Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Mellow]

Randomly, even the Stone and Iron men got a mention in what was essentially cave paintings. I always enjoy things like that getting a line or two.

[m0nolith]

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:17 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

Do any of those arguments have decent points? Or is it the 4chan whiners complaining about shilling again?

This happens every time a decent 30k novel comes out. There is a dichotomy people have to be aware of and its also one of the main things why I consider the HH series to be superior to the 40k series, at least right now, and that dichotomy is the following:

40k is bolter porn, 30k is not.

Of course this hasn't always been the case, and of course there are exceptions to both rules, but generally speaking this is the way it is right now.

So this being the case, there are people out there who crave that bolter porn pulp series type of book, and BL has put out many MANY books to cater to that audience, but I and many others dont. We like books like MoM, books where the development of the characters and an intriguing story are its most attractive properties.

You know, literature n stuff

[Petitioner's City]

Also isn't Drach'nyen born from the death of the Emperor's father by his uncle? It is the daemon created by a Cain and Abel situation, right? That's why it is so powerful, it is from the Emperor's own origin point? Or did I totally misread that?

[m0nolith]

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:22 PM, Mellow said:

Randomly, even the Stone and Iron men got a mention in what was essentially cave paintings. I always enjoy things like that getting a line or two.

What really intrigued me was that the Stone men were separate from regular humans. Since 3rd ed I thought that the Stone men were an analogue to regular humans, the contrast to the Iron Men.

I guess I got that part of the fluff wrong all these years. I hope this concept gets explored a little more in the future.

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:41 PM, Petitioner's City said:

Also isn't Drach'nyen born from the death of the Emperor's father by his uncle? It is the daemon created by a Cain and Abel situation, right? That's why it is so powerful, it is from the Emperor's own origin point? Or did I totally misread that?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

No, Big E mentions that the first murder happened thousands of years before he was born.

 

[deathspectersgt7]

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:39 PM, m0nolith said:

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:17 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

Do any of those arguments have decent points? Or is it the 4chan whiners complaining about shilling again?

This happens every time a decent 30k novel comes out. There is a dichotomy people have to be aware of and its also one of the main things why I consider the HH series to be superior to the 40k series, at least right now, and that dichotomy is the following:

40k is bolter porn, 30k is not.

Of course this hasn't always been the case, and of course there are exceptions to both rules, but generally speaking this is the way it is right now.

So this being the case, there are people out there who crave that bolter porn pulp series type of book, and BL has put out many MANY books to cater to that audience, but I and many others dont. We like books like MoM, books where the development of the characters and an intriguing story are its most attractive properties.

You know, literature n stuff

Having just finished MoM this afternoon have to say this is Best 30k book I have read. Besides Horus Rising so to the Author .

[b1soul]

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:41 PM, Petitioner said:

Also isn't Drach'nyen born from the death of the Emperor's father by his uncle? It is the daemon created by a Cain and Abel situation, right? That's why it is so powerful, it is from the Emperor's own origin point? Or did I totally misread that?

I believe you've misread

 

Drach'nyen is born from the first human murder, which happens to be between brothers. Murder weapon is a wooden spear, stabbed into the torso from the front. Time is when "humans" owe as much to apes as modern humans.

 

The Emperor's uncle kills his father with a crude bronze blade from behind, a blow to the back of the head.

 

It would not make sense for the first human murder to occur in the late stone age/early bronze age. That would be too recent.

 

Drach'nyen isn't born from the murder of the Emp's father, but that murder falls directly under Drach's jurisdiction so to speak. I believe Drach is a daemon of murder but in particular of fratricide, which is what a lot of the HH is about

[Petitioner's City]

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:41 PM, m0nolith said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:22 PM, Mellow said:

Randomly, even the Stone and Iron men got a mention in what was essentially cave paintings. I always enjoy things like that getting a line or two.

What really intrigued me was that the Stone men were separate from regular humans. Since 3rd ed I thought that the Stone men were an analogue to regular humans, the contrast to the Iron Men.

I guess I got that part of the fluff wrong all these years. I hope this concept gets explored a little more in the future.

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:41 PM, Petitioner's City said:

Also isn't Drach'nyen born from the death of the Emperor's father by his uncle? It is the daemon created by a Cain and Abel situation, right? That's why it is so powerful, it is from the Emperor's own origin point? Or did I totally misread that?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

No, Big E mentions that the first murder happened thousands of years before he was born.

 

 

 

 

  On 12/2/2016 at 1:46 AM, b1soul said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:41 PM, Petitioner's City said:

Also isn't Drach'nyen born from the death of the Emperor's father by his uncle? It is the daemon created by a Cain and Abel situation, right? That's why it is so powerful, it is from the Emperor's own origin point? Or did I totally misread that?

I believe you've misread

 

Drach'nyen is born from the first human murder, which happens to be between brothers. Murder weapon is a wooden spear, stabbed into the torso from the front. Time is when "humans" owe as much to apes as modern humans.

 

The Emperor's uncle kills his father with a crude bronze blade from behind, a blow to the back of the head.

 

It would not make sense for the first human murder to occur in the late stone age/early bronze age. That would be too recent.

 

 

Merci both! I was wondering if there was a distinction like consciousness being depicted - an actual 'murder' versus animalistic killing (hence my Cain and Abel-like uncle-killing-father misreading). I guess I imagined that Drach'nyen was Something very Barnett Newman:

 

 

 

But ah well! It's more 2001...

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypEaGQb6dJk

 

 

Although still very much the modernist 'consciousness' sentiment that Newman also represents :) 

[b1soul]

I was misled by the Reddit thread. Someone claimed the E was the first murderer's nephew.

 

When I actually started reading...I was like nope, the hominid stabbing and the bronze head-bashing are clearly two separate events

[Perrin]

  On 12/1/2016 at 6:03 PM, LJF said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I needed some time to process the book. I would share my thoughts earlier but unfortunatelly this was the first ADB book that I endured rather than enjoyed. I liked couple of things, but disliked many others.

 

Pros

The emperor was exactly how I expected and wanted him to be. This novel only confirmed that he is more human rather than some perfect god deserving of worship.

 

There were couple of cool characters with some potential namely Ra's mom and End of Empires. Shame we didn't get more of them

 

The final duel wasn't that bad

 

 

Cons

Story - literally nothing happens. Most of the book is just a build up with little pay off at the end. We learned that there was this brutal conflict where during these five years the Custodes and SoS were being slaughtered by thousands and yet none of this gets in! I just didn't quite feel the immense gravity of the situation. There were times where I was actually beginning to picture all these endless daemon hordes just waiting politely before delivering the final blow so the Imperium could spend weeks to gather all available help, get downstairs and join the fray.

 

Speaking of all available help there is a Space Wolves watchpack sitting on Terra yet it wasn't mentioned even once. I think a bunch of SW with their high magic resistance would be rather useful against these warp creatures. And how the hell did the traitor marines and their titans get into the webway? Did I miss something? This is where the cool 40k mysteries end and plot holes begin and the author crossed that line rather significantly.

 

Too many characters and POVs. There isn't a main protagonist even remotely likable as Talos or Khayon and I certainly didn't like how in basically each chapter we jump to a completely new character without the previous one getting properly established. As a result almost all of them felt pointless and forgettable not unlike those in a mediocre SMB novel written by some newcomer. I would have liked it so much more if the only POVs were just Ra, Krole plus some occasional End of Empires/emperor scene.

 

Most of the emperor scenes were just flashbacks, it became rather stale.

 

Overall a disappointingly uneventful and unimpactful book. Perhaps in the future ADB should just stick to the traitors.

 

5/10

 

 

Have to add that I completely agree with LJF's review/summary above, although I'd have given it 6 or 7 out of 10, as it was very well written as all of ADB's work is.

 

I'm also quite surprised with the reaction from the forum, as I remember there being quite an uproar on the release of Prospero Burns due to the amount of the book that actually covered Prospero burning. Although I didn't agree then, surely this novel has the same issue? For a novel titled Master of Mankind I felt a bit short changed on actual Big E content.

 

I don't regret buying or reading it all, but I don't feel that this is even ADB's best work of the HH, let alone best overall as some forumites are crowing.

 

 

Not related to the actual story, but did anyone find the grammatical editing wasn't great? Not sure if it's just the ebook version, but quite a few mistyped words etc.

[mc warhammer]

  On 12/1/2016 at 6:59 PM, LJF said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 6:12 PM, Mellow said:

 

"Literally nothing happens"

 

That's a tad harsh. I don't agree with that point of view. I feel like you read an entirely different Novel to the one I did.

My point isn't that nothing happens, my point is that it FEELS like nothing happens. Like I said, the gravity of the situation is immense but it's communicated very poorly. We spend most of the time on Terra walking, talking, recruiting and little else. I'm sorry but the tagline "War in the webway" is misleading as heck.

 

Actually the more I think about it the more it reminds of Prospero Burns. We learn some interesting hints and tidbits about SW backround but it still isn't an actual SW novel.

some people prefer plot driven over character driven stories. nothing wrong with that, though a little awareness of that distinction goes a long way.

[mc warhammer]

  On 12/2/2016 at 3:32 AM, Perrin said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 6:03 PM, LJF said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I needed some time to process the book. I would share my thoughts earlier but unfortunatelly this was the first ADB book that I endured rather than enjoyed. I liked couple of things, but disliked many others.

 

Pros

The emperor was exactly how I expected and wanted him to be. This novel only confirmed that he is more human rather than some perfect god deserving of worship.

 

There were couple of cool characters with some potential namely Ra's mom and End of Empires. Shame we didn't get more of them

 

The final duel wasn't that bad

 

 

Cons

Story - literally nothing happens. Most of the book is just a build up with little pay off at the end. We learned that there was this brutal conflict where during these five years the Custodes and SoS were being slaughtered by thousands and yet none of this gets in! I just didn't quite feel the immense gravity of the situation. There were times where I was actually beginning to picture all these endless daemon hordes just waiting politely before delivering the final blow so the Imperium could spend weeks to gather all available help, get downstairs and join the fray.

 

Speaking of all available help there is a Space Wolves watchpack sitting on Terra yet it wasn't mentioned even once. I think a bunch of SW with their high magic resistance would be rather useful against these warp creatures. And how the hell did the traitor marines and their titans get into the webway? Did I miss something? This is where the cool 40k mysteries end and plot holes begin and the author crossed that line rather significantly.

 

Too many characters and POVs. There isn't a main protagonist even remotely likable as Talos or Khayon and I certainly didn't like how in basically each chapter we jump to a completely new character without the previous one getting properly established. As a result almost all of them felt pointless and forgettable not unlike those in a mediocre SMB novel written by some newcomer. I would have liked it so much more if the only POVs were just Ra, Krole plus some occasional End of Empires/emperor scene.

 

Most of the emperor scenes were just flashbacks, it became rather stale.

 

Overall a disappointingly uneventful and unimpactful book. Perhaps in the future ADB should just stick to the traitors.

 

5/10

 

 

Have to add that I completely agree with LJF's review/summary above, although I'd have given it 6 or 7 out of 10, as it was very well written as all of ADB's work is.

 

I'm also quite surprised with the reaction from the forum, as I remember there being quite an uproar on the release of Prospero Burns due to the amount of the book that actually covered Prospero burning. Although I didn't agree then, surely this novel has the same issue? For a novel titled Master of Mankind I felt a bit short changed on actual Big E content.

 

I don't regret buying or reading it all, but I don't feel that this is even ADB's best work of the HH, let alone best overall as some forumites are crowing.

 

 

Not related to the actual story, but did anyone find the grammatical editing wasn't great? Not sure if it's just the ebook version, but quite a few mistyped words etc.

never really understood the gripe over titles not accurately portraying the content. "Horus Rising" was mostly about Loken not Horus and "Galaxy in Flames" didn't have a literal galactic bonfire.

 

It sounds as if MoM is about the emperor even if it doesn't always feature him. sounds like mission accomplished

[drooling blood]

Finished reading a few days ago. Its doesn't seem like his best, but not the worst. A few great moments and a few head scratchers. But I'm still thinking about it,
so objective achieved, I spose.

Guess I should spoiler this bit just in case.

  Reveal hidden contents

The idea of Draknemppgghh (Evil dead, cause spelling) was pretty cool.

As was Land and Zephon. I think ADB is going to, or is in line to scribble something for the Sons of Baal. He seems to like them.

Though I have a theory, that Im not going to like about the death of Sanguinius. (it involves GWs circular, same thing, change the name story telling, with Horus' attempt to rid himself of the popular one)

Land being a bit pissed cause they call it the raider and his obvious reasoning of why a monkey had a tail was a bit of a chuckle.
Im not sure if the contempt the Custodes have for Zephon is due to the fact hes combat ineffective, a possible traitor, just a regular marine, a lesson from Malcador or the plot device like the human in SM books that SM start respecting. Its to early, with too many new things introduced to tell yet.

I did like that the Emp will throw ANY and EVERYONE under the bus, when he finds a use or is finished with them. just like a tyrant would. He tells WHOEVER hes talking to, that theyre the most important. But theyre all just numbers.
Thunder warriors gone. Astartes, your time is limited. Cant have a purely psykic race with the SOS around, your times coming. Even his golden sons get a place on the chopping block.
But to everyones faces hes mister magnanimous. Big brown eyes and a golden light. Never once has he told the primarchs hes not their father, hes their warlord.
But behind their backs theyre just numbers. Though Angron could just be the exception to the rule, as usual. Yeah he told them to knock it off at Nikea, and didnt really explain anything. Unless it was off pages. (Now theres a idea for a novella. The Emp explaining to his primarchs and representatives in a back room about why. But doing so would probably throw a spannermek in the machine.)

Now the Emps grand plan was a bit really. The super highway. All those planets people out there will still be contributing to the khaos powers. Joe hive scummer still wants Bob hive scummers samich, Lord Dong still wants more power. So Daemons will still be about. Unless theyre all to be sacrificed on the alter of Humanity eventually.

If you move everyone into the webway. Then you have to reconquer the galaxy when you come out.
Which makes Magnus' little bunch of cave dwellers speech at Nikea was a little glimpse into the future. Though in the Emps version the light bringer got killed.

Which could mean Magnus wanted to stand and face the dark, but the Emp wanted the hide away version.
I can just picture the Emp listening to that. Screaming to himself, Shut up, shut up, shut up Magnus. Your telling EVERYONE my plan.

But the dumbest thing I read was in the epilogue.
"Another enemy will come to take his place. I see that now"

See that now. Now. NOW. So the Emps has been around for 400000 +/- years and hes just realizing this now.

Emperor on a bicycle

[Mellow]

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:41 PM, m0nolith said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:22 PM, Mellow said:

Randomly, even the Stone and Iron men got a mention in what was essentially cave paintings. I always enjoy things like that getting a line or two.

What really intrigued me was that the Stone men were separate from regular humans. Since 3rd ed I thought that the Stone men were an analogue to regular humans, the contrast to the Iron Men.

I guess I got that part of the fluff wrong all these years

The Stone Men were essentially made of Silicon. Artificial life created to be similar to the organic Cylons.

[skarn]

  On 12/1/2016 at 10:17 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

Do any of those arguments have decent points? Or is it the 4chan whiners complaining about shilling again?

I've never read or posted on 4chan in my life, or even know what shilling is. 

And I love almost all of ABD's work and have talked to him on FB a couple of times about it. I'll continue to purchase his books.

I just didn't like this novel, for the same reason a lot of other people on here. Other people seem to love it, and that's great. Most of the discourse on here has been pretty respectful, so its not really fair to discount so many opinions because you don't personally agree.

[Mellow]

Also interesting is that The Emperor comments saying "do you ever see my lips move"

 

Makes me think he only communicates with his Psychic voice pretending to have a normal one.

 

Probably because he is a filthy Xeno. Probably an Old one or something and he doesn't physically have a mouth.

 

Heresy.

[b1soul]

  On 12/2/2016 at 3:32 AM, Perrin said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 6:03 PM, LJF said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I needed some time to process the book. I would share my thoughts earlier but unfortunatelly this was the first ADB book that I endured rather than enjoyed. I liked couple of things, but disliked many others.

 

Pros

The emperor was exactly how I expected and wanted him to be. This novel only confirmed that he is more human rather than some perfect god deserving of worship.

 

There were couple of cool characters with some potential namely Ra's mom and End of Empires. Shame we didn't get more of them

 

The final duel wasn't that bad

 

 

Cons

Story - literally nothing happens. Most of the book is just a build up with little pay off at the end. We learned that there was this brutal conflict where during these five years the Custodes and SoS were being slaughtered by thousands and yet none of this gets in! I just didn't quite feel the immense gravity of the situation. There were times where I was actually beginning to picture all these endless daemon hordes just waiting politely before delivering the final blow so the Imperium could spend weeks to gather all available help, get downstairs and join the fray.

 

Speaking of all available help there is a Space Wolves watchpack sitting on Terra yet it wasn't mentioned even once. I think a bunch of SW with their high magic resistance would be rather useful against these warp creatures. And how the hell did the traitor marines and their titans get into the webway? Did I miss something? This is where the cool 40k mysteries end and plot holes begin and the author crossed that line rather significantly.

 

Too many characters and POVs. There isn't a main protagonist even remotely likable as Talos or Khayon and I certainly didn't like how in basically each chapter we jump to a completely new character without the previous one getting properly established. As a result almost all of them felt pointless and forgettable not unlike those in a mediocre SMB novel written by some newcomer. I would have liked it so much more if the only POVs were just Ra, Krole plus some occasional End of Empires/emperor scene.

 

Most of the emperor scenes were just flashbacks, it became rather stale.

 

Overall a disappointingly uneventful and unimpactful book. Perhaps in the future ADB should just stick to the traitors.

 

5/10

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Have to add that I completely agree with LJF's review/summary above, although I'd have given it 6 or 7 out of 10, as it was very well written as all of ADB's work is.

I'm also quite surprised with the reaction from the forum, as I remember there being quite an uproar on the release of Prospero Burns due to the amount of the book that actually covered Prospero burning. Although I didn't agree then, surely this novel has the same issue? For a novel titled Master of Mankind I felt a bit short changed on actual Big E content.

I don't regret buying or reading it all, but I don't feel that this is even ADB's best work of the HH, let alone best overall as some forumites are crowing.

Not related to the actual story, but did anyone find the grammatical editing wasn't great? Not sure if it's just the ebook version, but quite a few mistyped words etc.

I agree on several points

 

1. Prose is excellent, as is typical of ADB

 

2. Too many characters with their own chapters...I fought the urge to skip some

 

3. Ra, Land, and Zephon are very interesting...Dio not so much

 

4. Loved the flashbacks

 

5. Would've been cool to see either Kadai or Jasaric die, rather than start with simply Ra as the last tribune

 

6. Portrayal of Drach'nyen is very cool

 

My own opinion...

 

Not crazy about the implication that Custodes are able to massacre SM as SM are able to massacre humans

 

I liked Dan's more subtle distinction in Blood Games, i.e. physically Custodes are moderately superior...but differences primarily mental

[Robster The Lobster]

  On 12/2/2016 at 10:06 AM, b1soul said:

 

  On 12/2/2016 at 3:32 AM, Perrin said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 6:03 PM, LJF said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I needed some time to process the book. I would share my thoughts earlier but unfortunatelly this was the first ADB book that I endured rather than enjoyed. I liked couple of things, but disliked many others.

 

Pros

The emperor was exactly how I expected and wanted him to be. This novel only confirmed that he is more human rather than some perfect god deserving of worship.

 

There were couple of cool characters with some potential namely Ra's mom and End of Empires. Shame we didn't get more of them

 

The final duel wasn't that bad

 

 

Cons

Story - literally nothing happens. Most of the book is just a build up with little pay off at the end. We learned that there was this brutal conflict where during these five years the Custodes and SoS were being slaughtered by thousands and yet none of this gets in! I just didn't quite feel the immense gravity of the situation. There were times where I was actually beginning to picture all these endless daemon hordes just waiting politely before delivering the final blow so the Imperium could spend weeks to gather all available help, get downstairs and join the fray.

 

Speaking of all available help there is a Space Wolves watchpack sitting on Terra yet it wasn't mentioned even once. I think a bunch of SW with their high magic resistance would be rather useful against these warp creatures. And how the hell did the traitor marines and their titans get into the webway? Did I miss something? This is where the cool 40k mysteries end and plot holes begin and the author crossed that line rather significantly.

 

Too many characters and POVs. There isn't a main protagonist even remotely likable as Talos or Khayon and I certainly didn't like how in basically each chapter we jump to a completely new character without the previous one getting properly established. As a result almost all of them felt pointless and forgettable not unlike those in a mediocre SMB novel written by some newcomer. I would have liked it so much more if the only POVs were just Ra, Krole plus some occasional End of Empires/emperor scene.

 

Most of the emperor scenes were just flashbacks, it became rather stale.

 

Overall a disappointingly uneventful and unimpactful book. Perhaps in the future ADB should just stick to the traitors.

 

5/10

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Have to add that I completely agree with LJF's review/summary above, although I'd have given it 6 or 7 out of 10, as it was very well written as all of ADB's work is.

I'm also quite surprised with the reaction from the forum, as I remember there being quite an uproar on the release of Prospero Burns due to the amount of the book that actually covered Prospero burning. Although I didn't agree then, surely this novel has the same issue? For a novel titled Master of Mankind I felt a bit short changed on actual Big E content.

I don't regret buying or reading it all, but I don't feel that this is even ADB's best work of the HH, let alone best overall as some forumites are crowing.

Not related to the actual story, but did anyone find the grammatical editing wasn't great? Not sure if it's just the ebook version, but quite a few mistyped words etc.

I agree on several points

 

1. Prose is excellent, as is typical of ADB

 

2. Too many characters with their own chapters...I fought the urge to skip some

 

3. Ra, Land, and Zephon are very interesting...Dio not so much

 

4. Loved the flashbacks

 

5. Would've been cool to see either Kadai or Jasaric die, rather than start with simply Ra as the last tribune

 

6. Portrayal of Drach'nyen is very cool

 

My own opinion...

 

Not crazy about the implication that Custodes are able to massacre SM as SM are able to massacre humans

 

I liked Dan's more subtle distinction in Blood Games, i.e. physically Custodes are moderately superior...but differences primarily mental

I'm a huge World eater fan, they were the the faction that got me into the game, and as a concept they speak to me. Which is why I rarely argue or use them in conversation.So take this with a grain of bias.

 

In the case of custodes slaughtering SM, is again the world eater drawing the short straw. They are abit to often used as the lesser threat, something to keep the protagonists occupied until the real threat.

 

They have such an obvious flaw, that it it's so easy to use it. That the benefits of being a SM berzerkers is often forgotten

 

That said, this is not something I generally want to accuse A D-B off. Though it always hurt when I see my world eaters be threated as Canon fodder.

[HeritorA]

  On 12/1/2016 at 7:05 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

The novel isnt really about the war in the webway. It's the last 30mins of Two Towers in the webway. Battles and descriptions of the five years of war will come from forge world. Also there's a line in the beginning of the book about how the traitors and Titans got in. The webway isn't closed off, it's accessible from any former eldar world with the right combination of sorcery and knowledge. If the eldar can move capital ships in some of its passages then you could easily fit traitor titans and tanks through others. The Ignatum Warlord was brought in on grav sleds and reassembled.

Three key events happen in this book:

- The Unspoken Sanction begins, meaning the Emperor can take to the field as long as there is a large enough source of psykers for the throne, but I'm still unsure of whether or not he actually has to stay there now if he shut the gate behind them. If he doesn't have to sit the throne for the rest of the series that means we are going to see him lead the actual last two years of the war.

-Drach'nyen is born, setting the stage for Abaddon's victory (thanks cavemen). This is more relevent to the setting as a whole than the Horus Heresy, but it's inclusion is handled far better than 'Pharos explodes and draws in the Tyranids'

- The Aresian Path is lost permanently, jeopardizing the alliance between Mars and Terra, the only alliance that allows the Imperium to function. The Imperials will have to retake Mars to maintain the alliance and hold it during the Solar War, meaning Terra will be weaker during the Siege holding two worlds instead of one. The two front war is the least desirable course of action in any strategic scenario for the defenders.

If it would have been about direct war in the webway - bolter porn and more bolter porn it would have been bad and I would have agree with 5 out of 10. But as it has a lot of philosophical ideas and views and shown at last the length of sacrifices, needed to 'save' humanity - tis 11 out of 10!

  On 12/1/2016 at 7:05 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

The novel isnt really about the war in the webway. It's the last 30mins of Two Towers in the webway. Battles and descriptions of the five years of war will come from forge world. Also there's a line in the beginning of the book about how the traitors and Titans got in. The webway isn't closed off, it's accessible from any former eldar world with the right combination of sorcery and knowledge. If the eldar can move capital ships in some of its passages then you could easily fit traitor titans and tanks through others. The Ignatum Warlord was brought in on grav sleds and reassembled.

Three key events happen in this book:

- The Unspoken Sanction begins, meaning the Emperor can take to the field as long as there is a large enough source of psykers for the throne, but I'm still unsure of whether or not he actually has to stay there now if he shut the gate behind them. If he doesn't have to sit the throne for the rest of the series that means we are going to see him lead the actual last two years of the war.

-Drach'nyen is born, setting the stage for Abaddon's victory (thanks cavemen). This is more relevent to the setting as a whole than the Horus Heresy, but it's inclusion is handled far better than 'Pharos explodes and draws in the Tyranids'

- The Aresian Path is lost permanently, jeopardizing the alliance between Mars and Terra, the only alliance that allows the Imperium to function. The Imperials will have to retake Mars to maintain the alliance and hold it during the Solar War, meaning Terra will be weaker during the Siege holding two worlds instead of one. The two front war is the least desirable course of action in any strategic scenario for the defenders.

Just the mention of this 3 are eventful beyond measure! Unspoken Sanction - just wow, first in a long list, End of Empires - first murder ever man, The Aresian Path!

  On 12/1/2016 at 7:56 PM, Robster The Lobster said:

He also wrote titan combat in Helsreach. My point is that he does it really well, it get my imagination flowing every time I read it. Just because it has happened before doesn´t mean that it shouldn´t be used again, or expanded upon, if its good.

Otherwise space battles with super soldier would be pretty boring by this point

boring??? Heretek - tis one of the best universes of void warfare and we still does not get enough and you are bored???? Heretek - Inquisition requested!

[Sandlemad]

I liked the approach to the war in the webway. The weary end of a lengthy siege, it's been going... decently so far but the pressure is ramping up and the custodes/SoS are losing ground. Focusing on the period when the siege is breaking is a valid choice for a novel with a focus on the emperor, and a better one than dragging through years of back and forth.

 

What I would like, however, would be some further stuff about the WE, SoH and WB that joined the daemons in the assault on the imperial forces. It wasn't the focus of this book and that's fine (there are a heap of POV characters but when they're as fascinating as Zephon or Land or Baroness Jaya that is excellent) but it could really do with a short story.

 

Who ordered them into the webway? Was it masterminded by Lorgar or Horus, or even Erebus? They were bringing Fellblades and the Legio Audax, it's a significant allocation of marines and war machines.

How did it feel for the Sons of Horus and World Eaters to be fighting at the side of fully manifested swarms of daemons? Was it the final straw for any lingering shreds of imperial truth? Did the some legionaries finally question the rightness of Horus's cause? Fine, the World Eaters were probably too mad to think about it but the Word Bearers had surely done it before, how was it different for them?

Did they know it was a borderline suicide mission, like at Calth? Did they have any reasonable idea as to what they were getting into? Literally, did they understand what the webway was and the significance of the heavy imperial presence in it? What did they think about finally crossing swords with the Custodes? Did they know they were, towards the end, literally a few hours' march from Terra?

 

All fairly outside the remit of this book but worth covering somehow.

[shandwen]

I loved the first 90% of tgis book, and loathed the last 10%.

My only functional concept on the happenings of this book is that the Emp desires to be a chaos god. Things do not make sense, and I expected so much more from the ending.

[Petitioner's City]

  On 12/2/2016 at 12:09 PM, Sandlemad said:

I liked the approach to the war in the webway. The weary end of a lengthy siege, it's been going... decently so far but the pressure is ramping up and the custodes/SoS are losing ground. Focusing on the period when the siege is breaking is a valid choice for a novel with a focus on the emperor, and a better one than dragging through years of back and forth.

 

What I would like, however, would be some further stuff about the WE, SoH and WB that joined the daemons in the assault on the imperial forces. It wasn't the focus of this book and that's fine (there are a heap of POV characters but when they're as fascinating as Zephon or Land or Baroness Jaya that is excellent) but it could really do with a short story.

 

Who ordered them into the webway? Was it masterminded by Lorgar or Horus, or even Erebus? They were bringing Fellblades and the Legio Audax, it's a significant allocation of marines and war machines.

How did it feel for the Sons of Horus and World Eaters to be fighting at the side of fully manifested swarms of daemons? Was it the final straw for any lingering shreds of imperial truth? Did the some legionaries finally question the rightness of Horus's cause? Fine, the World Eaters were probably too mad to think about it but the Word Bearers had surely done it before, how was it different for them?

Did they know it was a borderline suicide mission, like at Calth? Did they have any reasonable idea as to what they were getting into? Literally, did they understand what the webway was and the significance of the heavy imperial presence in it? What did they think about finally crossing swords with the Custodes? Did they know they were, towards the end, literally a few hours' march from Terra?

 

All fairly outside the remit of this book but worth covering somehow.

 

Yes I completely agree with this! I feel like we have lost sight of this change in the series and these vital questions from the traitor perspectives. These are essential, fascinating. MoM provided these for the Custodes and the Sisters and the Mechanicum in a way no one had before, but I hope we can have more of this and more of those on the other side - the ontological and ethical questions of the war. I presume this is year 4 of the heresy or is it 5? I'm not sure when Magnus breaks the Webway anymore; what has happened in that time?

[Perrin]

  On 12/2/2016 at 4:24 AM, mc warhammer said:

 

  On 12/2/2016 at 3:32 AM, Perrin said:

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 6:03 PM, LJF said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I needed some time to process the book. I would share my thoughts earlier but unfortunatelly this was the first ADB book that I endured rather than enjoyed. I liked couple of things, but disliked many others.

 

Pros

The emperor was exactly how I expected and wanted him to be. This novel only confirmed that he is more human rather than some perfect god deserving of worship.

 

There were couple of cool characters with some potential namely Ra's mom and End of Empires. Shame we didn't get more of them

 

The final duel wasn't that bad

 

 

Cons

Story - literally nothing happens. Most of the book is just a build up with little pay off at the end. We learned that there was this brutal conflict where during these five years the Custodes and SoS were being slaughtered by thousands and yet none of this gets in! I just didn't quite feel the immense gravity of the situation. There were times where I was actually beginning to picture all these endless daemon hordes just waiting politely before delivering the final blow so the Imperium could spend weeks to gather all available help, get downstairs and join the fray.

 

Speaking of all available help there is a Space Wolves watchpack sitting on Terra yet it wasn't mentioned even once. I think a bunch of SW with their high magic resistance would be rather useful against these warp creatures. And how the hell did the traitor marines and their titans get into the webway? Did I miss something? This is where the cool 40k mysteries end and plot holes begin and the author crossed that line rather significantly.

 

Too many characters and POVs. There isn't a main protagonist even remotely likable as Talos or Khayon and I certainly didn't like how in basically each chapter we jump to a completely new character without the previous one getting properly established. As a result almost all of them felt pointless and forgettable not unlike those in a mediocre SMB novel written by some newcomer. I would have liked it so much more if the only POVs were just Ra, Krole plus some occasional End of Empires/emperor scene.

 

Most of the emperor scenes were just flashbacks, it became rather stale.

 

Overall a disappointingly uneventful and unimpactful book. Perhaps in the future ADB should just stick to the traitors.

 

5/10

 

 

Have to add that I completely agree with LJF's review/summary above, although I'd have given it 6 or 7 out of 10, as it was very well written as all of ADB's work is.

 

I'm also quite surprised with the reaction from the forum, as I remember there being quite an uproar on the release of Prospero Burns due to the amount of the book that actually covered Prospero burning. Although I didn't agree then, surely this novel has the same issue? For a novel titled Master of Mankind I felt a bit short changed on actual Big E content.

 

I don't regret buying or reading it all, but I don't feel that this is even ADB's best work of the HH, let alone best overall as some forumites are crowing.

 

 

Not related to the actual story, but did anyone find the grammatical editing wasn't great? Not sure if it's just the ebook version, but quite a few mistyped words etc.

never really understood the gripe over titles not accurately portraying the content. "Horus Rising" was mostly about Loken not Horus and "Galaxy in Flames" didn't have a literal galactic bonfire.

 

It sounds as if MoM is about the emperor even if it doesn't always feature him. sounds like mission accomplished

 

 

I agree that the title gripe is nonsense, and PB is one of my favourite HH stories. I mentioned it because I think if this was written by a different author, even if it was word-for-word the exact same story, posters would be complaining that there isn't enough of Him for a book titled Master of Mankind.

 

To be honest, I don't really feel that this story is about the Emperor at all. It's mainly about exploring the Custodes and SoS in slightly more depth that we've seen before, and a very tiny sliver of the Webway War. Literally the last couple of weeks or so of the 5 year constant battle.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, I didn't feel like the ending explained things very well. I took it to mean that the Webway portal in the Imperial Dungeon was now closed and sealed, which would be an interesting change as it means the Emperor should now be able to actually participate in the Heresy with (by my calculations) 2 years still to go until the actual Siege. However, other posters read the same scene differently and believe that it shows he has to stay on the Throne to keep it sealed.

 

It also didn't explain why the humanity using the Webway dream is now over and mankind is doomed, as the Emperor says. Why can't he destroy Horus then find an entrance to another part of the Webway that hasn't been infested?

 

[Mellow]

  Reveal hidden contents

He certainly didn't seem to care that he was going to win or lose. Which is odd for one reason. All through his life He killed people that challenged him. Now Horus comes along and say he killed him with no real injuries. He's saying that there will always be someone else to fight. But that has never been an issue before as He has always fought everyone. The point was He wanted absolute control of Humanity to help the psychic awakening occur in a controlled way. I don't see how having more "baddies" was ever an issue as he had always historically just got rid of them.

[HeritorA]

  On 12/2/2016 at 12:09 PM, Sandlemad said:

I liked the approach to the war in the webway. The weary end of a lengthy siege, it's been going... decently so far but the pressure is ramping up and the custodes/SoS are losing ground. Focusing on the period when the siege is breaking is a valid choice for a novel with a focus on the emperor, and a better one than dragging through years of back and forth.

 

What I would like, however, would be some further stuff about the WE, SoH and WB that joined the daemons in the assault on the imperial forces. It wasn't the focus of this book and that's fine (there are a heap of POV characters but when they're as fascinating as Zephon or Land or Baroness Jaya that is excellent) but it could really do with a short story.

 

Who ordered them into the webway? Was it masterminded by Lorgar or Horus, or even Erebus? They were bringing Fellblades and the Legio Audax, it's a significant allocation of marines and war machines.

How did it feel for the Sons of Horus and World Eaters to be fighting at the side of fully manifested swarms of daemons? Was it the final straw for any lingering shreds of imperial truth? Did the some legionaries finally question the rightness of Horus's cause? Fine, the World Eaters were probably too mad to think about it but the Word Bearers had surely done it before, how was it different for them?

Did they know it was a borderline suicide mission, like at Calth? Did they have any reasonable idea as to what they were getting into? Literally, did they understand what the webway was and the significance of the heavy imperial presence in it? What did they think about finally crossing swords with the Custodes? Did they know they were, towards the end, literally a few hours' march from Terra?

 

All fairly outside the remit of this book but worth covering somehow.

It was actually answered by Aaron himself - 'Sent to the webway by that minister of Chaos kid Lorgar'

[drooling blood]

So the World Eaters should have always been a small Legion.

Theyve been grabbing Guillimans kids and saying stop punching yourself. Having a tiff with the Alphas.

Now theyre dying in the web.

 

Im surprised there will be any left to be the first through Terras walls.