Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Marshal Rohr]

The World Eaters are noted in several sources as having one of the fastest transformation processes of any legion and the Heresy only cut the breaks for them. If anything they will be the largest legion at the siege.

[drooling blood]

Maybe. Im not buying it though. Theyre the Orks of the Legions.

[Marshal Rohr]

Did you read retribution? It explained their recruitment process really well. They are only the 'orks of the legions' in certain descriptions. In the objective macro view they are incredibly potent at the tactical level.

[Fire Golem]

But there's countless Orks? I'm not sure what you're saying.

[Marshal Rohr]

Orks actually get smarter and more advanced the more of them there are. LG posted a metric where more than a billion united Orks would be building skyscrapers and void ships with no problem. Codex material shows them between a few hundred thousand and a million or so, and that's where their range is represented but when present in billions and trillions they are a match for any of the other races.

[drooling blood]

But there's countless Orks? I'm not sure what you're saying.

In that theres apparently countless War hounds World Eaters all over the universe and they die like Orks. Theyre everywhere and get shot to :cuss while closing to chain axe range. You know the punching bags.

 

Yeah well theres not a million WE, and they die just as fast as a Ork.

In the scope of the hersey, which is what? 7 years and will probably end up being 20 In real life universe years.

The amount that die wouldnt recover the losses.

 

But I guess like Sanguinius holding the gate solo, I guess theres room for one of the last WE to be the first through a 2m gap.

Anyway just one of the many problems I had with the book.

[Marshal Rohr]

I mean by that metric more humans have died in movies than ever existed in reality. And that's just like Rambo and Commando combined. Forge World Ian the arbiter of the 'history' of the Heresy. Black Library is the movies of what actually happened. Forge World is very good at showing how dangerous the WE are.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

World eaters are a small legion. They throw more bodies than bullets at their enemies. Suprised their legion isn't called "drown them in our own corpses" legion.

[drooling blood]

I know what FW is like and Ive read it all.

It doesnt matter how many humans have died. Rock voice.

Theres billions and trillions of them just on Terra, whats a few million dead mean. Not much when theres trillions and billions. 

When theres only 200k if that. and you lose 10k here, 10k there. It matters.  If everyone decides not to shoot them while they charge, then ok.

I cant see the WE still alive

After Istvaan 4 and 5?, Calth, The place Guiliman turned up and ran away. the Alpha thing, the Webway, that joint Corax sent his loyal captain to die to.

[Scribe]

Why do people continue with WE as a small legion.

 

FW books contradict that.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

It's hard to make it feel less of a contradiction. Especially when you hear how suicidal they are in battle. That's probably just bad writing/interpretation though.

[drooling blood]

Why do people continue with WE as a small legion.

 

FW books contradict that.

I said they should be a small legion, not that they are. Well they shouldnt be many left by now.

I understand how ADB had to get the dig at the wounded WE in. I thought it was over due tbh.

But I think just a daemon invasion would have been better. With some glimpses of WB colours sitting back, seeming to direct.

[Arkangilos]

That's like saying armies in WW1 and 2 should be small because many of them throw their men into the grinder.

 

They recruit fast (this was before recruitment took years) and their quality of training doesn't need to be as high. Just because you read about a lot going down doesn't mean they 1) all die and 2) die in numbers that cannot be easily replaced with half the galaxy to recruit from.

[Scribe]

I actually didn't know WE were in this.

 

Makes the fact my PREORDER STILL ISNT HERE feel worse.

[Legatus]

The World Eaters are probably one of the toughest Legions, though that is not as apparent in the post 2nd Edition material. Back in 2nd, the Mark of Khorne used to provide an improved armour save, giving Berserkers a 2+ save and Khorne Terminators a 2+ save on 2d6 (regular Marines and Terminators had 3+ and 3+ on 2d6), representing the Chaos armour fused with their bodies. The idea of a "berserker" in mythology is a warrior in such a frenzy that he would be impervious to pain and could keep fighting even when heavily wounded. However, starting with late 3rd Edition the resilience benefits of the Mark of Khorne were removed, and replaced with just granting +1 attack (something that earlier the Berserkers had gained naturally due to their frenzied state).

One of Khârn's main traits used to be that he was essentially unkillable, having been resurrected by Khorne at least once, and getting double the amount of wounds (6) back in 2nd Edition. In 3rd Edition Khârn at least retained his 2+ save and 4 wounds, but after 4th Edition even that was removed, leaving him now with a mere 3 wounds and a 3+ save.

In the 3.5 Codex the elite Khorne units could be upgraded with "Feel no Pain", and I have allways felt that in later Codices it was Berserkers who should have gotten "Feel no Pain", not Plague Marines. Plague Marines should have gotten a rotting area effect instead, contaminating the board wherever they go. But the design guys thought otherwise, and now Berserkers retain no resilience traits that had defined them in 2nd Edition.

 

Tl;dr, Khorne Berserkers are actually quite hard to put down, and even when seemingly taken out, they might be resurrected or reanimated again to continue slaughtering in Khorne's name.

 

 

World eaters are a small legion. They throw more bodies than bullets at their enemies. Suprised their legion isn't called "drown them in our own corpses" legion.

 

Nah, that's already Forgeworld's concept for the Ultramarines.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Exactly makes my urine boil that a legion that was sent to deal with the thunder warriors are portrayed so terribly.then again maybe love of war makes you superior as a soldier who knows.

[Tymell]

Well, even just skimming through half of this thread, I can see ADB's talk in the afterword about this being divisive was accurate ;p

I just finished it myself, and my take: an excellently written novel and magnificent addition to the HH series, and 30K/40K lore as a whole. It features some great characters, my favourites being Zephon, Diocletian, Ra and Land, and especially impressive is how he manages to make the Emperor at the same time both inhuman and even abhorrent, yet also awe-inspiring and magnificent. I admire and despise him (the Emperor, not Mr. Dembski-Bowden!) at the same time. That's no mean feat of writing.

 

I love that

It makes it pretty clear: this is the end. The war is over. Humanity lost. It's perfect 40K bleakness. I loved the emphasis Chris Wraight's "The Sigillite" put on the Webway War, and this continues that. What Horus is doing is major, of course, but -this- is the war they need to win if they're to have any long-term hope, and they're pretty much in a fighting retreat right from the start. Which isn't the say the book isn't enjoyable or at times even uplifting, I think it's a testament to how well-written it is that it manages this even in such a dark setting. But after this, humanity will be left clinging by it's fingertips to what it has left, even as it stagnates and devours itself. Though even then, there's at least some degree of interpretation to be had.

 

 

Particularly impressive is that it manages to take probably the five most difficult factions/individuals to empathise with and (presumably) write about: the Custodians, the Sisters of Silence, daemons, the Emperor and the Mechanicum, and still does it well. Major kudos for that.

 

I really don't have anything bad to say about it, though I would note that it feels like less of a character piece or journey than The First Heretic and Betrayer were, it's more about the setting. On a purely personal level I think I enjoy those two a -tad- more, but that's just personal taste. This is still a very well-written piece, solidly in my top 10 favourites for the series, even if not quite top 5. Also well worth a read for those not even into the Heresy, it acts as a superb prologue for the 40K universe itself.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm finally through with it too and honestly not sure if I loved it as much as I think I did. There's so many brilliant scenes in it, a lot of character development and the scale is incredible, so much gravitas to everything happening. But I also felt a bit bogged down by the unrelenting action, and characters dying left and right, often introduced for a dramatic death. I'll have to mull it over for a few days still before I can really pinpoint my feelings on it better.

[Jim Shady]

The whole

Emps killing his uncle via his powers

is very Darth Bane in origin. Anyone else got that vibe? I doubt Mr Dembski-Bowden even had that in mind but it's still not hard to make that connection.

[Praetor of Calth]

I remember at a seminar a couple years back the Fw/Bl staff we were going to see some Legions experimententing with new methods of transformation to replenish their losses quicker.

 

If that turns out too be true, it's easy to see how the World Eaters aren't a Shattered Legion by the Heresy's close.

[Jareddm]

We've already seen that.

 

The WE's recruits at Bodt could go from just being selected and starting training to fully-fledged marine ready for battle in a matter of months.  The results were awful in comparison to traditional marines but if you needed 10,000 berserkers pumped full of Butcher's Nails and hypno-indoctrinated with the experience from a thousand battles, Bodt could get that to you before New Year's.

 

Edit: An appropriate topic for post number 888.

[Petitioner's City]

The whole

Emps killing his uncle via his powers

is very Darth Bane in origin. Anyone else get that vibe? I doubt Mr Dembski-Bowden even had that in mind but it's still not hard to make that connection.

 

He does play The Old Republic...so probably played the older games too! And knows the EU well if this post is to be considered.

[Kelborn]

It's naturally to draw inspiration from those franchises you prefer.

I'm doing the same with Warcraft, Mass Effect, Star Wars and so on.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if he's doing the same. :)

[Sete]

Arkan gave me a Sheldon vibe.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think uncle killing father, avenged by son is a classic route on the heroes journey. Maybe, maybe not. But secretly I don't think it was Star Wars, it was....

 

 

THE LION KING