the infantry platoon because, while they're cheap, they don't superscore, so they're pointless.

 

The whole detachment is a mess, and proves, much to our collective dismay, that Games Workshop has no clue how to play The Imperial Guard. The Relics are not bad, some of the formations are not bad (the Emperor's Spear and Emperor's Wrath might work wonderfully for you), but the way the whole thing is put together, smacks of it being rushed and written by committee.

 

The Armored Battlegroup will give you everything you want, plus more, and the flexibility to build your list to suit your playstyle, rather that shoehorning you into a style that doesn't work for you.

[Grimpoppet]

I don't know, I do kind of like many of the Cadia Formations, primarily the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company, the Emperor's Fist isn't bad in 1850 games where it can fit.

 

While I agree both that the lack of Infantry mix is an issue, and that its hard to run at any low end point total, the better priced tanks and the lack of taxes are enough for me to consider at least playing it a few games. Main things I would want from FW are just the coaxial stubbers and the artillery pieces.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Go ahead and try the CBG detachment. You may like it, and it may work for your playstyle. I'm just trying to give you fair warning that it's not a powerful dteachment, and that, if confronted by other detachments in the same style (i.e. from C:TE, C:SM, C:Nec, C:EC, or any of their supplements) you'll ikely find it woefully lacking power.

 

I like some of the less often played things in the codex, because I go for unorthodox tactics and strategies compared to most Guard players (I play fast, mobile, and aggressive elite armies). The CBG doesn't allow me to do that in a cost effective way, and most players seem to feel that way as well.

 

I just think it was a poorly designed detachment. GW had an opportunity to really boost IG sales with a good detachment that made the army playable against the decurion meta, but they missed the mark.

[Grimpoppet]

That the detachment is comparitively underpowered is certainly true. The Angels Of Death supplement in particular is insane.