Alternate Legion Rules!

[Confused Word Bearer]

I think the Legion that needs a rework the most is Iron Warriors. Their rules Don't for their fluff. I'd give them:

Warriors of The Trenches: models shot by a unit with this special rule must reroll successful cover saves

Siege Armoury: The 0-1 restriction on Legion Artillery Batteries is lifted.

I think the Iron Warrior rules are fine/representive of them fluff-wise, though underwhelming. The Siege Armoury bit just feels wrong though, because being able to take ridiculous amounts of Medusas/Basilisks/Whirlwinds just feels wrong. What needs to be buffed are shrapnel bolts, Iron Havocs given a points reduction and models, and the Iron Circle/Domitar-Ferrum given the ability to Deep-Strike, AP3 Bolt Cannons like what the Mechanicum has, and a points reduction.

Because a list that takes as many of them as possible is around 7k points, just for a mandatory HQ, two tac squads, and Pert for the Iron Circle.

 

[Plaguecaster]

Sucks certain legions get cool breacher style veteran units like the UM, IF etc and others don't would be nice if veterans had more options like breacher shields, jump packs etc so you could upgrade them into a more specialised unit so if you were running a full jet pack army or breacher style army and you weren't one of the legions with the legion specific units then your veterans could fill that role

[Slips]

If only Phalanx Warders were a good unit :\

[rendingon1+]

Give immunity to Fear to all legiones. Astartes rolling for fear because some night lord has a head/hand/other body parts nailed to his armour is just dumb.

[helterskelter]

Give immunity to Fear to all legiones. Astartes rolling for fear because some night lord has a head/hand/other body parts nailed to his armour is just dumb.

Yes because making one legions niche redundant is a great way to balance things..

Why not make all marines with helmets immune to blind/night vision/smoke modifiers because all the helmets come with optical filters in the fluff... -_-

[rendingon1+]

yhm. There are solar auxilia and imperial army now. Night lords can scare them.

Besides it's not only Night Lords. The only fear causing models (vs marines) should be the primarchs and LoWs.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Someone lost to night lords recently lol.

[khorneguy]

Give immunity to Fear to all legiones. Astartes rolling for fear because some night lord has a head/hand/other body parts nailed to his armour is just dumb.

Forgeworld actually had some pretty good justifications for why the Legion aren't immune for fear, or even have ATSKNF as a rule. I seem to remember reading something about it about the time Book 1 came out.

 

Basically it boils down to this:

 

- They had ATSKNF during the Crusade,when marines were at the height of their power, unshakable in their purpose, etc

 

- Once the heresy broke out, all the old certainties disappeared and for the first time they were up against something which was on an equal footing with themselves. The very core of what gave them ATSKNF was being challenged, hence they're subject to normal morale rules.

 

There's also the fact that they aren't nesessarily running in terror, just self preservation. They no longer have their faith in Unity allowing them to hold fast and hypno-indoctrination to stop that kind of thing from happening was a post-heresy response to the conflict.

 

- Night Lords cause fear because they've become so damn crazy that they unerve even their fellow Astartes. They've never encountered an Astartes before who's willing to skin a victim and wear that skin as armour decoration, along with the thousand and one ways in which the Night lords like to mess with their victims/enemies/both.

 

The fact that marines have good leadership means they won't fail Fear tests very often, but when they do, it's because Night Lords have pushed even a Transhuman mind that little bit too far.

 

-  Game-wise, they justified it as a design decision to stop very boring games where two lines of marines crunch into each other, neither side backing down until attrition swings the day.

[The Unseen]

IMO, after whichever book that buffed the first 4 releases to bring them up to par with the later ones, most of the legion rules are great, some of the special characters and unique units could use tweaking, but FW pretty much nailed them overall. DA are probably the weakest right now, but someone else said, and I agree, that their armoury is going to make or break them. IW lack a lot of the mechanical bonuses of other legions, but never running away from shooting casualties or being pinned is pretty good, it makes them super consistent, and Pert is a straight beast. And the DG get the same treatment, consistent, and their special equipment is crazy. Rad grenades hurt.

 

Also OP, that +1 to wound has downsides attached? Never being able to go to ground  is a pretty hefty downside in a setting with marine killing templates thrown everywhere. And restrictions on the number of tanks, which are pretty powerful in 30k, is also a bit of a bummer, but since I love infantry lists anyway, its meh to me.

[Charlo]

Yeah, most if not all of the Legion rules are fairly balanced - there are a few corkers, like DA (but I think they will be VERY strong when we see the whole picture etc).

 

Usually, if the rules are a little lacking, the gear makes up for it.

 

I will say that I've never perceived the IH as having nothing going for them, but I can sort of see where you are coming from Wolf-Pack. My argument would be that Ferrus probably always just rolled with a Head of the Gorgon and crushed all before him regardless. Flesh is weak etc etc. Cyber Familiar's alone are rather powerful and you get Autek "The Man" Mor :P Just the extra immunity to small arms is useful, but as you say, the big weapons aren't really affected by your fancy mechano-flesh substitutes.

 

Onto DG - 6+ FNP seems very appropriate. You could go one further and make it just plain +1 to all FNP (so a 6+ base and 4+ with an Apoth) but you would have to replace the poison and fleshbane immunity for this, and even then would be a little too strong perhaps? But even then, perhaps not as the guns in the heresy that cause ID are everywhere. It would certainly encourage a wonderfully fluffy infantry based army (plz).

 

IW are fine. The Ironfire is utter filth and before Siege Tyrants got moved to Heavy they were too mono build anyway. Run the Armored Breakthrough Rite and re-live the Tallarn Massacre. Plus while Primarch's should not be rules patches and a gauge on Legion strength, Perturabo is an army buffing machine. Turn one air-support/ a drop pod army that could all arrive first turn? Insanity.

 

As we seem to be approaching, I think a few of the legions are just a little mono-build right now - but this is only in a sort of cut-throat kind of way or their specific rules not having synergy with other rites, PLUS the specific rites being so damn good and fluffy (Ironfire/ Ravenwing/ 3rd Company Kakaphoni/ 'Zerker Assault).

[Gabriel Santar]

While it would probably be far too complex to implement on unit-wide levels, I do wish that Iron Hands (and all Legions really, but in particularl the X'th) had some measure of customisability in their bionics; bionic arms that increase strength but lower Initiative in combat like that old Black Templar vow, bionic eyes to provide Night Vision, bionic legs for Move Through Cover/Fleet etc. It would help us stand out a little more, especially since we lack special weapons like almost every other Legion.

The Graviton Gun doesn't count.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Funny thing is, Black shields have rules that can reflect very interesting mechanics for Iron Hands, various traits are all things that we could use. The strange xeno tech can be mechanicum experimental weapons, pariah armour can be Isstvan survivors or Key of Hel troops.

[Icarus1138]

Iron Hands should have a tank commander Consul, as that's the style of warfare they're renowned for. I'd also give their characters access to some of the more mundane Mechanicum-only equipment.

 

The Emperor's Children should have the Alpha Legion special rule, since they were the ones that obsessively practiced every style of warfare and then planned ahead for each battle to use whatever tactics would be most appropriate. I'd even give them the "take one of another legion's unit" instead of the AL, since they were famous for taking another legion's specialty and studying it until they mastered it.

 

I'd give the Ultramarines the same rule as the Emperor's Children, except instead of it being chosen before the mission starts I'd have them choose it at the beginning of turn 3. The EC's plan ahead using all the assets and skills at their disposal and then run with that plan, while the Ultramarines get in there following standard procedure, see what they're up against, and then adapt accordingly. 

 

I'd like to see the Sons of Horus have the universal deep strike for Terminators rule. It's interesting that the Ultramarines unquestionably had the biggest influence on the organization of the 40k Chapters, but the SoH seem to have the biggest influence on their chosen tactics. Hit hard, hit fast, hit something important. That's really the only game in town in 40k when you're 100 marines on a mission, and it worked well for the XVIth as well.

I'd like to see the Sons of Horus have the universal deep strike for Terminators rule. It's interesting that the Ultramarines unquestionably had the biggest influence on the organization of the 40k Chapters, but the SoH seem to have the biggest influence on their chosen tactics. Hit hard, hit fast, hit something important. That's really the only game in town in 40k when you're 100 marines on a mission, and it worked well for the XVIth as well.

[rendingon1+]

While it would probably be far too complex to implement on unit-wide levels, I do wish that Iron Hands (and all Legions really, but in particularl the X'th) had some measure of customisability in their bionics; bionic arms that increase strength but lower Initiative in combat like that old Black Templar vow, bionic eyes to provide Night Vision, bionic legs for Move Through Cover/Fleet etc. It would help us stand out a little more, especially since we lack special weapons like almost every other Legion.

The Graviton Gun doesn't count.

Agree. Besides they are forge masters, so I would definitely see something like Jokaero weapon enhancemnt table. Just for one unit mayby but why not.

This and Medusan Zweihanders.

[rendingon1+]

Someone lost to night lords recently lol.

Haha, a draw . And I just realised my opponent gave thropies of judgment to each character and thy are indep only (trust rewarded once again, never going to play with him in the future).

So I change my mind, since thropies are on indeps only there's nothing wrong with them

[Kais Klip]

Iron Hands should have a tank commander Consul, as that's the style of warfare they're renowned for. I'd also give their characters access to some of the more mundane Mechanicum-only equipment.

 

The Emperor's Children should have the Alpha Legion special rule, since they were the ones that obsessively practiced every style of warfare and then planned ahead for each battle to use whatever tactics would be most appropriate. I'd even give them the "take one of another legion's unit" instead of the AL, since they were famous for taking another legion's specialty and studying it until they mastered it.

 

I'd give the Ultramarines the same rule as the Emperor's Children, except instead of it being chosen before the mission starts I'd have them choose it at the beginning of turn 3. The EC's plan ahead using all the assets and skills at their disposal and then run with that plan, while the Ultramarines get in there following standard procedure, see what they're up against, and then adapt accordingly. 

 

I'd like to see the Sons of Horus have the universal deep strike for Terminators rule. It's interesting that the Ultramarines unquestionably had the biggest influence on the organization of the 40k Chapters, but the SoH seem to have the biggest influence on their chosen tactics. Hit hard, hit fast, hit something important. That's really the only game in town in 40k when you're 100 marines on a mission, and it worked well for the XVIth as well.

I'd like to see the Sons of Horus have the universal deep strike for Terminators rule. It's interesting that the Ultramarines unquestionably had the biggest influence on the organization of the 40k Chapters, but the SoH seem to have the biggest influence on their chosen tactics. Hit hard, hit fast, hit something important. That's really the only game in town in 40k when you're 100 marines on a mission, and it worked well for the XVIth as well.

 

I actually agree on the Emperor's Children, the army should have an Echo of Fulgrim's ability, in that they must choose a USR, but where the Alpha Legion chooses it before set up, the EC have to choose it on the list itself, say Move Through Cover (Woods), that way if the board is different to what was expected, a la Murder, they get... murdered. See, with your proposal, the Children and Ultramarines and Alpha Legion all fit together like one larger piece of the puzzle, which is what the legions were supposed to be. 

 

Just before we get over the Night Lord hate, does anyone find it kind of hard to justify their Talent for Murder? In ADB's series they struggle to gang up on a single terminator, while these rules read like Night Lords are super bros all of the sudden, grappling a guy's blade so the others can shiv him. 

 

Maybe I'm just trying to figure out the fluff difference between Sons of Horus and Night Lords in terms of combat. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think a talent for murder represents Night Lords fluff perfectly. They are all about fighting only when they have the advantage, never picking a fair fight. The rule basically represents a one gang ganging up on some other gang, perfect representation of what Night Lords are all about. The difference is with SoH is that they are just straight up brutal fighters who don't focus on ambushes and ganging up on smaller forces. 

 

I find black library novels are often pretty bad inspiration for rules truthfully. Every book is just about making whatever legion it is focused on look like awesome, well anyone they fight sucks. Not that I don't enjoy the novels, just happen to be very biased towards whoever the book is about. 

[Brofist]

I think the Legion that needs a rework the most is Iron Warriors. Their rules Don't for their fluff. I'd give them:

Warriors of The Trenches: models shot by a unit with this special rule must reroll successful cover saves

Siege Armoury: The 0-1 restriction on Legion Artillery Batteries is lifted.

I don't think I'd go that far, but I do support a rework. It would be nice to have rules that were less situational and supported each other a bit better. Like the old DG swamp/forest rule, just give grenade attacks sunder. Warsmiths, like Iron Fathers, also need some tweaks. They don't really bring anything to the table and cost you an extra VP for all the extra effort. Giving them techmarine or seige breaker wargear options might be the easiest solution.

 

I just wish that Heavy Bolters were good. Especially Shrapnel Rounds. I mean, pinning for free is okay, but against ld8 and 9 majority of the time it's usually not going to do anything. The Iron Havocs feel overcosted to me, but I don't know to balance them. I also think it's odd that they can't take the same options as a regular Heavy Support Squad? No Heavy Flamers, Multimeltas, or Plasma Cannons just seems odd? For a dedicated AT role in the legion, I can understand Heavy Flamers, but not being able to take Multi Meltas just feels weird.

Havocs are pretty solid choices these days. Depending on if you consider it a typo, I'd say Tyrants should go back to elites, but never count as compulsory choices in Golg/Pride lists. The unit that needs the most love, besides smiths, are Iron Circle. Just way too many points. FW should revisit all the trap choices and make some adjustments across the board (destroyers, thunderhawk transporters, etc.)

[Kais Klip]

I think a talent for murder represents Night Lords fluff perfectly. They are all about fighting only when they have the advantage, never picking a fair fight. The rule basically represents a one gang ganging up on some other gang, perfect representation of what Night Lords are all about. The difference is with SoH is that they are just straight up brutal fighters who don't focus on ambushes and ganging up on smaller forces. 

 

I find black library novels are often pretty bad inspiration for rules truthfully. Every book is just about making whatever legion it is focused on look like awesome, well anyone they fight sucks. Not that I don't enjoy the novels, just happen to be very biased towards whoever the book is about. 

 

And that makes sense, given that the Night Lords are best at fighting unfair fights, but in that case a slight penalty for fair fights or atleast unfair fights against them would have been fluffy as well, no? 

 

The problem is right now, Night Lords are exemplars of applying overwhelming force at a vulnerable point, tactically they are the best army to play, they are the most rewarding of tactical plays, when the word tactical to me points to many other legions. At the end, 20 marines vs 15 are gonna win anyhow. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

I feel like the negative trait for Night Lords is fine already, and represents their lack of loyalty pretty well. I've had enough units fall back at key times when my warlord died for that rule to be a pain. Truth be told, I'm also just biased as a NL player, I love the newest version of the rules and I don't want to see them change. 

 

I mean if you think other legions rules are not tactical enough, that's on their rules needed a buff not NL needing a debuff. 

[Kais Klip]

No, no I'd never advocate their removal, I played night lords a few times simply because their rules are more FUN to play, as opposed to more passive abilities like infiltrate, for instance.

 

I'm just trying to get the other legions up to the same standard; not the standard of gameplay power, but FUN.

 

Adding a disadvantageous trait to the night lords simply adds to the fun keke ;)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Someone lost to night lords recently lol.

Haha, a draw . And I just realised my opponent gave thropies of judgment to each character and thy are indep only (trust rewarded once again, never going to play with him in the future).

So I change my mind, since thropies are on indeps only there's nothing wrong with them

If he was using horror cult, trophies can be on every unit, if he was using curze then every unit has fear.

I think a talent for murder represents Night Lords fluff perfectly. They are all about fighting only when they have the advantage, never picking a fair fight. The rule basically represents a one gang ganging up on some other gang, perfect representation of what Night Lords are all about. The difference is with SoH is that they are just straight up brutal fighters who don't focus on ambushes and ganging up on smaller forces.

I find black library novels are often pretty bad inspiration for rules truthfully. Every book is just about making whatever legion it is focused on look like awesome, well anyone they fight sucks. Not that I don't enjoy the novels, just happen to be very biased towards whoever the book is about.

And that makes sense, given that the Night Lords are best at fighting unfair fights, but in that case a slight penalty for fair fights or atleast unfair fights against them would have been fluffy as well, no?

The problem is right now, Night Lords are exemplars of applying overwhelming force at a vulnerable point, tactically they are the best army to play, they are the most rewarding of tactical plays, when the word tactical to me points to many other legions. At the end, 20 marines vs 15 are gonna win anyhow.

They're for sure not the most tactical army. Charging something with a larger unit is very much not on the high end of tactical thinking. Deepstriking terminators is a tactic unavailable to most other armies, but that alone doesn't push them into the most tactical list. They're perhaps the strongest assault army, but that's something else entirely.

Raven Guard and Alpha Legion are the most tactical legions out there.

Right off the bat, Infiltrate is one of the most powerful USRs, which allows for massive flexibility in terms of denying/setting up LOS, counter deploying strong units, setting up alpha strikes and unlocking outflank for even more options. Raven Guard supplement this with enhanced mobility via Fleet, while Alpha Legion can change USRs depending on matchup, mission and deployment.

With Primarchs they become even stronger. Corax is literally the most tactical primarch in the game, and on top of that grants Acute Senses and auto 6 on Run moves. Raven guard have a staggering amount of tactical maneuverability with Corax on the field. Alpharius allows for even more counter deployment options since he can steal on a 4+ and grants outflankers bonus move and the whole reserve shenanigans.

Movement and positioning are the most important part of the game and are the areas where player skill matters the most.

[Kais Klip]

Right but movement and positioning are a means to an end. Short of objectives, you actually need to do something once you get somewhere, and A Talent for Murder gives you by far the most efficient use of force; 11 Night Lords will chew up 10 Astartes in the fastest time with the fewest of casualties, short of EC combat resolution shenanigans. Faster than World Eaters, faster than Blood Angels, who should be the definitions of chew-ups. And this was before the update which added on a bonus to hit now as well, so now if you mathhammer it out you need a whole ton of attacks just to equalise your fight against some Night Lord scrubs. Its the same scenario where Hatred is always better to have than a bonus to attacks, except in this case they got a bonus in two combat resolution phases as opposed to one; to hit and to wound. Throne help you if they charge you out of the dark, cause then you're gonna have to have lots of boys with you to make sure you have some left when its time to crump them back.

 

I'm not complaining, it's funny how Sigismund turns into a little bitch when a squad of night lords can just shiv him.

 

The Night Lords as they are now reward tactical play the most, balance should say that they should punish tactical :cuss ups the most as well, which in this case would be getting yourself into an even fight.

 

An interesting point is that the Word Bearers/Salamanders are the exact opposite of that; they are best at weathering your tactical :cuss ups so you can get some more guys in a brawl/firefight to even out the engagement, thus it is they who can be said to be the hard counters to Night Lords.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It gives you the most efficient use of force in melee. I agree that the payout is very high for charging an outnumbered unit, but that is the result of tactics; Talent for Murder doesn't create any additional tactical depth, it's simply a reward for being good with pre-existing tactics.  

 

You say you actually need to do something once you're in position; both Raven Guard and Alpha Legion are known for their alpha strike based off Infiltrate. Who cares about melee bonuses when you can just blow them away with shooting? Mor Deythan in rhinos, support squads/seekers/vets in pods in a Decap Strike list, Dreads in pods with Dynat, vets/plasma support with Alpharius. There's more combinations of things obviously, but all of them are very very good at killing their targets.

 

The more movement you have, the more options you have, the more tactics can be applied. 

 

Legion rule wise, salamanders are one of the worst. Flamers are trap weapons and they suck at getting into melee, as well as having below average maneuverability. Pyroclasts are terrible, as are their rites of war. The big issue is that they're a supremely short ranged army that gets worse at moving the better you make their short range, and on top of that they don't want to be in combat, except with firedrakes. Being resistent to fear and having hard to kill characters isn't a hard counter.

 

Word Bearers are much different, since you can spam psykers and cheese people out with daemons and transfigured Lorgar. Base rules? Fine for sticking on objectives, poor for getting Night Lorded unless you have a counter charge unit right there ready to go. You want combats over in the opponents turn so you can shoot their dudes or move your own.

 

A hard counter is something that deters a unit/army from doing what it excels at. Suzerains are hard counters to Night Raptors for example. There is no specific hard counter to any Legion, since no legion has to be built a specific way. You could build to counter a Night Lord force who uses a lot of melee combat and has Talent for Murder carry the day, only to lose to a Night Lord force that built gunline. 

[Terminus]

In a rare instance of accord, I agree with Skimask on all points here.

 

Inductii and World Eaters in general eat up Night Lords, talent for murder or not. S6 reroll 1s to wound, rage and hatred > +1 to hit/wound if outnumbering and +1I if night fighting. UM Suzerain or IF Templar Brethren can make mincemeat of Terror Marines and Assault Troops, and Blood Angels are almost as good in melee without having to outnumber and they haven't even gotten their full rules yet.  Night Lords are quite potent in melee, but they are one contender among many. 

 

Snakes and Ravens are the most tactical options among the Legions due to deployment flexibility, while Sons of Horus are the best overall at CQB.

 

Salamanders and Death Guard have the weakest Legion rules, but the latter have great uniques and equipment. Salamanders' claim to fame is having the toughest Primarch, Praetors, and Terminators. I would probably say they are the "weakest", but it's not by much. The Legions are about as well balanced as can be expected, it's just that almost all power-armored unique units suck after the cost reduction to core units.

 

Give immunity to Fear to all legiones. Astartes rolling for fear because some night lord has a head/hand/other body parts nailed to his armour is just dumb.

Please keep your 40K out of my 30K, k thx.