A returning Raven Guard player…it's been 8 years!

[Submarine]

 

 

Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot, and Scout Sergeants cannot spot for their own unit. It must be "another unit from this Formation."

Their unit is in that formation. What it means is they can't spot for a unit not in the formation. But anyway it isn't an insurmountable problem. They will spot for each others bike units.

 

 

That doesn't solve the problem that, RAW, Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot at all. Only Scout Sergeants can.

 

Ah I see your point. RAW I would agree. I am not sure it is RAI, but until clarification you have to take it as RAW. Another thing that weakens the PDC. 

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot, and Scout Sergeants cannot spot for their own unit. It must be "another unit from this Formation."

Their unit is in that formation. What it means is they can't spot for a unit not in the formation. But anyway it isn't an insurmountable problem. They will spot for each others bike units.

 

 

That doesn't solve the problem that, RAW, Scout Biker Sergeants cannot spot at all. Only Scout Sergeants can.

 

Ah I see your point. RAW I would agree. I am not sure it is RAI, but until clarification you have to take it as RAW. Another thing that weakens the PDC. 

 

 

Not really. You really only need 1 squad of Scouts to give your Devastators Ignores Cover.

 

Scout Bike Squads in a Pinion are better used as mobile beacons to get your SSKT Vanguard where you want them. The fact that giving them grenade launchers makes them dangerous in their own right is just gravy.

 

3 Scout Bike squads and the 2 Scout squads in the SSKT will leave your opponent guessing where those Vanguard Vets are going to drop. Spread them across the board enough and your opponent will have fits trying to keep his important units away from getting assaulted turn 1 during his deployment.

 

That is a situation where you want to deploy FIRST. If your opponent is worried enough about your Vanguard, you can influence where he deploys his units based on where you put your beacons.

 

Raven Guard are really good at messing with people's heads. This is just another in a long line of examples.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Played another game against my buddies necrons, both using our previous lists, but with some tweaks.

Talon Strike Force

Battle Demi-Co

HQ: Murderwings (Raven's Fury, Swiftstrike + Murder, MB, Auspex)

Elite: Dreadnaught - MM, HF, Drop Pod

Fast Attack: 3 x Bike (2 x Grav-Guns)

Heavy Support: 3 x Centurions (Grav-Cannons, Omniscope)

Troops: 3 x Tactical (5-Man, Plasma Gun in each)

Shadow-Strike Kill-Team

5 Scouts (Bolters)
5 Scouts (Bolters)
8 Vanguard Veterans (4 x BP + SS&MB, 4 x LC/PF)

Raven Guard CAD

HQ:
Shadow Captain Korvydae
ML2 Librarian (Armor of Shadows, BP, Force Axe, Auspex) - Goes with Centurions in Drop Pod

Troops:
6 x Scouts (Snipers, Camo Cloaks)
5 x ASM (2 x Flamer, bare bones)
5 x ASM (2 x Flamer, bare bones)

Fast Attack:
Drop Pod (For the Centurions)

My opponent:

Necron Decurion:

Lord w/ Gauntlet of Conflag



10 Warriors (Ghost Ark)
10 Warriors (Ghost Ark)
10 Warriors (Ghost Ark)
6 Immortals in Scythe (Warlord goes here)


3 Tomb Blades

Some formation (can't recall name)
Triarch Stalker
5 Praetorians
5 Praetorians

Canoptek Harvest:
1 Tomb Spyder
3 Scarabs
8 Wraiths

Some things of note, this game was 1850, I believe our last one was 1700. We both made slight modifications to our lists. I decided to swap out my VV kit load-out from PF+SS and dual LC guys to 4 x SS + BP and then LC/PF guys. Overall cheaper and the same number of LC attacks, more PF attacks, but not both, at a cost. Overall I was pleased with this, but it didn't really come into play. My opponent trimmed down his praetorians, and added a 3rd Ghost Ark with Warriors.

We talked at length before the game about his strategy because he typically deploys using his full deployment zone, which leaves him stretched thing (3 Ghost arks, Tomb Blades, and a wraith blob only can cover so much board. We were in agreement that it made more sense for him to "castle up" versus me to mitigate my ability to alpha strike, cripple one flank and then roll up the side. (If he were able to keep his army tight together, there wouldn't be a "weak spot" for me to punish with my first turn Vanguards without suffering severe retaliation.

We decided to try something new and run ITC mission parameters. We played mission one (Emperor's Will objective, Maelstrom D6 objectives, First Strike, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker). The mission actually has Big Game Hunter, but we confused ourselves at the start and didn't notice it was BGH and not First Strike until top of T2, so we just kept it First Strike (we wanted to see the difference between First Strike/First Blood).

In typical RG fashion I wont he roll to deploy/go first. I deployed spread fairly even across my deployment not really certain where my opponent would castle up. Tacticals spread evenly across the board, with both ASM squads (one with Murderwings, one with Korvydae) right in the middle behind LOS blocking terrain. My opponent castled up in one corner, effectively null deploying half his table edge. It would appear he wanted to try to pull a RG move and roll my flank, leading the spearhead with his Wraiths in the center (Sneaky devil). Rolled for night fight (got it, *fist pump*). And then my opponent Siezed..... ruh roh.

Wraiths straight up the board right at my right flank. Spider behind that. All 3 Arks moving up in a supporting fire formation behind the Wraiths. Both units of praetorians interspersed behind the arks for cover, ready to counter attack. After moving the wraiths up and running with them, they were roughly 7-8" from my lines. This made me feel forced into one option and one option only: Kill the spider with my Cent alpha and then commit every assault troop I had to the Wraith assault and hope to blunt/eliminate it in one decisive offensive. I jumped both units of ASMs with both HQs, Deep Striked my VVs right in front of my deployment zone (My scouts were to the left flank preparing for a drop there, they would be useless most of the game over there only killing the 3 tomb blades), which meant I had to actually roll for Deep Strike on the VV, which was mildly terrifying. There was some risk in a mishap where I put them to charge the Wraiths, but it was fairly minimal (maybe 30-40% "threat zone" of the possible 360 degree field of arc in 12" possible scatter). Rolled a small scatter (6") and was fine. Committed all 8 VVs, 10 ASMs, and both HQs to the assault. I shot my whole army at them first to try to soften them up, did one wound! Cents and Librarian dropped in behind his army to go after the exposed spider, my librarian rolled up Invisibility, proceeded to get it off, and then I obliterated the Spider - no more FnP for the Wraiths. In assault I killed 4.5 of the 8 Wraiths, with about 30% of the casualties coming from Hammer of Wrath, 30% coming from the Vanguards, and the last 40% coming from Murderwings. Its amazing what ~15 re-rollable Hammer of Wrath hits can do. In return he put half his attacks into the vanguards and half into the ASM squad with Murderwings. The vanguards made their Storm Shield saves, didn't lose any, and I lost 3 ASMs from Muderwings' unit.

In the following turn one unit of praetorians went for a counter assault on the vanguards side of the combat, and the other unit of praetorians went after my flank. He bogged down my Cents with Scarabs and then warriors, and the game ground to a halt thereafter. Game was relatively close points wise, with me scoring a win (something like 15-12 at the end of the game). My opponent wanted to concede at the end of turn two when the wraiths died and my 3 assault units all broke off and went different directions, but I encouraged him to continue playing because he still had nearly 30 warriors and all 3 arks, along with his HQ in reserves. It's a good thing we did continue because the game was quite close. My ability to provide a hammerblow offensive (in a pinch) in my center at the start was very critical for winning a game like this where I got Seized on.

All in all I can say that the ITC format for missions is more balanced/streamline than regular Maelstrom, but I think I like Maelstrom more. Maelstrom just has a more dynamic feel to it. I found myself not doing as much moving/scrambling to score points, and the game felt more "direct" playing ITC. That being said for a tournament format it does work quite well. (I feel like I rolled more "destroy a unit" than anything else).

 

Second post to follow with some thoughts/breakdowns of the changes I made on kit load-out and mission objectives.
 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

So, some thoughts on Vanguard Veteran Loadouts. I have now tested two different "methodologies" and here is a breakdown on both. In both cases I am running a 50/50 blend.

 

For arguments sake, I am going to use 8-Man units, since that so far has been my preferred size.

 

All Veterans have Jump Packs (Obviously)

 

Vanguard Veteran with Dual Lightning Claw

Vanguard Veteran with LC + PF

Vanguard Veteran with PF + SS

Vanguard Veteran with SS + BP

 

My most-used squad looks like this: (affectionately known as "Thematic" loadout)

 

4 x Vanguard Veterans with PF + SS

4 x Vanguard Veterans Twin LC & Melta Bombs

Cost: 336 Points

 

My recent test (designation "Chaff" loadout)

 

4 x Vanguard Veterans with BP + SS & Melta Bombs

4 x Vanguard Veterans with LC + PF

Cost: 316 Points

 

Damage Output (On the Charge):

 

Squad "Thematic"

16 LC attacks or 4 Melta Bombs

12 PF Attacks

 

vs

 

Squad "Chaff"

12 Basic attacks or 4 Melta Bombs

16 LC attacks OR 16 PF attacks

 

So some things of note, pros and cons, etc:

 

Squad Chaff is cheaper

Squad Chaff stays "combat effective" longer when taking sustained casualties (Loses less threat potential then its counterparts over time)

Squad Chaff has a better weapon pairing (Specialist Weapon), to allow more thru-put/ Return on Investment

Squad Thematic has much better overall output against targets where both Power Fists and Lightning Claws are effective (any sort of MEQ, or 3+ higher toughness unit (some MCs/tau suits)

Squad Thematic fits better with the "Rule of Cool" (Specifically dual LC looks great/fluffy on Ravenguard, PF/LC looks dumb to me, and in dire need of conversion/theory work to be 'acceptable)

 

I feel like my principal reason for wanting to run Squad Thematic is simply the modelling side of it. I actually think Bolt Pistol and Storm Shield looks pretty cool (concept wise), but LC/PF just seems dumb to me. I dont really find PF/SS that compelling either, and have been debating just building them with Thunder Hammer/SS and playing them "counts as PF" cause something about a Mace and Shield screams rule of cool.

 

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter, wether it be modelling, tactics, or list analysis.

 

P.S. My bike squad actually lived past turn one this game, and manged to dole out some damage. My initial impression is that if youre shooting them at something that isnt MEQ or TEQ, its a crappy unit, because lack of Grav-Amps means you can't "brute force" casualties against lighter armored targets like you can with their grav cannon elder brother. Also, I really wish I had a MB on my Sergeant on this squad, having that option seems very strong.

So, some thoughts on Vanguard Veteran Loadouts. I have now tested two different "methodologies" and here is a breakdown on both. In both cases I am running a 50/50 blend.

 

For arguments sake, I am going to use 8-Man units, since that so far has been my preferred size.

 

All Veterans have Jump Packs (Obviously)

 

Vanguard Veteran with Dual Lightning Claw

Vanguard Veteran with LC + PF

Vanguard Veteran with PF + SS

Vanguard Veteran with SS + BP

 

My most-used squad looks like this: (affectionately known as "Thematic" loadout)

 

4 x Vanguard Veterans with PF + SS

4 x Vanguard Veterans Twin LC & Melta Bombs

Cost: 336 Points

 

My recent test (designation "Chaff" loadout)

 

4 x Vanguard Veterans with BP + SS & Melta Bombs

4 x Vanguard Veterans with LC + PF

Cost: 316 Points

 

Damage Output (On the Charge):

 

Squad "Thematic"

16 LC attacks or 4 Melta Bombs

12 PF Attacks

 

vs

 

Squad "Chaff"

12 Basic attacks or 4 Melta Bombs

16 LC attacks OR 16 PF attacks

 

So some things of note, pros and cons, etc:

 

Squad Chaff is cheaper

Squad Chaff stays "combat effective" longer when taking sustained casualties (Loses less threat potential then its counterparts over time)

Squad Chaff has a better weapon pairing (Specialist Weapon), to allow more thru-put/ Return on Investment

Squad Thematic has much better overall output against targets where both Power Fists and Lightning Claws are effective (any sort of MEQ, or 3+ higher toughness unit (some MCs/tau suits)

Squad Thematic fits better with the "Rule of Cool" (Specifically dual LC looks great/fluffy on Ravenguard, PF/LC looks dumb to me, and in dire need of conversion/theory work to be 'acceptable)

 

I feel like my principal reason for wanting to run Squad Thematic is simply the modelling side of it. I actually think Bolt Pistol and Storm Shield looks pretty cool (concept wise), but LC/PF just seems dumb to me. I dont really find PF/SS that compelling either, and have been debating just building them with Thunder Hammer/SS and playing them "counts as PF" cause something about a Mace and Shield screams rule of cool.

 

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter, wether it be modelling, tactics, or list analysis.

 

P.S. My bike squad actually lived past turn one this game, and manged to dole out some damage. My initial impression is that if youre shooting them at something that isnt MEQ or TEQ, its a crappy unit, because lack of Grav-Amps means you can't "brute force" casualties against lighter armored targets like you can with their grav cannon elder brother. Also, I really wish I had a MB on my Sergeant on this squad, having that option seems very strong.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Race Bannon
Could not PM; specific points in post

[ShinyRhino]

Very thorough analysis. Shame you have to redo it all now that the BRB FAQ made one grenade per turn official. That seriously hurts both units.

[Alcyon]

Very cool batrep and analysis, lyvyper, thanks for sharing. I do hear you about squad thematics. On some level I would worry that between HoW and all those attacks, it would wipe out an enemy completely leaving you vulnerable to shooting in your opponent's turn. I think I'm closer to running the "chaff" squad especially since I'm more constrained on points.

 

@Shiny — losing 3 MB attacks when you already have 12-16 PF attacks, is that really a major hit? I should think any vehicle would be dead from that many S8 AP1 hits on the charge.

[Race Bannon]

On MB, meh. Shunt the points into something else. Like a PFist or THammer ^_^

[ShinyRhino]

Very cool batrep and analysis, lyvyper, thanks for sharing. I do hear you about squad thematics. On some level I would worry that between HoW and all those attacks, it would wipe out an enemy completely leaving you vulnerable to shooting in your opponent's turn. I think I'm closer to running the "chaff" squad especially since I'm more constrained on points.

 

@Shiny — losing 3 MB attacks when you already have 12-16 PF attacks, is that really a major hit? I should think any vehicle would be dead from that many S8 AP1 hits on the charge.

Yeah, the mixed squads still have plenty of PF attacks, but half of each squad doesn't do anything at all to armor with the change to grenades.

 

I wonder if it would be more advantageous now to run smaller homogenous squads?

[Race Bannon]

Overall, maybe. I try to homogenize squads anyway to remove target priority from either myself or the opponent. I mean some things can't be helped, where a Demi-squad of dudes has three types of targets (sgt, special, and non-special), but that's three dudes getting canned before someone different sees daisies.

 

So, for Vanguard Vets, although I support other ideas on this board, I personally try to make them the same because no matter what, they still have a 3+ save.

 

For this list, you could still strike with the fists and have a single dude sticky-bomb the grenade, yeah?

[Alcyon]

With all the options we have for bubble wrapping and allocating wounds, isn't it a stronger strategy to have a mix of target priority in a squad? The BP+CCW guys are pricey for what they are, but at least with RG CT you get those re-rollable HoW attacks from having more dudes. Plus, protects you from being hooped if your specialized squad scatters away from their key target.

[ShinyRhino]

With all the options we have for bubble wrapping and allocating wounds, isn't it a stronger strategy to have a mix of target priority in a squad? The BP+CCW guys are pricey for what they are, but at least with RG CT you get those re-rollable HoW attacks from having more dudes. Plus, protects you from being hooped if your specialized squad scatters away from their key target.

There are equally valid arguments to be made for either school of thought, and in the end it boils down to personal preferences.

 

For the sake of argument, having more men in a squad doesn't always mean more HoW attacks. There are situations in which a big squad caps out on HoW because models block squad mates from making base contact.

 

I personally prefer to use units of ten when I can, to capitalize on Combat Squads. Five fists and five naked can make an all fist squad and an all naked squad, or any combination between.

[Mr. Poe]

For the VV loadout, I like to run them in squad sizes of five or ten combat squaded; points wise around 150-175 per five marines.

My personal approach to this game is to allow myself multiple ways of engaging the enemy. Two squads of five for me provide more engagement options than one squad of ten. Maybe its the engineer in me but I like to apply only the amount of points needed to achieve my goals in this game; over kill makes me cringe

As for the loadout, I used to run LC/LC all day, style points FTW (ah the Shrikes Wing Days). Eventually I got over the "Rule of Cool" urge and redistributed the to ad some AP2 high strengths attacks. I really do believe that there are only two ways to run VV. You either make the squad a TAC, able to engage all types of targets or you make them specialists. I've been trying out small five man specialist squads recently and it has its moments. For MEQ and TEQ killing I've tried 2SS & 4LC and for TEQ/Vehicle hunting PF/LC & PA/SS mixes.

Congrats on your win BTW, I'd love to see more report like this in the Raven Guard section.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

@ShinyRhino

It was pretty amusing to me that the day after I write all that up the FAQ goes official. On the upside, at least the squad is cheaper now? WTB ability to buy an eviscerator or two in a VV squad

@Inquisitor Alcyon

Thanks for the kind words. I like writing up a short review/batrep after a game, especially when playing Ravenguard, as I find it helps me digest and evaluate what really went on during the game, and gives me better perspective when making more decisions going forward. If people enjoy reading them, I will continue writing them! In regards to squad size and wiping out an enemy and running the risk of getting shot at: it is always a concern. I always strive to apply the correct amount of force (or just shy) so as to stay engaged, but it can never be a garunteed thing. For bigger sized games (1850-2k) I find myself typically running 8 man, but at lower levels I will frequently drop to 6-man. I have considered going to two units of 6 as well. There is of course a fear when going against tough units (most MCs, GMCs, and strong H2H units) that you can "bleed out" so to speak before finishing the target. This is more of a concern with a 5 or 6 man unit and less so with 8. I think it honestly depends on your army comp and what you rely on your VVs to eliminate. My current list is strong, but I think it could be stronger, at present I rely on my VVs quite a bit, them forming part of a "3-core" lineup, where the other two components are my Centurions and Murderwings. Those 3 units alone do the vast majority of my target elimination.

@Race Bannon

Always down for moar Thunder Hammers!

On the note of loss of MBs, I think I will continue to give the MB to one of the guys that doesn't have a PFist. On the upside since I haven't started modelling my VVs yet, and im still using ASM proxies, I have an exscuse to model one guy throwing a MB (Would look pretty sweet with a SS + MB (Thinking that scene from Two Towers where the one Uruk Hai is all crazed up running with the bomb up the drainage ditch while being chanted on by thousands of raving soliders )

When you talk about homegenization, I am having a tough time getting what you mean by target priority. I get that your target priority becomes improved/more efficient (given the squad now has a mono-task), but doesn't it also become easier for your opponent as well? (Oh, well im playing Deathwing and those VVs all have dual LCs, I can go ahead and ignore them). I can see a decision being based on efficiency and cost, but homogenizing them almost seems dismissive. Also, from what you wrote it seems like to me you don't consider Storm Shields to be a worthwhile investment (I am reading into your post way too much I am sure, but I would love to hear you elaborate on your thoughts)

When talking about ablative wounds, I feel like having "naked" guys with just BP+CCW almost feels like a waste to me when you consider how cheap some of the weapon options are. Like ShinyRhino stated a lot of it obviously boils down to personal prefernce, but I find that a lot of my composition choices stem from real world experiences I have had playing the list on the field. If I try something and it works out, I keep it. If I try something and it doesnt, I typically will swap it. If someone is running naked VVs in a RG list and having success with it, I want to know the background story I want to hear what they are using them against, and how they feel they shine. IMO someone's else experience can be almost as valuable to me personally as if I had had said experience myself. I mean, in a way, that's the whole point of this subforum, right? To collectively draw on eachothers experience and feedback?

On the subject of More Men =/= More HoW attacks, ShinyRhino is absolutely true. When I ratchet the count up to 8, I frequently find myself not getting all 8. More often than nought I lose out on a handful of hits. Which is a strong argument for Demi-Squads, Combat Squads, etc. And as I have mentioned before, HoW with our Chapter Tactics I find to be one of the largest selling points of the army right now. It really does rack up a lot of wounds.


@ Mr.Poe

Couldn't agree more on your opinion in regards to efficiency and overkill. I don't think I would ever consider a squad larger than 8 in size, and I can see the argument for maximum number of 5-man units for sure.

I like your idea of a "budget per 5-man" train of thought. With that concept, how much of your total force budget do you find yourself investing in VVs? If the "common" army size is 1850, given the context of a SSKT, and the ~175pts per 5 rule of thumb, that could mean one 5-man unit, or 4. That could be 175 points or 700 points. That's 9% of your army, or 38%. Id love to see an exact example of your breakdown of what you take in an 1850 list.

Also speaking to your unit composition, I am having a tough time coming to terms with the Power Axe. I get the AP2/higher str concept, but why not just spend 10 more points and ratchet it up to Strength 8 if you really need that sort of tool and are already going to be striking at Initiative 1? I sense a "rule of cool" looming.


Oh, on a semi-related noted, @ Race. I see you edited my post for points-issues. Sorry about that. I know we can post unit totals, and I know we can't post specific base unit or wargear costs. I figured I was safe with a "model total" where each model has 1-2 upgrades to differentiate/obscure the exact costs. I guess I failed to see the difference between "Vanguard Veteran Trooper XYZ with Storm Shield and Power Fist costs XXX" and "Captain ABC with Dual Lightning Claws, Jump Pack, and Teleport Homer costs YYY", where the second example is frequently accepted, but the first isn't. I hope you don't perceive my questioning to be disrespectful, I just want to know where the line in the sand is so I can be sure to not cross it in the future

[Race Bannon]

Good response :tu:

 

To explain my position on homogenization: Making 5 dudes all the same removes target priority for me to choose who goes or who stays. When the choice is the opponent's (either by tactical acumen in model placement or special rule), then the "joy" of picking out a special dude is also removed.  This does not mean I intentionally go out of my way to have bland units everywhere, nor can it really be done.  For example: my first VV squad has 5 dudes with LC/BPistol.  Although the Sergeant has a MB, that's not a serious loss if he's the one that has to go (unless he is last ;) ).  My next 5 dude squad will have 4x LC/LC and 1 TH/SH.  In a Dev squad, conventional wisdom already dictates to have 4x [weapon] and the Sergeant ... because he can't have a Heavy Weapon :P 

 

To be sure, this is not a rule I follow to an extreme, yet I will provide the idea as an alternative to heavily mixed dudes within a unit - which the VV squad can do in spades.  Actually so can SG squads ...

 

On Storm Shields, you are correct I do not consider them a good investment in a VV squad.  I'm only using one for my VV dudes because the schema of a SS is to pair it with the TH.  It's also the weapon load-out of Squad Davros (?) from the Shadow Force Solaq box and that unit has the Fear SR.  C'mon, a RG unit with Fear?!  Yes, please, convictions be damned.  Yet, the big reason is because it reduces potential attacks by 1.  I don't even pack it on character models if they lack a comparable Invulnerable save.  I do not, or try not to, counsel against it's use overtly because it's just a personal preference based on my experience.  I'd rather have that extra attack ^_^

 

And I agree that "naked" VV dudes is a waste.  A tragic waste.  For this unit, I would never do it, nor counsel for it, yet I will also not tell someone it's a waste in other words.  If I want a dude with a Jump Pack using a BP/CCW, then I'll use an Assault Squad.  Part of the VV strength is their ability to get special CC weapons at a discount.  Points should be pulled from the pool in order to let them have those weapons.

 

I love this thread!  Forgive me for threadjacking ^_^

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

To explain my position on homogenization: Making 5 dudes all the same removes target priority for me to choose who goes or who stays. When the choice is the opponent's (either by tactical acumen in model placement or special rule), then the "joy" of picking out a special dude is also removed. This does not mean I intentionally go out of my way to have bland units everywhere, nor can it really be done. For example: my first VV squad has 5 dudes with LC/BPistol. Although the Sergeant has a MB, that's not a serious loss if he's the one that has to go (unless he is last ). My next 5 dude squad will have 4x LC/LC and 1 TH/SH. In a Dev squad, conventional wisdom already dictates to have 4x [weapon] and the Sergeant ... because he can't have a Heavy Weapon

Ahh, okay, this makes a lot of sense to me now. While I can see both sides of the argument (of mix/matching) vs homogenization, I can specifically find myself drawn to your point of "joy". There is something very Raven Guard about the removal of an asset being cold/calculated, whether it being your own or your enemies. Making the team mostly uniform with the exception of one model makes a lot of sense in that regard. You squad composition also demonstrates that you do keep your units on average cheaper than I would say most RG players do. I do find your LC/BP choice very interesting though. I see lots of people do the solo lightning claw, and I have a tough time doing it myself when we get a 2nd one so cheap

On Storm Shields, you are correct I do not consider them a good investment in a VV squad. I'm only using one for my VV dudes because the schema of a SS is to pair it with the TH. It's also the weapon load-out of Squad Davros (?) from the Shadow Force Solaq box and that unit has the Fear SR. C'mon, a RG unit with Fear?! Yes, please, convictions be damned. Yet, the big reason is because it reduces potential attacks by 1. I don't even pack it on character models if they lack a comparable Invulnerable save. I do not, or try not to, counsel against it's use overtly because it's just a personal preference based on my experience. I'd rather have that extra attack

I like the idea of using that specific datasheet to get the Fear USR. That's a nifty idea. If I learned one thing from using Shrike, its that his Fear warlord trait can be devastating in the right scenario. I get where you are coming from with Storm Shields. It's one of those things where against some opponents SS is useless/waste of points, and against others it just feels overpowered. The real question lies in whether it belongs in a TAC list (which is what I always aim for, I never tailor my lists - see 4 SS in my VV squad when fighting Necrons, virtually useless)

I love this thread! Forgive me for threadjacking

No thread jacking at all! I know this thread is sort of fragmented and jumps around from various topics as I personally experience them, but I have learned a lot over the course of this thread, and I like sharing too. Maybe as I start to develop some more key points, ill take the time to break off some "bullet point" threads that I can make independent of themselves, so we can maybe focus the discussion on just those topics and develop a bit of a "Tactica" on just those specific topics. Right now I am thinking Vanguard Veterans deserve their own thread, as do Scouts and possibly Raven Guard HQ choices!

[Race Bannon]

Ahh, okay, this makes a lot of sense to me now. While I can see both sides of the argument (of mix/matching) vs homogenization, I can specifically find myself drawn to your point of "joy". There is something very Raven Guard about the removal of an asset being cold/calculated, whether it being your own or your enemies. Making the team mostly uniform with the exception of one model makes a lot of sense in that regard. You squad composition also demonstrates that you do keep your units on average cheaper than I would say most RG players do. I do find your LC/BP choice very interesting though. I see lots of people do the solo lightning claw, and I have a tough time doing it myself when we get a 2nd one so cheap

Well, the idea is to keep a ranged weapon on hand. Sure, I could gain +1 attack for the second claw (which I declares to prefer over a SS), but as a way to keep tactical options open, they need to shoot .. and I save yet more points. :P

I like the idea of using that specific datasheet to get the Fear USR. That's a nifty idea. If I learned one thing from using Shrike, its that his Fear warlord trait can be devastating in the right scenario. I get where you are coming from with Storm Shields. It's one of those things where against some opponents SS is useless/waste of points, and against others it just feels overpowered. The real question lies in whether it belongs in a TAC list (which is what I always aim for, I never tailor my lists - see 4 SS in my VV squad when fighting Necrons, virtually useless)

I get that. Squad Davros is like 5 more points over a stock unit equipped the same way ... 5 points for Fear? Ok, yes :tu:

No thread jacking at all! I know this thread is sort of fragmented and jumps around from various topics as I personally experience them, but I have learned a lot over the course of this thread, and I like sharing too. Maybe as I start to develop some more key points, ill take the time to break off some "bullet point" threads that I can make independent of themselves, so we can maybe focus the discussion on just those topics and develop a bit of a "Tactica" on just those specific topics. Right now I am thinking Vanguard Veterans deserve their own thread, as do Scouts and possibly Raven Guard HQ choices!

Shshshshhhhh! that's in the works ^_^

[Mr. Poe]

Id love to see an exact example of your breakdown of what you take in an 1850 list.

I try not to think about it in terms of percentages, I try to think about it in terms of roles. Like what role will these VV's play in my list? I dont think it makes a difference if you have 150pts or 700pts worth of VV's as long as they can carry their weight or fill multiple roles. Lucky for us, VV's are pretty flexible and can be kitted out to deal with most GEQ, MEQ, TEQ units and potential some vehicles. I find that 150-170 points is enough to load out a squad of 5 to threaten most target units and if they do not then I can just send another 5 man squad that way. Other than easier multi charging (which is a big deal), I don't know if I see any befit to bringing any unit size other than 5 or 10. Some people like to have a strong "death star" type unit to throw around but that never really fit my style; I like my VV's cheap, quick and all over the board. I dare not say disposable.

So to answer your question: most of my games are played at 1500 pts. but the concept (I think) is still the same and applies regardless of point values. Even in larger point games, I would still keep the squad cost around 150 to 170 pts. I've been running a SSKT with a Shadow Force with 2, 5 man squads loaded out as 2xSS/CCW, 2xLC/BP, LC/LC w/ MB on the SSKT and one 5 man squad with 2xSS/PA, 2xPA/BP, PF/LC w/ MB. I swap PA squad between SSKT and SF depending on the situation. About the PA's, rule of cool plays a part of course () but I use them to help keep the cost down vs. TH and PF load outs. It's a cheap source of AP2 which helps me keep my points were I want them and fills a role for my list (hello +2 armor saves). If I were to expand to 1850 I would just bring a Raptor Wing but for the sake of discussion you could just double the Vanguard Squads in the SSKT. Maybe something like 2, 10 man squads (copies of above) to be combat squaded and another single 5 man squad.

Anyway, these are my opinions of course. I don't know how competitive a 25 man SSKT can be at 1850pts. The big issue I think is dealing with armor - at 1850 point you see a lot more AV than you do at 1500. Everyone has their own flavor when it comes to VV squads and it's always an interesting discussion. I'm sure there is someone with a math thunder hammer out there lurking, waiting to smash my PA wielding VV's to bits.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Mr. Poe

[Claws and Effect]

I've considered making a force that is primarily a SSKT with 30 Vanguard Vets combat squaded into 6 5 man units and 20 Scouts into 4 units.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Mr.Poe wrote:

I try not to think about it in terms of percentages, I try to think about it in terms of roles...<snip>...I've been running a SSKT with a Shadow Force with 2, 5 man squads loaded out as 2xSS/CCW, 2xLC/BP, LC/LC w/ MB on the SSKT and one 5 man squad with 2xSS/PA, 2xPA/BP, PF/LC w/ MB.

I guess what I didn't mention in my previous post that is a thought that I am developing now is the fractional relationship between army size, VV point commitment, and load-out. I'm sure most just read that sentence and thought "Uh, whats wrong with you Vyper, you're clearly going off the deep end". Maybe I am, but hear me out:

If my math is correct, you're 3 VV squads (MSU style) total up to 485 (155 +155+175 - I of course did this from memory of point values, might be off, I don't have my codex at work). And for that setup, you are running that in a 1500 Point game. That's 485/1500, or 32%.

For the comparison, I was running that 8-Man unit mentioned above (Chaff configuration), which clocked in at 301 points (again, from memory). That's 301/1850. That's 16%

When we look at how we kit out our squads, the more % of budget that is spent on them (against the whole army), the more we must require of them to accomplish (relatively speaking). What I'm saying is that as I go over my list an analyze it, maybe I am looking for the wrong answers for the right reasons. I have been discussing swapping to two 6 or 5 man units, I have also discussed weapon swapping. But it might be more important to look at the choices in context. When I am spending 16% of my army on my VVs, and you're spending 16%, it's sort of apples to oranges, if you catch my drift. We are going to have different opinions on load-out and what's optimal because we have different expectations.

That all being said, if I apply this line of thinking to further list analysis, I think I can draw two conclusions: I need to apply the same line of thinking to other lists when it comes to evaluation "How much does this unit cost in relation to the whole?", so I can evaluate it in that context. And 2, I need to seriously consider upping my total points that I invest into VVs (in quick review most I have engaged discussion with seem to be spending a lot more on their VV/SSKT than I have even tried - which now that I think about it is shocking. They do amazing for me every time, I probably should be investing more into what's giving me better returns)

Realityburn wrote:

I've considered making a force that is primarily a SSKT with 30 Vanguard Vets combat squaded into 6 5 man units and 20 Scouts into 4 units.

Yea, this makes a lot of sense. It plays right into what we are talking about, and seems very fluffy to boot. I would consider running it with one of the other formations that gives more scouts/speeders to sit on objectives, since I am not sure 20 scouts/4 units is enough to control the board (when you're VVs are going to be "stuck in" most of the game).

Race Bannon wrote:

Shshshshhhhh! that's in the works

Oh my. How can you tease me like that. So cruel. I demand you PM me details

Edited November 30, 2016 by ltvyper

[Alcyon]

That logic is fascinating, ltvyper, I totally agree with regards to army size and percentage. You could even think about what types of targets you expect your enemy to have, and what kinds of points costs you are aiming to destroy using your VVs of whatever cost themselves. 

 

Re: the 30 VVs + 20 Scouts army, an SSKT + Stormbringer Squadron could be a cool setup; that'd give you regular LS to run with Multi-meltas for A/T, and up to three Scout Squads with LSS per formation, which have obsec and can disembark after the LSS moves 12". That said, it's a lot of extra points for those; you could instead run a CAD with Telion or a Techmarine, and just infiltrate the scouts onto objectives. Your massive VV force should be engaging the OpFor and your 50pt Scout Squads can just camp out without needing to be mobile. I wonder how many SSKTs you could fit into 1850pts...

[Mr. Poe]

You guys are making me want to run on ebay and buy up all the available vanguards. 

[Race Bannon]

Support your local store owner ^_^

[Claws and Effect]

I was actually thinking the 50-man SSKT, and a CAD with a Librarian on a bike and 2 min strength bike squads. Then a lone captain in a Strike Force Command formation for my warlord, assuming I have the points for it.

[Alcyon]

I don't think you can run a Strike Force Command as a standalone formation outside of the Gladius-style detachments. But the Librarian can just be your warlord anyway. In fact, you don't need a CAD at all - you can just fill 1850 with multiple SSKTs.

[Mr. Poe]

No you cannot as far as I am aware.