Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Arkangilos]

And how do you know that he *didn't* tell them those things? We don't see when he sits down and explains it to the Primarchs, but we do know he did talk to them about it.

 

We also know that Magnus warned Horus not to listen, and we know that Magnus thought he was better. We know that Lorgar came into direct contact with entities of the warp and *still chose to worship them*. You can keep saying the Emperor failed, but he didn't. He could have told them the complete truth (and I think he did), and they still would have turned. Lorgar wanted something to worship, and literally slaughtered millions to prove it. Horus felt the Emperor was working for himself, and so listened to Lorgar. Magnus was full of pride, and so it wouldn't have mattered because he still would have thought himself better (like everyone else that tries to control chaos after the Horus Heresy).

 

The problem isn't what the Emperor did not tell them, as we can reasonably see. The problem is pride. Pride made Horus turn. Pride made Lorgar turn (religious pride). Pride made Magnus turn. No spoken truth is strong enough to prevent the pride of successful men.

Powerful men*

[Nashnir]

No where does The Emperor summon dead warriors. You are crazy, lol

 

 

Direct quote from the book below.

 

 

Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath.

 

Well, guess my sentence wasn't technically correct;

 

 

[Xisor]

"Magnus, there's immortal all-powerful god-like beings out there lurking beyond everything. Don't go near them. Don't even think about them. Whatever you do, don't:

- fantasise

- resent change

- want change

- kill

 

"Certainly don't think even for a second that you can use their powers against them. Also you're imbued with their power, also all psychic power is sortof inextricably derived from their power. Also also: they're yout number one enemy and their defeat is a priority beyond all others.

 

"Got that? Now go conquer the galaxy."

 

---

 

The only way to win is not to play. (Cref Rob Sanders' Archon duology.)

[Rob P]

Personally, don't think it matters if they're viewed as supernatural daemons or xenos, but I can see why people see there being an important distinction.

 

If you believe one angle that you're given in this book, the primarchs to the Emperor are like the thunder warriors (a means to an end, a tool, not humanity). he didn't anticipate them screwing up.

 

Does make me wonder if Big E did send the Wolves to take out Magnus.

 

Also why couldn't they just abandon the project on Terra and restart on, say, Mars?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Personally, don't think it matters if they're viewed as supernatural daemons or xenos, but I can see why people see there being an important distinction.

 

If you believe one angle that you're given in this book, the primarchs to the Emperor are like the thunder warriors (a means to an end, a tool, not humanity). he didn't anticipate them screwing up.

 

Does make me wonder if Big E did send the Wolves to take out Magnus.

 

Also why couldn't they just abandon the project on Terra and restart on, say, Mars?

 

Mars and Terra are in an alliance, but maybe the Emperor didnt trust the Mechanicum enough to make their pathway the main hub. The cogboys have proven untrustworthy enough at the best of times.

 

Besides, Terra is the birth of the human race. The main prize. Even Horus acknowledges that whoever holds Terra, holds humanity.

[Volt]

What I really want to know is how the hell

Is Drach'yen a threat to the Emperor at all? The Emperor is beyond even Magnus in psychic power, and is the single most powerful psyker in the universe. He can destroy fleets in space or a planet, I don't care what a special snowflake Drach'yen is being made out to be just so Abaddon can be hyped up- there's no way a fight should have even occurred. The entire book reeks of ADB just setting it up to make Abaddon more powerful like dueling authors in a comic book each trying to one-up their favorite character. On top of that, the Emperor's total sociopathy is extremely jarring compared to past depictions even in just the HH, and doesn't make sense at all considering the Emperor loved Horus and he was his favorite son.

 

[Scribe]

Who made those claims though? (Note: The editor has apparently said the end fight is being retconned).

 

Note the Second: The Emperor was always a sociopath. 

[DarkChaplain]

Note: The editor has apparently said the end fight is being retconned

 

Elaborate?

[Wulfburk]

Long time lurker of this forum but i had to create an account to ask this: (some outcast dead spoilers too)

 

 

 

DId i understand wrong or the the only thing the Emperor achieved when he went out the throne and into the webway was, besides the whole thing with the daemon of the first murder, was to protect the few remaining forces in the convoys getting back? And yet ended up in the final part of the book by being forced to close it all while everyone was desperate?

 

So the greatest being in the galaxy was a huey and chinook pilot in the fall of saigon? And almost failing too?

 

 

Im not saying he should have won the war singlehandedly, but at least not ending in a freaking rout. There is quite a difference from a fall of saigon to say Durkirk... to give an example.

 

 

Considering what most have been saying this is probably heresy for some, but ALTHOUGH i -really- enjoyed Master of Mankind, ironically the Emperor's portrayal, in dream sequences and when he got into the webway, wasnt that much to my liking, SPECIALLY compared to The Outcast Dead (ok book overall but the dream sequences with the Emperor were freaking awesome) and Path of Heaven.

 

 

In both, the flashbacks the Khan has and the dream sequences in Outcast Dead sent me shivers down my spine of how awesome the Emperor was and how he was ACTIVE even when being all the way across the galaxy (sending  a almost derelict ship back from the warp in Outcast dead for example) and how his goals were really obscure BUT he achieved them. In Outcast Dead all the protagonists and the crusader hosts marines are all along, without them being aware, doing exactly what the Emperor wanted so he could achieve his goal.

 

 

 

But in MoM the Emperor ends up with a - I dont know.....

 

 

Much different to Outcast Dead:

 

 

Kai Zulane:    But you will die

 

 

The Emperor:    I know.

 

 

 

So yeah though i really liked the book it isnt close to Praetorian of Dorn and Path of Heaven IMO to say of those released recently.

 

 

Also i felt it was quite strange to see Custodians killing space marines in waves while in The First Heretic IIRC didnt some 4 custodians die to some 6 gal vorbak?

 

 

 

 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Inconsistency bothers me a lot. But to be honest I like some of it. Makes chance and fate seem more involved wth the characters place and settings.

[Scribe]

DC: in one of the threads here someone mentioned that the whole 'emperor holds back from his favourite son' is being changed. No details but it was apparently Laurie who said it on that forum he visits.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Right, time to put an end to this sort of thing...

 

I've said nothing about anything being changed. Rumour-mongers will have to try harder than that, I'm afraid.

 

Much like the Emperor himself, I don't make absolute claims about things that haven't yet happened. I usually preface anything I say about the future of the HH series with "in my opinion, it might be cool if..."

[Scribe]

Speak of the devil. :)

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[LaurieJGoulding]

You are more than welcome.

Now, who cast this ritual of summoning? How do I get home again? I've got stuff to do.

[DarkChaplain]

Turn back while you still can, Laurie. Don't get caught up in the madness around here. The Eye of Terror is kindergarten in comparison (and its occupants far more reasonable, I find) :')

[Black Cohort]

I think it would be best if we don't actually see the fight between Horus + the Emperor. It will never match people's expectations. An event of that magnitude should have a huge psychic imprint on the area in the immediate aftermath. So have someone, a custodes, blood angel or imperial fist be with Dorn when they find the Emperor and have them see flashes from the fight ad psychic imprints on the area. They see Horus standing over his brother's broken body, then a flash of the Emperor charging, then the Emperor wounded and on the ground, then a nameless hero charging Horus despite the odds.

[Kelborn]

 

 

No where does The Emperor summon dead warriors. You are crazy, lol

 

Direct quote from the book below.

 

 

Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath.

 

Well, guess my sentence wasn't technically correct;

 

Ha! Seems like I was closer to "reality" with my Abbi / Emperor scene when I had thought. ^^

[Sete]

Oh wow a world eater summoning. Khorne will be disappointed in you Scribe xD

[LaurieJGoulding]

Black Cohort - that's not a bad idea, actually.

[Nashnir]

I think it would be best if we don't actually see the fight between Horus + the Emperor. It will never match people's expectations. An event of that magnitude should have a huge psychic imprint on the area in the immediate aftermath. So have someone, a custodes, blood angel or imperial fist be with Dorn when they find the Emperor and have them see flashes from the fight ad psychic imprints on the area. They see Horus standing over his brother's broken body, then a flash of the Emperor charging, then the Emperor wounded and on the ground, then a nameless hero charging Horus despite the odds.

 

I agree.

Would be great if we have a third person account of the fight between Emperor and Horus & a first hand account of fight between Chaos Pantheon in Horus' form vs The Emperor.

 

Edit:

Would love it if the final fight starting with the boarding action should be an entire book unto itself.

[Mellow]

 

 

No where does The Emperor summon dead warriors. You are crazy, lol

 

Direct quote from the book below.

 

 

Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath.

 

Well, guess my sentence wasn't technically correct;

 

My bad. Looks like He summons "fire angels" for lack of a better word.

 

Strangely this is also what the Astronomicon does to the Eye of Terror as described in Talon of Horus.

[A D-B]

 

 

No where does The Emperor summon dead warriors. You are crazy, lol

Direct quote from the book below.

 

 

Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath.

 

Well, guess my sentence wasn't technically correct;

 

My bad. Looks like He summons "fire angels" for lack of a better word.

 

That's not a great word for what's happening, though. Very easy to leap to conclusions with a word like that.

[Kelborn]

I rather see them as avenging spirits. Like those Odin had chosen to fight at his side again. A psychic revenant of the great betrayals of both Istvan, events with such an impact on the spiritual realm that Obi-Wan would feel a constant disturbance of the Force.

 

Remaining within the Emperors Light, they are projected into the battle to fight against demons. Would be interesting if they would be able to constantly destroy demons as they are other beings themselves.

[Mellow]

 

 

 

 

No where does The Emperor summon dead warriors. You are crazy, lol

Direct quote from the book below.

 

 

Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath.

 

Well, guess my sentence wasn't technically correct;

 

My bad. Looks like He summons "fire angels" for lack of a better word.

That's not a great word for what's happening, though. Very easy to leap to conclusions with a word like that.

Oh God. Corrected by THE Author *gulp*

 

OK so it's the Emperors psychic fire flowing out of his sword like some kind of tidal wave of "woah" and the shapes are of betrayed marines and Ferrus. It sounds a lot like He's killing Daemons with sadness ;)

[helterskelter]

The big E doesn't give a gnats chuffington about 10th and dead tools