[HH1.0] Legio Custodes Tactica

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you hide medusas, you shoot and have full scatter, so there is still decent chance that it will go off the mark. And he can still jink, so it's not that easy to kill it. Same with vindicators,except you will be probably hitting front flare shield. And maybe you won't be able to hide all of your medusas and vindicators...

grav rapiers are 1 shot, and he can jink, so 3 of them will do maybe 1-2 hp of single transport.

Lance levi is nice if you wanna drop pod him, and has to kill 3 transports to earn his points back, will he? His lance is ignored for lance rule since transports have ceramite, and there is also jink, os it's not like you have guarantee to kill it. If you don't drop pod him, good luck with him.

Lightning also has worse chance to kill this transport than spartan, since you are bs4 instead of 5, and he jinks and simply ignores half of your hits, you also have to kill almost 2 transports to earn your point back.

 

They are not unkilable, thing is, you have to pour so much fire power to even kill one, that's what's the problem. Because with jink,flare shield, good armors,ceramite they more survivable than a lot of stuff, and yet cost quite little for all that.

 

 

Nuncio Voxes???

 

A battery of rapiers also forces 3 instances of dangerous terrain which adds up to a 51% chance to immobilize those transports. Thats fantastic.

 

Melta lance doesn't have lance. it also doesn't need the melta rule at str 9 vs AV 12 or 11.

 

Lightning on average disables a transport.

 

I think the big thing you're missing is that an immobilized/dead transport isn't just the points of the transport, its that the unit inside now has to footslog for the rest of the game, which can take them out of the fight. You, in effect, get the points for the unit and the transport.

[Withershadow]

@Skimask: it's loathesome because it is gaming the system rather than playing the game. It was one of the most complained about aspects of the previous editions, and GW has tried to curb its use at every opportunity. A ridiculous mosh pit of a bunch of guys jumping all over each other to catch bullets is not intended by the game. It's loathsome in the sense of being a clearly unintended abuse of mechanics, like the old pivot to gain extra movement tricks. The rules of the game are designed to be an abstraction to help you construct a narrative, it's not your taxes where you utilize every loophole and vulnerability to get ahead.

 

Your counter examples are ludicrous, a machine spirit is an upgrade you pay points for and lets you shoot ONE weapon. It makes sense that advanced cogitators can compensate for some rough riding. Your Cirque de Soleil bullet catching acrobatics are not even in the same universe.

 

You seem to be advocating that it's okay for a list to be unbeatable without tailoring against it. You can most certainly build take-all-comer Legion list that can handle take-all-comer Auxilia or Mechanicum or Militia lists, your assertion is simply false on its face.

 

Thank you to the poster that pointed out the recent FAQ that yet again tries to prevent this "tactic" from being feasible. Although the door is still open to shuffling wounded models around to play with distances during movement, at least that makes sense (wounded soldiers move towards the back and fresher troops take up the front lines).

 

Anyway, the jury is still out on whether Custodes are truly broken, but they do have some serious advantages from a pure cost analysis perspective. Some open discussion and battle reports will definitely to a long way.

 

I reject wholesale however the argument that list tailoring is okay and should be mandatory when facing the Bananas of Doom, which is essentially what you are saying.

[Runefyre]

Considering how well I roll when I play, I'll probably lose even with custodes

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Skimask: it's loathesome because it is gaming the system rather than playing the game. It was one of the most complained about aspects of the previous editions, and GW has tried to curb its use at every opportunity. A ridiculous mosh pit of a bunch of guys jumping all over each other to catch bullets is not intended by the game. It's loathsome in the sense of being a clearly unintended abuse of mechanics, like the old pivot to gain extra movement tricks. The rules of the game are designed to be an abstraction to help you construct a narrative, it's not your taxes where you utilize every loophole and vulnerability to get ahead.

 

The most complained about parts of LOS was that you could spread it out without killing multi-wound models off and that you could LOS failed saves, the failed saves being the big one. Having the point model not die first wasn't a factor. I agree the concept is abstract in the extreme, which only gets worse in combat...but the thematic failing is on GW; the rule is functioning mechanically exactly how it should. It's not a loophole or a gotcha, FW wanted the mechanic to be part of custodes or they would have just given them chosen warrior, because there's literally no other difference between the two any more.

 

 

 

Your counter examples are ludicrous, a machine spirit is an upgrade you pay points for and lets you shoot ONE weapon. It makes sense that advanced cogitators can compensate for some rough riding. Your Cirque de Soleil bullet catching acrobatics are not even in the same universe.

For rhino hull tanks it is. Everything else gets it built in, while every flyer and skimmer with it now gets to never have to make a meaningful choice about jinking. All of them also have one gun that's clearly superior to the others in any given context, so it's not like there's any decision making skills. "Abused" by "loathsome people" to take away negatives.

 

 

 

You seem to be advocating that it's okay for a list to be unbeatable without tailoring against it.

 Is that what I said? I said a list built to deal with a Legion force will lose against Custodes, and then I said you will have a very hard time winning against Talons/Mechanicum/Solar/Militia if you don't take the right tools.

 

 

 

 You can most certainly build take-all-comer Legion list that can handle take-all-comer Auxilia or Mechanicum or Militia lists, your assertion is simply false on its face. 

 

Nice value statements. Care to actually show some examples of these lists?

 

 

 

I reject wholesale however the argument that list tailoring is okay and should be mandatory when facing the Bananas of Doom, which is essentially what you are saying.

 

In the age of the pickup game being dead, with regular opponents, its pretty hard to forget what your buddies own. Especially in 30k. Good for you if you play 1 list over and over, regardless of opponents.

[Gorgoff]

Proxyed them. Fact that they are not out yet does not mean that they don't exists. We have no problem playing vs stuff that is not out yet as proxy, its okay to give player chance to test before he buys. They are filthy OP...

Proxies are ok, but come on.

Twelve Jetbikes? ;)

 

I wonder how expansive they'll be.

50£?

[Plaguecaster]

A plasma Deredeo sounds like it would be very good against Custodoe squads (good thing I've got one converted up) just a shame they couldn't get some sort of extra AP2 carapace weapon though maybe the pavise would be more helpful for the better sv

[Runefyre]

A plasma Deredeo sounds like it would be very good against Custodoe squads (good thing I've got one converted up) just a shame they couldn't get some sort of extra AP2 carapace weapon though maybe the pavise would be more helpful for the better sv

Actually the aiollis should be great for by-passing Custodes flare-shields.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Know what demolishes our custodes? Freaking ursurax. I just played a round and a large squad of ursarax with their feel no pain and multiple wounds with fists just crushed small 3 man custodes squads. Str10 fists hurt us bad so does being outnumbered by 3 wound jump pack pain in the butts.

 

The shields help but the ursurax have 4 attacks on charge, they hit like trains and are easiest to deal with in shooting phase but if you don't take ID guns they are obnoxious.

[Baluc]

Why are people not infiltrating with Custodes?

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Why are people not infiltrating with Custodes?

Some are. But there are other warlord traits that suit some situations better. And tankbune is pretty overwhelming for some games and I kinda love Valdor.

[Runefyre]

 

Why are people not infiltrating with Custodes?

Some are. But there are other warlord traits that suit some situations better. And tankbune is pretty overwhelming for some all games and I kinda love Valdor.

 

FIFY

 

I'm only ever going to run Valdor, and if I do run a tribune I certainly won't be taking a praesidium shield + cyber-familiar (I'll treat them as mutually exclusive).

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I certainly won't feel bad about running him against alpha legion in a stormlord that one guy brings.

[Baluc]

 

Why are people not infiltrating with Custodes?

Some are. But there are other warlord traits that suit some situations better. And tankbune is pretty overwhelming for some games and I kinda love Valdor.

 

 

I can't think of a situation where any would be better, than deploying your elite army to concentrate force and minimise distance between the enemy

[Withershadow]

 

The most complained about parts of LOS was that you could spread it out without killing multi-wound models off and that you could LOS failed saves, the failed saves being the big one. Having the point model not die first wasn't a factor. I agree the concept is abstract in the extreme, which only gets worse in combat...but the thematic failing is on GW; the rule is functioning mechanically exactly how it should. It's not a loophole or a gotcha, FW wanted the mechanic to be part of custodes or they would have just given them chosen warrior, because there's literally no other difference between the two any more.

 

First of all, we can never know what FW intended, because they are extremely sloppy and inconsistent with their writing, with frequent contradictions and unforeseen consequences. Book VII in particular is the biggest example of this failing since Imperial Armour XIII.

 

Second, it is our responsibility as mature adults to not abuse "thematic failings". You are essentially saying, "yes, I know this is wrong, but it's technically allowed, so I am going to take full advantage".

 

Third and final, given the FAQ ruling we can leave this discussion where it lays. A Custodes squad needs to suffer ~4.5 AP2 wounds before losing a model, Custodes with shields need to suffer ~7 AP2 wounds. All that is potent but manageable, and only gets truly obnoxious on the Haeteron Guard who need to suffer ~11.4 AP2 wounds in a single turn before dropping a guy. But none of that is a "thematic failing", it's one guy getting in the way of another guy, and rotating wounded guys  to the back also seems appropriate.

 

 

For rhino hull tanks it is. Everything else gets it built in, while every flyer and skimmer with it now gets to never have to make a meaningful choice about jinking. All of them also have one gun that's clearly superior to the others in any given context, so it's not like there's any decision making skills. "Abused" by "loathsome people" to take away negatives.

Hardly, a Fire Raptor for example loses half of its potency with it. A vindicator shooting after moving 12" is not the end of the world and is also available by just making it fast. So this is really only an issue in the Custodes list, where everything is a skimmer with at least one badass gun and machine spirit and thus effectively have 4+ saves all the time. So you're not exactly helping the "they're fine" argument if that's even what you're arguing.

 

Is that what I said? I said a list built to deal with a Legion force will lose against Custodes, and then I said you will have a very hard time winning against Talons/Mechanicum/Solar/Militia if you don't take the right tools.

 

Nice value statements. Care to actually show some examples of these lists?

 

I disagree, I build lists to handle Solar Auxilia, Mechanicum and Legions. Against Militia, I would expect a mix of Guard-like stuff, not 1000 points of rending cultists, although that also sounds fun in its own way since I expect I could kill quite a few. Here are a few I'm tinkering with:

 

Alpha Legion

Rite of War: Orbital Assault

Mutable Tactic: Tank hunter

HQ - Vigilator -145

AA/refractor, powersword, jump pack meltabombs

Elites - 8x Veteran Tactical Squad, plasmagun/6x combi-plasma, power axe, fist/dagger/AA, pod - 286

Elites - 8x Veteran Tactical Squad, meltagun/6x combi-melta, power axe, fist/dagger/AA, pod - 286

Troops - Tactical squad with CCWs, vexilla, fist/dagger/AA, pod - 220

Troops - Tactical squad with CCWs, vexilla, fist/dagger/AA, pod - 220

Troops - 8x Plasma Support Squad, AA/combi-plasma/dagger/MB, pod - 305

Fast Attack - Javelin with cyclone missile, multi-melta, 2x HK missiles - 75

Heavy Support - 5x Culverin Jetbikes - 305

Heavy Support - Fire Raptor - 240

LOW - Alpharius - 415

 

Thousand Sons

Rite of War: Pride of the Legion

HQ: Ahriman - 225

HQ: Primus Medicae – Raptora, Cataphractii, thunder hammer, ML1 - 160

HQ: Primus Medicae – Pavoni, Tartaros, force staff, ML1 - 155

Troops: 9x Veterans - ML1, corvidae, asphyx, marksmen, 1 plasmagun, sgt with AA/axe - 233

Rhino+Dozer=40

Troops: 10x Veterans - ML1, corvidae, asphyx, marksmen, 2 plasmaguns, sgt with AA/axe - 260

Rhino+Dozer=40

Troops: 9x Raptora Cataphractii Sekhmet - ML2, 6x combi-plasmas, 3 chainfists - 455

Troops: 9x Pyrae Tartaros Sekhmet - ML2, 6x combi-meltas, 3x chainfists - 455

Heavy Support: Fire Raptor - 240

Heavy Support: Kharybdis - 235

2498

 

Sons of Horus

Rite of War: The Long March

HQ - Maloghurst – 140

Elites – Quad Mortar with shatter shells – 70

Elites – Quad Mortar with shatter shells – 70

Elites – Quad Mortar with shatter shells – 70

Elites – 5x Justaerin with 5x combi-meltas, 2x chainfist, 3x fists – 325

Dedicated Transport – Dreadclaw Assault Craft - 115

Troops – Marksmen Veterans, Sgt with artificer, 2 plasma guns – 200

Dedicated Transport – Rhino with dozer, HK missile, multi-melta - 60

Troops – Marksmen Veterans in Rhino as above – 260

Troops – 8x Plasma Support Squad – Sgt with AA,MB & combi-plasma, CCWs - 281

Fast Attack – Anvillus Dreadclaw – 115

Heavy Support – Scorpius Whirlwind with HK missile – 120

Heavy Support – Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought – 235

Heavy Support – Leviathan with Grav Flux, Claw, Phosphex, 2x Volkites – 335

Dedicated Transport – Dreadnought Drop Pod – 100

2496

 

In the age of the pickup game being dead, with regular opponents, its pretty hard to forget what your buddies own. Especially in 30k. Good for you if you play 1 list over and over, regardless of opponents.

Pick-up games are indeed dead, but for me a larger portion of my games takes at events rather than regular opponents.

[Rabidbunneh]

This thread has been invaluable.

My first HH games will be vs Custodes.

And I have 2 months to get a Legion ready.

So far DA are the strongest contenders with the Poison HB and stasis grenades.

Well time to stack up those plasma guns.

 

I wouldn't choose your list based on Custodes, just go with what you like the background for, then work from there. Custodes are going to be a fairly rare army for a while.

[Caillum]

I think it's time to return to the real subject matter - Custodes Tactica, not anti-Custodes Tactica. Can someone please start another thread about how to deal with them?

 

Now... Sentinel Guard Squads are in an unusual place where they cost 180 points for the first 3, but 65 for each additional model. Possibly a typo, but we won't know for a while.

 

With this in mind, minimum sized squads with Solarite power gauntlets seem like a great option! Give one a Magisterium vexilla and they have 10 S10 AP1 attacks on the charge, with master-crafted and Fear. That can deal with a lot of different threats! Having +1 to combat res within 12" is nifty, especially as it affects "friendly" units (ie. Sisters and Allies).

 

I'm trying to come up with a Webway themed list with Custodes, Sisters, Knights and Allied Mechanicum. This is roughly what it might look like:

HQ

Constantin Valdor xxx

Jenetia Krole xxx

 

TROOPS

3 Legio Custodes Sentinel Guards: 3 × Solarite power gauntlet; Magisterium vexilla 225

3 Legio Custodes Sentinel Guards: 3 × Solarite power gauntlet; Magisterium vexilla 225

 

ELITES

Legio Custodes Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought: Achillus dreadspear 240

Legio Custodes Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought: Achillus dreadspear 240

10 Sisters of Silence Oblivion Knights: Raptor Guard Cadre; Oblivion Knight Mistress; 9 Sisters of Silence Oblivion Knights 170

• Kharon Pattern Acquistor xxx

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Legio Custodes Caladius Grav-tank xxx

Legio Custodes Caladius Grav-tank xxx

Legio Custodes Contemptor-Galatus Dreadnought xxx

 

LORDS OF WAR

War Machine Detachment

• Cerastus Knight-Castigator xxx

 

HQ

Magos Prime: Lachrimallus; Cyber-familiar; machinator array 160

 

TROOPS

15 Tech-thralls: carapace armour; The Rite of Pure Thought 85

15 Tech-thralls: carapace armour; The Rite of Pure Thought 85

 

3,000 points

 

Thoughts?

[Withershadow]

The fists are a nice call, and whatever you kitbash will probably look better than the goofy swords (although scutum and fist is a funny weapon combo too).

 

What Cadre will you select for the Sisters?  Overawe may be a fun choice to combo with those banners for +2 to combat resolutions.

[Caillum]

Blood Angels have some nice fists which will work out well. 'Overawe' could be a really good option, yes. Maybe a 2nd squad of Sisters is in order - 1 flanking each Sentinel Guard Squad...

 

I also want to shout out my favourite thing from Inferno - Jenetia Krole. She has a slew of special rules, like Rage, Eternal Warrior, Fearless, and Preferred Enemy (Characters, Psykers):

- Newest FAQ says that if a target unit contains a Character, an attacking unit with Preferred Enemy (Characters) gets it against the whole target unit! :)

- She has an awesome Warlord Trait (re-roll to seize, and d3 Infantry units gain Scout).

- Her Raptor Guard Cadre is pretty cool. I always say you should never underestimate WS5. If Krole is in the unit, those Execution blades are going to be scary (PE will mean more 5's & 6's To Hit, meaning more AP2).

- Basically, apart from being T3, she is an Eternal Warrior Praetor with a better Paragon blade. Plus she has her anti-Psyker abilities.

 

The Tankibune is not the slightest bit appealing to me. IMHO, Krole is the best character in the Talons list.

[Withershadow]

Valdor and Krole are both fun choices. Does the exclusive guy (Ixion Hale or whatever) have unique rules?

[Charlo]

He does not.

[Caillum]

^ Not yet! :)

[TompiQ]

Krole is indeed comparable to a praetor and definitely a strong choice for HQ. I'm considering running her and Tankibune as an infiltrating duo for a small footprint and majority toughness 5, inspired by how she and tribune Ra fought in Master of Mankind. Edited February 25, 2017 by TompiQ

[depthcharge12]

Has anyone tried fighting Tankibune against Valdor? Lol

[Slips]

He stands a good shot at coming out on top (and Sigismund too if in a challenge) since they have access to re-roll successful invulnerable saves which, for expediencies purposes, could just be resolved as negating his re-roll failed invulns. Or, just roll all saves and reroll everything and keep that result. You get the idea.

 

The Mhara Gal WB dread also has a similar rule with invulns and while theyre not the most prevalent thing, probably has a decent shot at it too for much of the above reasons.

 

Still tankier than both due to at least 1 better invulnerablebut the tankibune isnt getting his Preternatural Skill Bonus if he wasnt using a Fist.

[Gorgoff]

Vor 275 Points you get over 100 warp cultists. Do the math. :P