Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[DarkChaplain]

I think the book massively benefitted from the exposition it presented, while the plot itself felt a bit stagnant. A lot of the moving pieces are about the war itself, whereas the most interesting parts to me where the non-war bits, the dialogue, the Emperor showing Ra this and that, Arkhan Land's involvements, the Archimandrite's origins and the Custodians' history and understanding of their duty.

The heavy action, while necessary, was what kept me from finishing the book over the release weekend. Thankfully the action still offered a platform for various neat ideas, but that's generally where my attention slips.

[b1soul]

 

 

In terms of character development I found the Custodes dull and clone-like. I think that is probably an accurate portrayal, but it is disappointing nonetheless. Similarly, The Sisters of Silence (whilst less dull) were very like each other. I didn’t get the Blood Angel and Skoia didn’t give me the emotive oomph I needed for her story line

 

Agreed with these points...

 

I did not find Ra or Dio interesting as characters, though I appreciated the insight into Custodes thinking

 

 

 

I wasn't crazy about the BA's handicap...not sure if it made his character more interesting or simply more useless and a greater contrast to the Custodes

 

Didn't feel anything for Skoia.

 

As always...despite the gripes, ADB's excellent prose still made MoM an overall enjoyable experience

 

I would've really appreciated a Traitor POV character in the Webway

 

[DarkChaplain]

To be honest, I had to completely readjust my mental image of Diocletian when he got called Dio the first time. I was just waiting for him to steal a Sister of Silence's first kiss or shout The World...

[karden00]

 

 

 

In terms of character development I found the Custodes dull and clone-like. I think that is probably an accurate portrayal, but it is disappointing nonetheless. Similarly, The Sisters of Silence (whilst less dull) were very like each other. I didn’t get the Blood Angel and Skoia didn’t give me the emotive oomph I needed for her story line

 

Agreed with these points...

 

I did not find Ra or Dio interesting as characters, though I appreciated the insight into Custodes thinking

 

 

 

I wasn't crazy about the BA's handicap...not sure if it made his character more interesting or simply more useless and a greater contrast to the Custodes

 

Didn't feel anything for Skoia.

 

As always...despite the gripes, ADB's excellent prose still made MoM an overall enjoyable experience

 

I would've really appreciated a Traitor POV character in the Webway

 

 

Again, not done the book, but I dont mind this at all. 

Hearkens back to the discussions that used to be had about how Good Astartes in novels could never really be Good Astartes. 

I dont want my Custodian Guards to be interesting, dynamic characters with developing storylines and progressions. I don't want them to develop at all. Maybe when the Big E gets hamfisted, sure, we can have their world-view shattered. 

Otherwise, I want and like them to be aloof, Gold, shiny and not really into doing much other than Kicking A$$ and taking names. 

[b1soul]

I dont want my Custodian Guards to be interesting, dynamic characters with developing storylines and progressions.

You are fully entitled to that preference

 

I think Ra has a developing storyline...his.personality is just bland, perhaps intentionally so

[Mellow]

I agree it's pretty obvious now that The Emperor used that single path to drag the Void Dragon to Mars.

[Xisor]

In fairness, the C'tan 'gave access to the Webway to the Necrons', one might suppose the Dragon 'gave' to the Emperor similarly. Much as they 'gave' the Pariah gene?

 

It actually appeals to an old idea I had where the Dragon bad always been on Mars, that Seymon's account in the cave under the Labyrinth was much more allegorical than it appeared.

 

In the vision, did it say the dragon lived in a pit? A cave?

[HeritorA]

In fairness, the C'tan 'gave access to the Webway to the Necrons', one might suppose the Dragon 'gave' to the Emperor similarly. Much as they 'gave' the Pariah gene?

 

It actually appeals to an old idea I had where the Dragon bad always been on Mars, that Seymon's account in the cave under the Labyrinth was much more allegorical than it appeared.

 

In the vision, did it say the dragon lived in a pit? A cave?

True to both points. Cave would be Noctis labyrinth as of now

[godking]

Finished it today

 

Great novel

 

My first thought was after seeing the damage that Magnus caused.

 

Damn it Magnus you :cussed up everything !

 

That being said i dont buy the emperor's excuse for not telling his sons about the warp.

 

The emperor could have shared what he knew and warned Magnus and some of the more reliable and intelligent Primarch's

 

There is a difference between knowing that there is intelligent life in the warp and knowing that there are malevonent entities in the warp that seek to enslave humanity.

 

 

[Arkangilos]

I'm pretty sure HH book one has Horus explain to Loken that the Emperor did tell them there were, in fact, malevolent entities in the warp that did just that. I've never understood why everyone says he didn't.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Emperor did tell his sons about the Warp

 

Corax remarks on how they were told

 

Magnus remarks on how he and the Emperor met in the Warp, traveled together in the Warp, and how their physical meeting was merely a formality

Then the Emperor spends additional time with Magnus, teaching him of the Warp

[godking]

The emperor told his sons that there was intelligent life in the warp not that there where dark gods seeking to enslave humanity in the warp.

 

A big thing to leave out.

 

As arrogant as Magnus was had the emperor told him what he was trying to achieve  he would not have used the method he used to "warn" the emperor.

 

Magnus was the greatest loss to the emperor amongst the traitor primarchs and basically doomed humanity with his ''warning''

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It's actually in print that the Emperor warned his sons of the Chaos powers who were antagonist of all life outside of the Warp.

 

I'm not sure how to say it differently to get the message across.

 

The primarchs were warned. They knew what lurked in the dark.

Their mistake was thinking they were wholly confined to the dark, which is why the emergence of Samus is such a big deal

[Nashnir]

I loved the book.
I personally place it well above all other books in the Heresy series.

Mainly since I always wanted to get more lore on the Emperor and the Custodes.

The first Heretic and The Big three were by favorites before this

 

 

Contents in the book below

 

 

 

In no particular order.

 

I liked how the Emperor was portrayed as a dispassionate person. I feel this nature of the Emperor is more relatable than the father figure nonsense in all other descriptions. In a way I highly doubt at this point the Emperor has ever referred to them as his sons and it was just what the Primarchs and others in general allegorically started referring to the relation and this just became a thing.

 

It was refreshing to see how the Custodes referred and thought about him. Looking at this I do agree with the one Custodian who refers to the Primarchs as needy children wanting praise for everything they did. In this context, as a Dark Angel fan I can relate to the similarities between The Emperor and the Lion. (Secrets, cold nature and such)

 

In the final fight, the Emperor summons what seems like phantasms of dead warriors. Does this allude to something like how Cegorach fights for the souls of Eldar in the warp, that the Emperor saves those who served him?

 

I also loved the description of the Emperor by the sister when he is on the throne. Also then ending kind of makes him more human.

 

Arkhan Land and Zephon were great but kind of felt like a filler. The conversations between them were always fun to read.

 

Edit: I also came out with the view from their characterization that the Custodes were the only one (Big E not counting) who were acting like mature grown humans. It mainly has to do with the fact that although they were privy a greater extent to his all too human qualities like doubt, sadness, defeat etc.; they handled it with more emotional intelligence than even the Primarchs.

 

 

 

 

By the end of this book I feel that if a person already knows the lore then he should read this book first in the BL HH series. It will give a different perspective on all the other events occurring.

[DarkChaplain]

I disagree vehemently. The different perspective has so much more impact in hindsight, because it challenges preconceived notions.

[Augustus]

I got the book 10 days ago. I blew through 180 pages or so in an evening. I agree with DarkChaplain in that the exposition is amazing. The Emperor talking to Ra, Land and others is amazing. I, too, think that the action, while necessary, detracts from the better parts which first and foremost is the amazing dialogue. I'm going to try to finish it up this weekend. Hopefully my son will oblige. 

[Tyriks]

I'm pretty sure HH book one has Horus explain to Loken that the Emperor did tell them there were, in fact, malevolent entities in the warp that did just that. I've never understood why everyone says he didn't.

Not quite, Horus Rising shows Horus telling Loken that there are warp entities but that they are just another xenos race, not anything supernatural. He explicitly denounces the term demon in that conversation because he insists they are no different than other races. False Gods showed Horus arguing with a demon that there were no such things as demons (for his own sake, I think). Legion has the Alpha Legion boasting about the fact that they know what chaos is, while Grammaticus internally is astonished at how ignorant they are of it. So while later books might have said the Emperor did tell them, there's ample evidence in earlier books he didn't. That's why people keep saying that. Not sure if it's a retcon or just inconsistent, but it makes sense why people would come to that conclusion.

[Tymell]

I got the book 10 days ago. I blew through 180 pages or so in an evening. I agree with DarkChaplain in that the exposition is amazing. The Emperor talking to Ra, Land and others is amazing. I, too, think that the action, while necessary, detracts from the better parts which first and foremost is the amazing dialogue. I'm going to try to finish it up this weekend. Hopefully my son will oblige. 

 

This book almost makes me wish I had kids just so I could wind up my partner by referring to them as The First, The Second, etc :p

[Augustus]

That's why we have children. To turn on the tv, fetch us drinks, conquer the galaxy. The little things.

[Arkangilos]

 

I'm pretty sure HH book one has Horus explain to Loken that the Emperor did tell them there were, in fact, malevolent entities in the warp that did just that. I've never understood why everyone says he didn't.

Not quite, Horus Rising shows Horus telling Loken that there are warp entities but that they are just another xenos race, not anything supernatural. He explicitly denounces the term demon in that conversation because he insists they are no different than other races. False Gods showed Horus arguing with a demon that there were no such things as demons (for his own sake, I think). Legion has the Alpha Legion boasting about the fact that they know what chaos is, while Grammaticus internally is astonished at how ignorant they are of it. So while later books might have said the Emperor did tell them, there's ample evidence in earlier books he didn't. That's why people keep saying that. Not sure if it's a retcon or just inconsistent, but it makes sense why people would come to that conclusion.

The Emperor told them they were dangerous (Horus wasn't surprised at all at the demon and it's pretty obvious, they, like all Xenos, are bad and have it out for humanity). The thing is, it doesn't matter if he called them gods or Xenos, the word doesn't change what they are. But he DID talk to them about them. He DID explain that there was something horrible in the warp that was dangerous. People keep getting fixated on the terms "Xenos" and "gods" but it wouldn't have made a damn difference. I mean people worshipped Xenos as gods too, but that didn't change what they were. People *choose* to believe that the warp entities are gods, but them being called gods or Xenos doesn't change them. I mean after all, Lorgar worshipped the Emperor despite not being a god, and would have still worshipped the chaos gods no matter what the Emperor said.

[Arkangilos]

I guess that's where the real problem lies. It's not that he didn't tell people that gods exist (because to him, they don't, to him they are just extra dimensional beings), it's that he didn't let the Imperium worship him.

[Tyriks]

 

 

I'm pretty sure HH book one has Horus explain to Loken that the Emperor did tell them there were, in fact, malevolent entities in the warp that did just that. I've never understood why everyone says he didn't.

Not quite, Horus Rising shows Horus telling Loken that there are warp entities but that they are just another xenos race, not anything supernatural. He explicitly denounces the term demon in that conversation because he insists they are no different than other races. False Gods showed Horus arguing with a demon that there were no such things as demons (for his own sake, I think). Legion has the Alpha Legion boasting about the fact that they know what chaos is, while Grammaticus internally is astonished at how ignorant they are of it. So while later books might have said the Emperor did tell them, there's ample evidence in earlier books he didn't. That's why people keep saying that. Not sure if it's a retcon or just inconsistent, but it makes sense why people would come to that conclusion.

The Emperor told them they were dangerous (Horus wasn't surprised at all at the demon and it's pretty obvious, they, like all Xenos, are bad and have it out for humanity). The thing is, it doesn't matter if he called them gods or Xenos, the word doesn't change what they are. But he DID talk to them about them. He DID explain that there was something horrible in the warp that was dangerous. People keep getting fixated on the terms "Xenos" and "gods" but it wouldn't have made a damn difference. I mean people worshipped Xenos as gods too, but that didn't change what they were. People *choose* to believe that the warp entities are gods, but them being called gods or Xenos doesn't change them. I mean after all, Lorgar worshipped the Emperor despite not being a god, and would have still worshipped the chaos gods no matter what the Emperor said.

 

It actually does make a difference here.  They were told warp creatures were just aliens like everything else, not the immortal nightmares that they are inadvertently feeding.  Knowing something exists is not at all the same thing as being informed about it.  And I'm not hung up on the term xenos - you're just ignoring all but one of my examples.  It would absolutely make a difference if he had actually told them how chaos worked and what they could do about it.  The fact that he didn't is largely why Horus rejected him - learning about chaos taught him explicitly that the Emperor had withheld from him, casting their relationship into doubt.  That was a point Horus kept coming to in his monologue while in the lodge.  

[godking]

There is a difference between knowing that there is intelligent life in the warp and knowing that there are malevonent entities being fed by human emotions who seek to enslave humanity.

 

There is a difference between the Emperor saying that he is retreating back to Terra to work in his Laboratories and the Emperor explaining that he is going back to Terra to work on a solution to safeguard humanity forever from the malevonent entities in the Warp.

 

There is a difference between the Emperor ordering the Astartes to stop using librarians and the emperor explaining to those who understand the warp (Magnus)  that using liabrarians may draw the attentions of the malevonent entities in the warp to emperors plans to safeguard humanity.

 

Had the emperor told Magnus what he was trying to do he would not have known NOT to destroy the wards to warn the emperor.

 

Magnus destroying the wards sealed humanities fate.

 

Even had horus conquered every planet in the imperium save Terra and the webway  experminent remained intact humanity could have been saved.

 

The moment the wards where destroyed and the experiment  abandoned it was over for humanity.

[HeritorA]

 

I dont want my Custodian Guards to be interesting, dynamic characters with developing storylines and progressions.

You are fully entitled to that preference

 

I think Ra has a developing storyline...his.personality is just bland, perhaps intentionally so

 

Definitely intentionally so.

 

That's why we have children. To turn on the tv, fetch us drinks, conquer the galaxy. The little things.

Won the thread ;)

 

I disagree vehemently. The different perspective has so much more impact in hindsight, because it challenges preconceived notions.

Depends.

[Mellow]

I loved the book.

I personally place it well above all other books in the Heresy series.

Mainly since I always wanted to get more lore on the Emperor and the Custodes.

The first Heretic and The Big three were by favorites before this

 

 

Contents in the book below

 

 

 

In no particular order.

 

I liked how the Emperor was portrayed as a dispassionate person. I feel this nature of the Emperor is more relatable than the father figure nonsense in all other descriptions. In a way I highly doubt at this point the Emperor has ever referred to them as his sons and it was just what the Primarchs and others in general allegorically started referring to the relation and this just became a thing.

 

It was refreshing to see how the Custodes referred and thought about him. Looking at this I do agree with the one Custodian who refers to the Primarchs as needy children wanting praise for everything they did. In this context, as a Dark Angel fan I can relate to the similarities between The Emperor and the Lion. (Secrets, cold nature and such)

 

In the final fight, the Emperor summons what seems like phantasms of dead warriors. Does this allude to something like how Cegorach fights for the souls of Eldar in the warp, that the Emperor saves those who served him?

 

I also loved the description of the Emperor by the sister when he is on the throne. Also then ending kind of makes him more human.

 

Arkhan Land and Zephon were great but kind of felt like a filler. The conversations between them were always fun to read.

 

Edit: I also came out with the view from their characterization that the Custodes were the only one (Big E not counting) who were acting like mature grown humans. It mainly has to do with the fact that although they were privy a greater extent to his all too human qualities like doubt, sadness, defeat etc.; they handled it with more emotional intelligence than even the Primarchs.

 

 

 

 

By the end of this book I feel that if a person already knows the lore then he should read this book first in the BL HH series. It will give a different perspective on all the other events occurring.

No where does The Emperor summon dead warriors. You are crazy, lol