Alternate Legion Rules!

[Kais Klip]

Think you could do better than our lord and master Bligh? Sour about the rules and homebrewed your own ones? Or do you just have nifty ideas or themes never realised once the books came out?

 

Given some of the less... encouraging legion rules out there (you know which ones), lets hear your alternates!

 

Yes, the core legion update definitely filled out some holes (+1 I for EC, etc) but I for one always feel that Forge World took an easy way out with some of the direct bonuses given to other legions, and while the First Legion's bonus to CCW with swords is fluffy and suitably crunchy, the Blood Angels plus-one-to-wound seems like sliiightly too much without a suitable con present.

 

Look at the Night Lords or White Scars, you'd struggle to find someone unhappy with them, fluffwise or crunchwise, but it seems the same inspiration is absent in other legions, and a policy of simply "Just throw a USR on there" seems to be present on many others.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to see Ultramarines Breachers getting some love. Like a Hammer of Wrath attack per turn to represent hammering with shields.

[Slips]

I'd like to see Ultramarines Breachers getting some love. Like a Hammer of Wrath attack per turn to represent hammering with shields.

I mean, you could just play Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fists because thats the bonus we get for running it.

[Noserenda]

I thought Stone Gauntlet was +1 T? Otherwise someone round here has some 'splainin to do...

 

Though thatd be a better idea for breachers in general rather than any one legion ;)

[IronDrake28]

Mmm...so would Iron Hands Breachers in a Stone Gauntlet be T5 and -1S to incoming fire? Effectively T6? :O

[Slips]

I thought Stone Gauntlet was +1 T? Otherwise someone round here has some 'splainin to do... Though thatd be a better idea for breachers in general rather than any one legion

Its +1T but the bonus disappears if we charge. If we do charge, we get HoW.

Read the RoW, yo :p

[Reyner]

Mmm...so would Iron Hands Breachers in a Stone Gauntlet be T5 and -1S to incoming fire? Effectively T6?

Replace Breachers with Immortals for extra shiggles.

[helterskelter]

Mmm...so would Iron Hands Breachers in a Stone Gauntlet be T5 and -1S to incoming fire? Effectively T6?

Replace Breachers with Immortals for extra shiggles.

Almost literally immortal. Heh.

[Gabriel Santar]

Not Legion-specific, but I find it constantly frustrating that Terminators can't purchase Teleport Transponders as a generic upgrade. Make them free for Night Lords and Fists (but seriously, Fists? Over some of the other Legions?) if you must, but clearly every Legion has the capability to teleport its Termies due to Orbital Assault. I don't want to have to buy a Spartan or Dreadclaw for every single unit to ensure they get where they need to be, and its particularly frustrating for Legions like the Ravens or Blood Angels.

[Legatus]

A more "lore friendly" army list for the Ultramarines Legion might have looked something like this:

 

 

 

- ULTRAMARINES LEGION RULES -

 

Advantageous Rule ("Strategists"): +1 on the roll who choses deployment, +1 to seize initiative, +1 to reserve rolls. All Ultramarines units have the 'Combat Squads" special rule.

 

Morale Rule: And They Shall Know No Fear!

 

Disadvantageous Rule: The Ultramarines do not use 'Legion Destroyer Squads', 'Legion Breacher Siege Squads', 'Legion Tactical Support Squads' and 'Legion Seeker Squads'.

 

 

- ULTRAMARINES SPECIAL UNITS -

 

Codex Tactical Squad: 10 men, one can get a special weapon and one can get a heavy weapon. ==> Replaces 'Legion Tactical Squad'

 

Codex Assault Squad: Can alternatively be fielded without jump packs at a discount. ==> Replaces 'Legion Assault Squad'

 

Codex Devastator Squad: Only 4 Marines get a heavy weapon, but it can be a different heavy weapon for each one. ==> Replaces 'Legion Heavy Support Squad'

 

 

 

Not really stronger. Probably even much weaker. But lore accuracy has allways been more important to me.

 

The list above is still not exactly the same as the 40K Codex army list. and neither should it be, since the 30K armies use some equipment that would be phased out or lost later, and lack other equipment that was not yet fully developed. They also use some super heavy vehicles that later Chapters do not use, probably due to the separation of the different military branches (Army, Navy, Mechanicus, Marines, etc.), so I left those in. But over all, especially in the formation of the infantry units, the Ultramarines Legion at the end of the Great Crusade should already be very similar to the later Chapters that would be established fully only a few years from then.

[Slips]

^^^^ a few things:

 

Codex Devastator Squad; essentially what the Iron Warriors Iron Havocs do but in a smaller size. Youve already got their Iron Tyrants...

 

Codex Assault Marine Squad: look into the free option for tactical marines to swap their Bolter for a Chainsword and Bolt Pistol.

 

And They Shall Know No Fear is not in 30k because its overpowered and singlehandedly one of the strongest rules in the game. For the sake of balance, no.

[IronDrake28]

The codex wasn't even written yet...and no Breachers? D: They're the fluffiest of the Ultramarines. :'(

[Legatus]

Codex Devastator Squad; essentially what the Iron Warriors Iron Havocs do but in a smaller size. Youve already got their Iron Tyrants...

 

Not in this army list, they don't. But maybe I should have been more clear in that the above army list is supposed to replace the one from Tempest entirely, and not be in addition to that. So the Ultramarines Legion would get no Invictarus Suzerain, no Locutarus Storm Squad, and no Fulmentarus Terminators. (Also no 'Interlocking Tactics' and 'Rigid Chain of Command'.) I thought that was a given, but I should have been more specific.

The Ultramarines Legion would use such a Devastator squad because only a few years later Guilliman will write in his Codex that that is how Space Marine heavy support squads should be organised. Perhaps he got that from Perturabo, who knows, but he would have come to that conclusion over the 200 years of the Great Crusade, and not just suddenly last minute after the Heresy. The Ultramarines unit structure at the time of the Heresy should already have developed into a form very similar to what Roboute Guilliman will in only a few years finalise as the recommended structure for Space Marines organisation. It is not as if it will take 10,000 years for that structure to emerge. Guilliman is literally just about to establish that structure, and it will be used from that point on.

 

Same issue with the Codex Assault Marines. When Guilliman writes the Codex he will not have Tactial squads have close combat weapons, but will have Assault Squads alternatively without jump packs.

 

I have to admit I am not that familiar with the 30K meta, so I couldn't really gauge what kind of an impact ATSKNF would have. I would have thought removing about half of the infantry units would be a significant disadvantage, as well as having no "combat" advantage in their rules. Mind the Ultramarines above will not use 20 man Tactical squads or 10 missile launcher support squads, so while their units can not be run off, it would almost entirely be smaller units with less powerful weaponry. I don't think the morale rule from Tempest is that bad as a precursor of ATSKNF, and it would work as their morale rule as well, but I thought while I am already introducing the later "Codex" units I could also go with full ATSKNF.

[Reyner]

The current 40k Honour Guard are pretty similar to the Suzerain to be fair they have only lost their shields and have unique weapon rules for their axes which the 40k version used to have a while ago didn't they? The Storm Squad aren't too far away from being a Vanguard Assault Squad either.

[Legatus]

That could be argued, even though there are a few notable differences (Locutarus Marines are not veterans, and Vanguard Veterans are not equipped with "mandatory" power weapons by default), but then I would not exactly call Honour Guard and Vanguard Veterans "lore friendly" either. The Ultramarines in 40K probably got Vanguard Veterans (which previously had been exclusively associated with Blood Angels and Raven Guard) because in the 5th Edition Codex all the other first founding army lists were folded into one single "core" list, which meant several unit choices that the Ultramarines had not previously had were now suddenly all introduced into their army list, with accompanying unit descriptions as if they had allways had them.

The Honour Guard, when they were first introduced, were available exclusively to Ultramarine armies, which makes absolutely no sense. If the Ultramarines use a unit, then that unit is in the Codex Astartes, and if a unit is in the Codex Astartes then every Chapter can use it. At least in the later Edition Marine Codices the Honour Guard were made available to every other Chapter as well.

 

I.e. if I were to rewrite an alternative "lore friendly" Ultramarines army list for 40K (just as here with the Legion army list) that list would not include Honour Guard or Vanguard Veterans.

[Marshal Rohr]

To build on what Cpt. Idaho said, it would be cool if breachers squads could adopt formations in ZM games. Shields front gives the hammer of wrath attack, some kind of testudo formation give the breachers an invulnerable to templates, and a formation to emphasis a shield wall like +1 to shield invulnerable or something like that.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Please not another ultramarine argument thread

[IronDrake28]

I think this is a good discussion, no one is begin rude. :)

[Charlo]

 

the Blood Angels plus-one-to-wound seems like sliiightly too much without a suitable con present.

 

Cons are that they cannot have vehicle heavy builds, must sweeping advance and cannot go to ground. Which is very fair, consdiering Assault is the least powerful phase of the game.

 

The DA ones are underwhelming, but I think they are going to have the biggest armoury of all legions when we get to them.

 

My wager (as it was when we first saw these) is that the BA/ DA rules will get slightly updated in Book 8 so are on the tamer side for now.

 

Scars though, will (and have been said to be) the last legion to get full attention, so they erred on the side of powerful to keep those players happy for longer. Plus bikes are an inherently powerful unit type anyway!

 

Personally I think all the legion rules have thier place - I think the Salamanders could do with something else though and the DG wouldn't mind one tiny bit of extra help showing resilience.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Iron Hands are turning generic legion without a special rule as FW keeps bringing out Fleshbane and poisoned weapons or just weapons that make the -1S irrelevant. -1 to wound for poison and fleshbane would bring that flavour back. I mean, where's the flesh to poison !?! And DG would still have a better version of it. That or vehicules get extram armour for free. Or something inconsequential like that just to show we pimp our rides. Autosimulacrae for 10 points is murder.

[Confused Word Bearer]

I just wish that Heavy Bolters were good. Especially Shrapnel Rounds. I mean, pinning for free is okay, but against ld8 and 9 majority of the time it's usually not going to do anything. The Iron Havocs feel overcosted to me, but I don't know to balance them. I also think it's odd that they can't take the same options as a regular Heavy Support Squad? No Heavy Flamers, Multimeltas, or Plasma Cannons just seems odd? For a dedicated AT role in the legion, I can understand Heavy Flamers, but not being able to take Multi Meltas just feels weird.

[Kais Klip]

 

 

the Blood Angels plus-one-to-wound seems like sliiightly too much without a suitable con present.

 

Cons are that they cannot have vehicle heavy builds, must sweeping advance and cannot go to ground. Which is very fair, consdiering Assault is the least powerful phase of the game.

 

The DA ones are underwhelming, but I think they are going to have the biggest armoury of all legions when we get to them.

 

My wager (as it was when we first saw these) is that the BA/ DA rules will get slightly updated in Book 8 so are on the tamer side for now.

 

Scars though, will (and have been said to be) the last legion to get full attention, so they erred on the side of powerful to keep those players happy for longer. Plus bikes are an inherently powerful unit type anyway!

 

Personally I think all the legion rules have thier place - I think the Salamanders could do with something else though and the DG wouldn't mind one tiny bit of extra help showing resilience.

 

 

Any ideas how? Thats what we're here for! Personally, given that the Iron Hands shied away from FNP in 30k, I feel like its a perfect opportunity to throw it on a 6+ on the Death Guard, with a stronger bonus post Nurgle. Yes, now we're just throwing USR's on them, but its the one case where it fits. Characters ignoring instant death would sing a similar tune as well, as long as we forget Garro getting KOed by a little witch, so mayhaps thats not too accurate. 

 

Fluff accuracy is what we're going here, and while I know the legion advantages were realistically negligible on any scale smaller than a particular theatre of war, given 40k predilication for condensing everything from firing ranges to movement, I feel like rules with slightly more fluff would have made legion picking a lot more fun, without having to resort to Character special rules. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

Iron Hands are turning generic legion without a special rule as FW keeps bringing out Fleshbane and poisoned weapons or just weapons that make the -1S irrelevant. -1 to wound for poison and fleshbane would bring that flavour back. I mean, where's the flesh to poison !?! And DG would still have a better version of it. That or vehicules get extram armour for free. Or something inconsequential like that just to show we pimp our rides. Autosimulacrae for 10 points is murder.

 

Iron Hands becoming generic? I find that difficult to believe. They have good special equipment, an excellent RoW and their legion rules are just fine, not like there is that much phosphex out there unless your opponent takes phosphex mortars all the time. The only thing about IH that seems mediocre is their legion units, which are hardly bad. 

 

+6 fnp feels pretty appropriate for DG. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

Iron Hands are turning generic legion without a special rule as FW keeps bringing out Fleshbane and poisoned weapons or just weapons that make the -1S irrelevant. -1 to wound for poison and fleshbane would bring that flavour back. I mean, where's the flesh to poison !?! And DG would still have a better version of it. That or vehicules get extram armour for free. Or something inconsequential like that just to show we pimp our rides. Autosimulacrae for 10 points is murder.

 

Iron Hands becoming generic? I find that difficult to believe. They have good special equipment, an excellent RoW and their legion rules are just fine, not like there is that much phosphex out there unless your opponent takes phosphex mortars all the time. The only thing about IH that seems mediocre is their legion units, which are hardly bad. 

 

+6 fnp feels pretty appropriate for DG. 

 

 

Well, at the risk of sounding ranty, let me debunk that disbelief for you.

 

Leviathans, Quad Mortars (which everyone and their uncle Bob has), A whole lot of mechanicum, Lightnings, Medusas make Fleshbane/Poison very prevalent in my meta. The Proliferation of high strength weapons also makes the -1S irrelevant most of the time. Notice the amount of new toys that come out with Strength 7 and 9? I can't the last time that special rule made a difference. It sure did in the early years of the heresy, but ironically, I feel like the old death guard. Ohhhh, SLUDGES BABY!

 

This topic is about legion rules, but let's go down that road for a bit. Orth's gone down in flavour with the Tank Commanders being a thing now, but that's fine. I never complained about the RoW, but honestly it's only great in high points games... You can't really benefit from it because it requires you to get big stompy expensive robots or expensive high armour tanks.

 

We actually don't have any exclusive gear. None. Only things we stretch further than most. Simulacrae is not worth paying for outside of it being free in HotG. The graviton guns are unusable on marines and exlcusive to HotG. For some reason, we forget we have them when we roll out of the armory using a different RoW. Not that they would see more play, but I digress.

 

So we are pretty much pigeon holed into using HotG if you want some snazzy Iron Hand gear, which is just borrowed from the mechanicum. Salamanders and Imperial fists get effectively the same thing as a familiar except they get other goodies too - And even at that, there are only 2 non-HQ models that might want to take it. I personally don't, but that's up to personal taste.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I think the Legion that needs a rework the most is Iron Warriors. Their rules Don't for their fluff. I'd give them:

Warriors of The Trenches: models shot by a unit with this special rule must reroll successful cover saves

Siege Armoury: The 0-1 restriction on Legion Artillery Batteries is lifted.