Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Prot]

 

That's a shame, then, because it seems you've picked the wrong cause to champion. I'm not sure whether you venerate Alan Merrett and Rick Priestley, but both of them have often said that Chaos will win, and mankind is doomed, and we're just repeating the folly of the eldar, und so weiter, und so weiter...

 

 

This is interesting to me. Going as far back as I can remember it always felt like we (as players) were kind of told it's a super open ended environment and almost anything goes. I always liked to believe this meant the endgame was not predetermined.

 

This brings me to something sort of related that I just thought of while getting through chapter 13 (I think) last night...

 

There's a moment where big E is explaining the fall of the little 'e' (eldar!). Basically if I can remember there is this comparison of how the psychic might of the Eldar and their reluctance to control it was the death of them, and the Emperor felt mankind needed a leader.... needed to be 'controlled'. (I think Ra uses that term)

 

Anyway it seems the Emperor goes on to say the psychic might of mankind, as we continue to evolve (but aren't there yet), would result in an even greater catastrophic event... bigger than the fall of the Eldar.

 

So I'm thinking about this... and wondering did this whole event totally screw up Chaos' ultimate victory? They couldn't wait any longer could they? Chaos HAD to pull the pin now because the Emperor was getting ready for his ultimate battle, and there could be no more delay on Chaos' part.

 

So instead of mankind evolving to psychic pinnacle that would ultimately fail and be destroyed, it is stunted in that direction as internal wars/bickering/the long war stopped all of that from happening.

 

In a bizzarre way I wondered if mankind's downfall of internal destruction actually saves it?

 

Just a thought that crossed my mind during that scene.

[Sete]

Chaos will win, does not mean it is with Abby's 13th crusade.

That's my interpretation.

Also good point Prot. I need to re read the book. This Sanguinala probably

[Kelborn]

Bit off topic

Is "und so weiter" as well a commonly used German phrase in English like Kindergarten?

 

Didn't knew that and I'm a bit entertained by it. ^^

[Legatus]

 

 

That's a shame, then, because it seems you've picked the wrong cause to champion. I'm not sure whether you venerate Alan Merrett and Rick Priestley, but both of them have often said that Chaos will win, and mankind is doomed, and we're just repeating the folly of the eldar, und so weiter, und so weiter...

 

 

This is interesting to me. Going as far back as I can remember it always felt like we (as players) were kind of told it's a super open ended environment and almost anything goes. I always liked to believe this meant the endgame was not predetermined.

 

It wasn't. Since 1st Edition the official story was that the Emperor was "guiding mankind on a narrow path of survival he alone could see". That is still the story in the 7th Edition rulebook. The official tagline of the rulebooks is usually "mankind is fighting on". There are a lot of descriptions along the line of "if [person/organisation] should not succeed, then mankind would be completely doomed". So, things are looking really really grim, and kind of dark, but not all is lost.

 

But apparently there is an internal understanding at GW that Chaos will definitely win in the end. They just never really told us. Kind of like the "we allways though of Alpharius as a twin" story.

 

 

 

As for the comparison to the Eldar, mankind has already birthed it's own three Chaos gods. The threat for mankind is that they are psychically so weak that an untrained rogue psyker can be abused as a gateway for daemons into realspace, condemning his entire world to a hellish death. That is one of the reasons why the Emperor developed space travel, so that the entire species could be spread out over several planets, and was not concentrated on one single world, and why the knowledge of Chaos and experimenting with arcane secrets is forbidden. If knowledge of Chaos were to spread, and rogue psykers were not controlled, world after world would be sucked into the warp. It would not be a cataclysmic "birth of Slaanesh" event, but the sure death of the human race nonetheless.

[Sete]

With so many :cuss happening before the humans, I wonder how they birthed 3 chaos gods. Is this still the official version?

[Olis]

Bit off topic

Is "und so weiter" as well a commonly used German phrase in English like Kindergarten?

 

Didn't knew that and I'm a bit entertained by it. ^^

 

From my PoV, it's not terribly common but it is used now and again. 

 

/offtopic

[Mellow]

The Orks will win. Every other species end game doesn't work. Except for the Tau. But they are too few and too small.

[Loesh]

I don't think it was ever in question that Chaos would win in the end, given the very nature of what Chaos is. The Emperor was a tyrant, was a monster, but in some deep way I almost feel sorry for him because he was hopelessly optimistic in the nature of mankind in a way I can identify with. He thought mankind was stronger then it was, that under his guidance he could stop them from consuming themselves, that he could build castles in the sky where men would decide for men away from the laughter of thirsting gods. Even if he's a dictator on par with, if not far worse, then anything we've ever experienced on earth...isn't that so horribly tragic?

 

But mankind was not that strong, he was not that strong, you cannot deny the nature of the universe. You cannot save mankind from itself, it could not turn away the darkness no matter how much light you bring to ward it away, because the truth is that in the end there was no other way. Chaos can always come back so long as there's a single murderous thought in a mans mind, so long as there's a spark of envy in his eyes, a fear of death over dishonor, a desire to rule everything and anything with an iron fist. Even the Astartes, having as much of mankinds evil engineered out of them as possible, could not resist. Now they exist as pale shadows of themselves, thinblooded children of a bygone age, trying desperately to not be crushed under their own flaws while fighting back the heralds of the apocalypse.

 

And who are these heralds? these bringers of destruction? Why, they are the Astartes too. Mankinds greatest heroes either died in the passage of time or became this, willingly or not they fell to the dark gods. Black deceptions, the threat of annihilation, misguided selflessness, or even just a desire for a better world then the Emperor could give...it all tragically turned them to the chaos gods. Because the Dark Gods do not just play to our worst, they play to our best, and they could not save themselves, so how could they save us? For all the blood they shed trying to hold back the darkness, the darkness overcame them. No doubt many do not savor this role, just as many have completely fallen into madness, but this imperium is not the imperium they knew and it would not accept them back even if they wanted to be. So they wait, banished to hell and watching the rotting empire they helped build, knowing that some day Chaos will call and ask them to tear it all down.

 

Those children not turned to Chaos are seized by the empire they protect to be indoctrinated, to be brainwashed and hypnotized, to be fed lies and mind scrubbed, all so they don't know the terrible secrets of their chapter, the imperium, or whatever horrible thing they happen to be fighting at the time just so they could not start another Horus Heresy. The worst part? The imperium is not wrong for doing this, it's not like members of the chapters who remained loyal didn't turn later as well, if they know the full extent of the darkness they risk falling to it themselves. So the inquisition, a loosely defined organization of questionable sanity itself and immense size, must control the flow of information lest the imperiums mightiest heroes could some day be it's worst villains.  They have to exterminate entire worlds with even the smallest hint of heresy, have to purge and fabricate lies about it's best champions posthumously just so no one knows what really happened, they have to prop the Emperor up on a throne of lies with a book made by one mankinds saviors turned Archpriest of the Apocalypse.

 

What kind of empire could possibly survive such a thing? when the only thing holding back their ruination is ignorance and tyranny, when their brightest heroes either died ages ago or come back with twisted Aquila's, blackened hearts, and a desire to do nothing but destroy them all? When a population is drowning under ignorance, apathy, and rebellion? when all they can see is the faint dying of the light as the Astronimcon grows dimmer and dimmer....

 

Some day mankind will give everything it can, some day there will be no more heroes left in man, some day there will be no more bulwarks against the darkness, some day the Imperium will grow cold and quiet.

[Marshal Rohr]

Kind of like Star Wars, I guess. At the end of Episode III, you can know conceptually the Jedi will return, but if you're only playing a game centered around the immediate aftermath of Revenge of the Sith, the Jedi have lost.

[deathspectersgt7]

We will know who will win when GW closes the doors .

[Xisor]

That's a shame, then, because it seems you've picked the wrong cause to champion. I'm not sure whether you venerate Alan Merrett and Rick Priestley, but both of them have often said that Chaos will win, and mankind is doomed, and we're just repeating the folly of the eldar, und so weiter, und so weiter...

This is interesting to me. Going as far back as I can remember it always felt like we (as players) were kind of told it's a super open ended environment and almost anything goes. I always liked to believe this meant the endgame was not predetermined.

This brings me to something sort of related that I just thought of while getting through chapter 13 (I think) last night...

There's a moment where big E is explaining the fall of the little 'e' (eldar!). Basically if I can remember there is this comparison of how the psychic might of the Eldar and their reluctance to control it was the death of them, and the Emperor felt mankind needed a leader.... needed to be 'controlled'. (I think Ra uses that term)

Anyway it seems the Emperor goes on to say the psychic might of mankind, as we continue to evolve (but aren't there yet), would result in an even greater catastrophic event... bigger than the fall of the Eldar.

So I'm thinking about this... and wondering did this whole event totally screw up Chaos' ultimate victory? They couldn't wait any longer could they? Chaos HAD to pull the pin now because the Emperor was getting ready for his ultimate battle, and there could be no more delay on Chaos' part.

So instead of mankind evolving to psychic pinnacle that would ultimately fail and be destroyed, it is stunted in that direction as internal wars/bickering/the long war stopped all of that from happening.

In a bizzarre way I wondered if mankind's downfall of internal destruction actually saves it?

Just a thought that crossed my mind during that scene.

Good shout. I think it ties strongly into Legion & the Cabal's assertions about the future, and even into things discussed around Vulkan.

It was never binary. It's not "You win/they lose" - ever.

But, the fundamentals of Chaos (specifically if you think of both the end of Rob's Archaon duology, and Josh's Time of Ending finale, or elsewhere all across 40k and the others), are pretty clear: they don't care. I mean they do care. The only thing they do is care.

But they also don't care.

Think of the boardgame Chaos in the Old World. The Chaos Gods are mere players. They want to win, but at the end of the evening the board will be packed up and they'll go to bed or the pub or wherever. Theirs is eternity, ours is barely even one play or one move in the game.

I'd wager it's from that view that you can summarise Rick Priestly, Alan Merrett et al's views that it's a 'foregone conclusion'. Within the game it's still all to play for. In the... in-universe meta: Chaos is what it is. Even if it's defeated it can achieve more wondrous and profound victories millennia or universes distant...

----

But enough about headcanon.

----

Actually, one more. Even assuming that all the above is 100% Laure, Aaron et al's current views, the categorical official 100%-true line etched in stone and put on a big block on an industrial estate in Nottingham for all to see. Assume for a moment that it is.

Then there's still an argument to be made that it's headcanon. It just happens to also be 'canon' (for want of a better word). But it's the headcanon of the people who're actually writing the actual official stuff. So for as long as their minds are set on that path, that's how it will be.

Now, to be less melodramatic than 'death of the author' - you've got the view that the authors can move on, literally and psychologically. It's a team game, and teams aren't always good at pulling in 100% the same direction. People spread, new ideas come in, people go to new companies. Even deeply held convictions can erode in the face of the passing of seconds and years.

So whilst it might be the rule now, it might not be the rule later. ('Everything in the Warhammer World has to reset, sort of. No big changes. All pieces go back to their starting places. Except that one time we kicked the table over and burned everything.' Who am I misquoting? Guy Hayley? Josh Reynolds? Distinct feeling something like it was said at BLL this year.)

Hell, the authors can even just be outright wrong about things - either wrong end of the stick or criminally running away with the truth. Hardly likely in this case, but in general it's worth considering.

----

To that extent, it brings us right back to "Mankind's Master: Beyond the Golden Throne" and Legion - the whole thing hinges on a few different layers of intent, interpretation and view.

Both the reader's interpretation (notoriously flawed, if all that time doing English at High School has taught me anything [and it hasn't], it's that people can't read crap, but also have fantastically flexible, credible and interesting imaginations and capacity for rationalising compelling, impressive structures), the gulf between the author's intent and the author's aggregate receptions, and the wider impact of the whole thing in light of what's been published before and what will be published later (can anyone truly say they've read 100% of GW's canonical BL-ish output?).

So even within the books, the implications of the reveals are shocking. But they're also not unique. The response to the Perspicuity (?) in Legion, the various philosophies involved, the competing viewpoints, the lack of having all the facts. Hell, the colouring of those facts themselves - how much of the Emperor's own views are derived from 'reliable' sources? How much ever could be? He might be all Muad'dib and walking the tightrope to infinity, but he might also be a deluded Konrad Curze who can't even see that his visions are self-fulfilling and the only way to stay alive is to stay on the tightrope - no other choice matters? (Because once you're dead you can't make choices.)

I'd like to reference The Outcast Dead at this point too - Graham pulled in some utterly terrific ideas (but I didn't care for their portrayal too much) but in the interests of decency I'll leave it at that.

So Mankind's Master - you've got an utterly amazing piece bringing together all of these viewpoints. To the point that Aaron's basically challenging you to find all the flavours in a massive buffet and then come back and tell him what meal you had. There's so much depth, so many competing aspersions being cast from so many different viewpoints that the whole thing can feel boggling. It certainly feels more maddening still if you mistake (what I suspect is) his earnest portrayal of ideas he seems to massively enjoy ..., to mistake those for him saying, absolutely, categorically, that the ideas he enjoys, or even just enjoys exploring in prose, are the 100% definitive truth about the setting.

In short, even if Laurie, Aaron, GW's IP, Alan Merrett, Rick Priestly and a choir of angels turn up to tell you that this version is definitive and that yours is wrong...

Of course, this matters not a tinker's cuss to your enjoyment of Warhammer. If you don't like the official storylines, or the principles of the setting, you absolutely SHOULD feel free to follow your own path with it all. Literally, do whatever makes you happy. It's all toy soldiers, and we're all massive geeks.

---

It's no that Aaron is wrong because it's all subjective and you can do what you like, but that getting into arguments about who's right and who's wrong (well, arguments good - hinging things on settling the contention, not so good) isn't going to progress things.

Also, as Laurie says - there's a weight of evidence too. They're headcanon is substantially closer to the centre* than yours.

* That's a Wraight's White Scars approved sort of centre.

[MrDarth151]

We will know who will win when GW closes the doors .

 

Or when 40k sales drop. Like Fantasy.

 

I suppose the entire thing annoys me slightly because there are multiple places in the codexes where they go "But there may still be salvation for humanity" and being a dedicated 40k fan for near a decade now, I have often used those as evidence when defending it from criticisms, first and foremost being that 40k is thematically shallow because there is nothing more to it than masochistic joy at watching the universe die while knowing action of every protagonist is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

 

Being explicitly told that I was wrong to defend it from such criticism, because that is the entire point grates on me.

 

In the good news category: I'm actually liking The Master of Mankind more than I expected to.

 

Even if it does make me cringe at times.

[Sete]

 

 

We will know who will win when GW closes the doors .

...there is nothing more to it than masochistic joy at watching the universe die while knowing action of every protagonist is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

Grimdark.

[MrDarth151]

We will know who will win when GW closes the doors .

...there is nothing more to it than masochistic joy at watching the universe die while knowing action of every protagonist is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

Grimdark.

I always find 40k writing to be at its most shallow and creatively bankrupt when it indulges in excessive Grimdarkness. But I suppose that's a difference in taste.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

I've always said TMoM.

 

As in, in emails to Aaron with the header "Your TMoM so fat..." etc etc.

Confirmed as true.

 

My earliest ever email on the subject (from Nick Kyme) is "MoM", but there's one soon after where I mentioned about preferring it with a The. A year or so before that, I did the same with The Talon of Horus. The default title had no The, but I think adding a The is all classy an' stuff.

 

Just in case you thought this post couldn't get any more tedious, well, buckle up. When it came time to choose whether it was The Master of Mankind: War in the Webway, or Master of Mankind: The War in the Webway, my responses were variously "Whatever you prefer", "I don't mind", and "Is the cover done yet can I see the cover please Laurie come on."

i heart that TMoM vs MoM became an actual discussion

[mc warhammer]

 

 

We will know who will win when GW closes the doors .

Or when 40k sales drop. Like Fantasy.

 

I suppose the entire thing annoys me slightly because there are multiple places in the codexes where they go "But there may still be salvation for humanity" and being a dedicated 40k fan for near a decade now, I have often used those as evidence when defending it from criticisms, first and foremost being that 40k is thematically shallow because there is nothing more to it than masochistic joy at watching the universe die while knowing action of every protagonist is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

 

Being explicitly told that I was wrong to defend it from such criticism, because that is the entire point grates on me.

 

In the good news category: I'm actually liking The Master of Mankind more than I expected to.

 

Even if it does make me cringe at times.

you weren't wrong to defend it against such criticism.

 

you are wrong that just because the (debatable) "goodies" aren't destined to win, that it's thematically shallow.

 

"last stand" stories are some of the most powerful

[MrDarth151]

 

 

We will know who will win when GW closes the doors .

Or when 40k sales drop. Like Fantasy.

 

I suppose the entire thing annoys me slightly because there are multiple places in the codexes where they go "But there may still be salvation for humanity" and being a dedicated 40k fan for near a decade now, I have often used those as evidence when defending it from criticisms, first and foremost being that 40k is thematically shallow because there is nothing more to it than masochistic joy at watching the universe die while knowing action of every protagonist is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

 

Being explicitly told that I was wrong to defend it from such criticism, because that is the entire point grates on me.

 

In the good news category: I'm actually liking The Master of Mankind more than I expected to.

 

Even if it does make me cringe at times.

you weren't wrong to defend it against such criticism.

 

you are wrong that just because the (debatable) "goodies" aren't destined to win, that it's thematically shallow.

 

"last stand" stories are some of the most powerful

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, where have I ever argued that "goodies" should be destined to win?

 

I've said that I prefer the ending to the setting to be ambigious. That doesn't mean "AND THE IMPERIUM MUST WIN YOU GUYS!!!". It means exactly what I've written: That we actually don't know with certainty how the eternal war of 40k will end. The insistance that Chaos must be the ultimate winner no matter what seems rather strange when we have multiple suggestions of it being otherwise uncertain (The Ynnead plan for Eldar. The suggestion of succesful ascension of Humanity in the main rulebook. The Thorians and theories about Emperor's resurection. The Terminus Sanction and possibility of it succesfully saving humanity. The suggestion that Necrons, Tyranids and Orks may overwhelm the galaxy and deny other forces victory. To name just some.).

 

If there is not ambiguity supposed to be present, then what about those things? If all there is to 40k is Chaos ultimately winning and we were never supposed to question that outcome in the slightest, then I suppose that the writers that put those things into rulebooks as recent as of 7th edition were wrong and the editors that overseen their work just didn't get the memo?

 

The quotes are right. There. I haven't made them up. They are not something that GW never printed. They are in the rulebooks, the most basic source of information for anyone that deals with the tabletop. This is not my headcannon we are dealing here with, but statements in primary 40k material. Why do they exist, if they are not supposed to?

 

But at any rate, this discussion if off-topic here. If you want to continue this line of debate, we might want to create a new topic for it. I've said what I've meant to say.

[mc warhammer]

 

I'm sorry, where have I ever argued that "goodies" should be destined to win?

 

 

 

right here:

 

"there is nothing more to it than masochistic joy at watching the universe die while knowing action of every protagonist is ultimately meaningless and pointless."

 

the implication being that the opposite is more worthwhile and what you desire from the books. if you disagree with my interpretation of your words, then i invoke death of the author and win.

 

as many people have pointed out in this thread and i haven't really seen you ever counter, some of those quotes you provide could be in-universe povs or just outdated. as for providing examples, i've provided plenty  of examples in popular culture where the eventual fate of the characters and/or circumstance is a foregone conclusion either due to fate, inevitability of circumstance or just audience awareness of the mechanics of modern heroic fiction . 99% of it has a foregone conclusion/ winner, with a superficial layer of ambiguity at best.

 

black library is just more straight up and honest about the fate of its setting. (spoiler: the emperor kills horus at the seige of terra but horus still whups him good.)

 

and just because the setting itself is destined to end in a certain way, that doesn't take away from the personal stories and triumphs. every struggle, every win, every sacrifice is worth something on a smaller, more personal scale. the plot and characterisation can still be rich with all those things you ask for (and it bloody well is), even if the the overall setting is doom. don't confuse the back drop with the various plots.

[MrDarth151]

Fine, let's continue with this foolishness. Apologies if I appear snarky, this is a point when I become slightly annoyed and I am starting to stop caring.

 

 

the implication being that the opposite is more worthwhile and what you desire from the books.

 

Indeed. I consider constant screeming of "DOOOOOM!!!" from the pages to be quite juvenile and uninteresting, as far as writing goes, and I'm happy to report that most writers for 40k succesfully avoid that tendency.

 

 

if you disagree with my interpretation of your words, then i invoke death of the author and win.

 

And that is a mature way of conducting a discussion in your point of view? Because that seems rather childish to me.

 

 

as many people have pointed out in this thread and i haven't really seen you ever counter, some of those quotes you provide could be in-universe povs or just outdated.

 

The quotes I specifically brought up are from the point of a narrator from the 7th edition main rulebook. So they fit neither of your criteria. They are neither outdated nor in-universe povs.

 

 

as for providing examples, i've provided plenty  of examples in popular culture where the eventual fate of the characters and/or circumstance is a foregone conclusion either due to fate, inevitability of circumstance or just audience awareness of the mechanics of modern heroic fiction . 99% of it has a foregone conclusion/ winner, with a superficial layer of ambiguity at best.

 

Don't see how that does tie to our discussion here.

 

 

black library is just more straight up and honest about the fate of its setting.

 

That's actually heavily author dependant.

 

 

(spoiler: the emperor kills horus at the seige of terra but horus still whups him good.)

 

Don't see how that is relevant to the discussion, Horus is basically meaningless in the grand scheme of things at this point. He is a primarch shaped bullet for the Chaos Gods.

 

 

and just because the setting itself is destined to end in a certain way, that doesn't take away from the personal stories and triumphs.

 

Oh yes it does. Quite heavily, in fact.

 

 

every struggle, every win, every sacrifice is worth something on a smaller, more personal scale.

 

No, it is not. Every victory is a loss. Because every second Imperium exists new people are born. People whose only fate is to live out their short, pathethic lives in a Imperium that commits atrocities for no cause at all, because it cannot win, and then to be eternally tortured as playthings of the neverborn. Every person born in this universe is destined for an eternity of unspeakable suffering and there is nothing that can be done about it, because the only entity that could stop it is rendered utterly inconsequential by writers. Every new human birth in this universe is an act of cruelty.

 

The Horus Heresy have done the impossible and managed to succesfully establish a state of reality in which both John Grammaticus and Eldrad Ulthane look like morons because they don't do everything in their power to cause a galaxy wide genocide. Which is by all accounts better option than actually wishing for protagonist to win, because every life saved in this universe may go on to procreate and consign another soul into being a toy for the Chaos gods.

 

 

the plot and characterisation can still be rich with all those things you ask for (and it bloody well is), even if the the overall setting is doom.

 

No, it cannot. It turns every person to ever fight for the Imperium into delusional idiot. It turns the very act of defending humanity into stupid cruelty that only causes more souls to be brought into the world to eventually suffer eternal damnation.

 

As of right now, the metaphysics of the universe dictate that the complete destruction of Humanity is the most positive outcome, because fate of every living human is to become a little battery that powers Chaos Gods through eternal suffering. The preservation of humankind is a crime against it, at this point.

 

Or did you really not think of implications for the universe where human beings have actual souls and gods are both evil and unstoppable?

 

 

don't confuse the back drop with the various plots.

 

I don't, I argue that the back drop completely overwhelms any plots that might exist at this point.

 

And please, for the sake of not derailing the thread, any answers to that should go into either a dedicated thread or a pm.

[Tyriks]

Fine, let's continue with this foolishness. Apologies if I appear snarky, this is a point when I become slightly annoyed and I am starting to stop caring.

 

 

 

the implication being that the opposite is more worthwhile and what you desire from the books.

 

 

Indeed. I consider constant screeming of "DOOOOOM!!!" from the pages to be quite juvenile and uninteresting, as far as writing goes, and I'm happy to report that most writers for 40k succesfully avoid that tendency.

 

 

if you disagree with my interpretation of your words, then i invoke death of the author and win.

 

 

And that is a mature way of conducting a discussion in your point of view? Because that seems rather childish to me.

 

 

as many people have pointed out in this thread and i haven't really seen you ever counter, some of those quotes you provide could be in-universe povs or just outdated.

 

 

The quotes I specifically brought up are from the point of a narrator from the 7th edition main rulebook. So they fit neither of your criteria. They are neither outdated nor in-universe povs.

 

 

as for providing examples, i've provided plenty  of examples in popular culture where the eventual fate of the characters and/or circumstance is a foregone conclusion either due to fate, inevitability of circumstance or just audience awareness of the mechanics of modern heroic fiction . 99% of it has a foregone conclusion/ winner, with a superficial layer of ambiguity at best.

 

 

Don't see how that does tie to our discussion here.

 

 

black library is just more straight up and honest about the fate of its setting.

 

 

That's actually heavily author dependant.

 

 

(spoiler: the emperor kills horus at the seige of terra but horus still whups him good.)

 

 

Don't see how that is relevant to the discussion, Horus is basically meaningless in the grand scheme of things at this point. He is a primarch shaped bullet for the Chaos Gods.

 

 

and just because the setting itself is destined to end in a certain way, that doesn't take away from the personal stories and triumphs.

 

 

Oh yes it does. Quite heavily, in fact.

 

 

every struggle, every win, every sacrifice is worth something on a smaller, more personal scale.

 

 

No, it is not. Every victory is a loss. Because every second Imperium exists new people are born. People whose only fate is to live out their short, pathethic lives in a Imperium that commits atrocities for no cause at all, because it cannot win, and then to be eternally tortured as playthings of the neverborn. Every person born in this universe is destined for an eternity of unspeakable suffering and there is nothing that can be done about it, because the only entity that could stop it is rendered utterly inconsequential by writers. Every new human birth in this universe is an act of cruelty.

 

The Horus Heresy have done the impossible and managed to succesfully establish a state of reality in which both John Grammaticus and Eldrad Ulthane look like morons because they don't do everything in their power to cause a galaxy wide genocide. Which is by all accounts better option than actually wishing for protagonist to win, because every life saved in this universe may go on to procreate and consign another soul into being a toy for the Chaos gods.

 

 

the plot and characterisation can still be rich with all those things you ask for (and it bloody well is), even if the the overall setting is doom.

 

 

No, it cannot. It turns every person to ever fight for the Imperium into delusional idiot. It turns the very act of defending humanity into stupid cruelty that only causes more souls to be brought into the world to eventually suffer eternal damnation.

 

As of right now, the metaphysics of the universe dictate that the complete destruction of Humanity is the most positive outcome, because fate of every living human is to become a little battery that powers Chaos Gods through eternal suffering. The preservation of humankind is a crime against it, at this point.

 

Or did you really not think of implications for the universe where human beings have actual souls and gods are both evil and unstoppable?

 

 

don't confuse the back drop with the various plots.

 

 

I don't, I argue that the back drop completely overwhelms any plots that might exist at this point.

 

And please, for the sake of not derailing the thread, any answers to that should go into either a dedicated thread or a pm.

If everything that happens in a doomed Imperium is pointless, then it's pointless either way. With or without chaos, those people are born into the harshest tyranny imaginable, live unimportant lives, and die forgotten. Even if no chaos or xenos topples the Imperium, it's days are limited by the temporary nature of the universe. The best they could hope for is to survive long enough to die of heat death. That's true of the real world, too, yet you obviously don't think life is pointless because the human race is guaranteed to go extinct. If all you want is a guarantee that life will continue, common sense kills that hope way before the grimdarkness of 40k gets a chance.

[Loesh]

In conclusion: It's the journey, not the end.

[Wulfburk]

Im just gonna leave this as no one responded to my other posts in this topic about this whole debate...

Of course. At a time like this, it is the best way to stay focused,’ said the figure, moving his Emperor forward in an aggressive move designed to tempt Kai to rashness. ‘If you want to know a man’s true character, play a game with him. In any case, the future is the future, and my feelings towards it will not change it one way or the other.

Truly? Even you can’t change it?’ said Kai, willingly taking the bait.

The figure shrugged, as though they discussed something trivial. ‘Some things need to happen, Kai. Even the most terrible things you can imagine sometimes need to happen.’

‘Why?’

His opponent moved his Divinitarch into a blocking position, and said, ‘Because sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning.’

Kai scanned the board, seeing he had no more moves to make.

‘Stalemate,’ he said.

The figure spread his hands in an empty gesture of apology. ‘I know some people think me omnipotent, but there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing.’

‘Which is?’

‘You can’t be both at the same time,’ said the figure with a wry smile.

‘So what happens now?’

‘I finish the game.’

‘This one?’ asked Kai, puzzled.

‘No,’ said the figure. ‘Our game is done, and I thank you for it.’

‘Will I see you again?’

His opponent laughed. ‘Who knows, Kai? If our game has taught me anything, it is that all things are possible.’

‘But you’re going to die.’

‘I know,’ said the Emperor

So im sorry but i cant accept that chaos has won. I do think it may be in the process of winning, and of course the whole emperor's plan in the great crusade was forcibly changed because of the horus heresy. But then.... sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning, and that is what the Emperor decided to do, he knew all of his plans woudnt come to pass, so instead of giving up he decided to at least keep humanity from losing to the powers of chaos in the long run, and that required the whole Imperium that we have now that worships him like a God and etc, but actively fights chaos influence within and outside. Which is what makes for me w40k so great and not just uh they won. Having the good guys win is just as lame as having the bad guys win and that is it . After all, hasnt even ADB said that this is a setting? so saying basically that chaos has won is much different than it is -WINNING-..... or in the process, or whatever.

From Outcast Dead and other sources its pretty sure the Emperor thinks he hasnt lost totally and that there is a extended life for HUMANITY (not for him as he said so in Outcast Dead) he coudnt be more clear about that.... outside of MoM where he ended being clueless in the end, with the totally out of character... "i dont know".

Again, just my opinion and no offence to anyone and ADB and Laurie. Like i said i really liked MoM, just like all of those that ive read in the series.

And yeah, its about the journey, towards thaat specific ending we are not so sure what it is! So things that happen in the journey have the tiny chance of affect the ending

[mc warhammer]

Fine, let's continue with this foolishness. Apologies if I appear snarky, this is a point when I become slightly annoyed and I am starting to stop caring.

 

 

the implication being that the opposite is more worthwhile and what you desire from the books.

Indeed. I consider constant screeming of "DOOOOOM!!!" from the pages to be quite juvenile and uninteresting, as far as writing goes, and I'm happy to report that most writers for 40k succesfully avoid that tendency.

if you disagree with my interpretation of your words, then i invoke death of the author and win.

And that is a mature way of conducting a discussion in your point of view? Because that seems rather childish to me.

as many people have pointed out in this thread and i haven't really seen you ever counter, some of those quotes you provide could be in-universe povs or just outdated.

The quotes I specifically brought up are from the point of a narrator from the 7th edition main rulebook. So they fit neither of your criteria. They are neither outdated nor in-universe povs.

as for providing examples, i've provided plenty of examples in popular culture where the eventual fate of the characters and/or circumstance is a foregone conclusion either due to fate, inevitability of circumstance or just audience awareness of the mechanics of modern heroic fiction . 99% of it has a foregone conclusion/ winner, with a superficial layer of ambiguity at best.

Don't see how that does tie to our discussion here.

black library is just more straight up and honest about the fate of its setting.

That's actually heavily author dependant.

(spoiler: the emperor kills horus at the seige of terra but horus still whups him good.)

Don't see how that is relevant to the discussion, Horus is basically meaningless in the grand scheme of things at this point. He is a primarch shaped bullet for the Chaos Gods.

and just because the setting itself is destined to end in a certain way, that doesn't take away from the personal stories and triumphs.

Oh yes it does. Quite heavily, in fact.

every struggle, every win, every sacrifice is worth something on a smaller, more personal scale.

No, it is not. Every victory is a loss. Because every second Imperium exists new people are born. People whose only fate is to live out their short, pathethic lives in a Imperium that commits atrocities for no cause at all, because it cannot win, and then to be eternally tortured as playthings of the neverborn. Every person born in this universe is destined for an eternity of unspeakable suffering and there is nothing that can be done about it, because the only entity that could stop it is rendered utterly inconsequential by writers. Every new human birth in this universe is an act of cruelty.

 

The Horus Heresy have done the impossible and managed to succesfully establish a state of reality in which both John Grammaticus and Eldrad Ulthane look like morons because they don't do everything in their power to cause a galaxy wide genocide. Which is by all accounts better option than actually wishing for protagonist to win, because every life saved in this universe may go on to procreate and consign another soul into being a toy for the Chaos gods.

the plot and characterisation can still be rich with all those things you ask for (and it bloody well is), even if the the overall setting is doom.

 

No, it cannot. It turns every person to ever fight for the Imperium into delusional idiot. It turns the very act of defending humanity into stupid cruelty that only causes more souls to be brought into the world to eventually suffer eternal damnation.

 

As of right now, the metaphysics of the universe dictate that the complete destruction of Humanity is the most positive outcome, because fate of every living human is to become a little battery that powers Chaos Gods through eternal suffering. The preservation of humankind is a crime against it, at this point.

 

Or did you really not think of implications for the universe where human beings have actual souls and gods are both evil and unstoppable?

don't confuse the back drop with the various plots.

I don't, I argue that the back drop completely overwhelms any plots that might exist at this point.

 

And please, for the sake of not derailing the thread, any answers to that should go into either a dedicated thread or a pm.

i'll pass. the points i made stand, and if you can't see the relevance or value in them, then no amount of discussion will change that.

 

in any case, my aim wasn't to convince you but i did want to make sure your points were countered in public, for anyone still making updates their minds.

[Marshal Rohr]

Fine, let's continue with this foolishness. Apologies if I appear snarky, this is a point when I become slightly annoyed and I am starting to stop caring.

 

 

the implication being that the opposite is more worthwhile and what you desire from the books.

Indeed. I consider constant screeming of "DOOOOOM!!!" from the pages to be quite juvenile and uninteresting, as far as writing goes, and I'm happy to report that most writers for 40k succesfully avoid that tendency.

if you disagree with my interpretation of your words, then i invoke death of the author and win.

And that is a mature way of conducting a discussion in your point of view? Because that seems rather childish to me.

as many people have pointed out in this thread and i haven't really seen you ever counter, some of those quotes you provide could be in-universe povs or just outdated.

The quotes I specifically brought up are from the point of a narrator from the 7th edition main rulebook. So they fit neither of your criteria. They are neither outdated nor in-universe povs.

as for providing examples, i've provided plenty of examples in popular culture where the eventual fate of the characters and/or circumstance is a foregone conclusion either due to fate, inevitability of circumstance or just audience awareness of the mechanics of modern heroic fiction . 99% of it has a foregone conclusion/ winner, with a superficial layer of ambiguity at best.

Don't see how that does tie to our discussion here.

black library is just more straight up and honest about the fate of its setting.

That's actually heavily author dependant.

(spoiler: the emperor kills horus at the seige of terra but horus still whups him good.)

Don't see how that is relevant to the discussion, Horus is basically meaningless in the grand scheme of things at this point. He is a primarch shaped bullet for the Chaos Gods.

and just because the setting itself is destined to end in a certain way, that doesn't take away from the personal stories and triumphs.

Oh yes it does. Quite heavily, in fact.

every struggle, every win, every sacrifice is worth something on a smaller, more personal scale.

No, it is not. Every victory is a loss. Because every second Imperium exists new people are born. People whose only fate is to live out their short, pathethic lives in a Imperium that commits atrocities for no cause at all, because it cannot win, and then to be eternally tortured as playthings of the neverborn. Every person born in this universe is destined for an eternity of unspeakable suffering and there is nothing that can be done about it, because the only entity that could stop it is rendered utterly inconsequential by writers. Every new human birth in this universe is an act of cruelty.

 

The Horus Heresy have done the impossible and managed to succesfully establish a state of reality in which both John Grammaticus and Eldrad Ulthane look like morons because they don't do everything in their power to cause a galaxy wide genocide. Which is by all accounts better option than actually wishing for protagonist to win, because every life saved in this universe may go on to procreate and consign another soul into being a toy for the Chaos gods.

the plot and characterisation can still be rich with all those things you ask for (and it bloody well is), even if the the overall setting is doom.

 

No, it cannot. It turns every person to ever fight for the Imperium into delusional idiot. It turns the very act of defending humanity into stupid cruelty that only causes more souls to be brought into the world to eventually suffer eternal damnation.

 

As of right now, the metaphysics of the universe dictate that the complete destruction of Humanity is the most positive outcome, because fate of every living human is to become a little battery that powers Chaos Gods through eternal suffering. The preservation of humankind is a crime against it, at this point.

 

Or did you really not think of implications for the universe where human beings have actual souls and gods are both evil and unstoppable?

don't confuse the back drop with the various plots.

I don't, I argue that the back drop completely overwhelms any plots that might exist at this point.

 

And please, for the sake of not derailing the thread, any answers to that should go into either a dedicated thread or a pm.

This is why no one takes your arguments seriously. The 'good' guys are a massive, feudal empire of various governments, armies, bureaucracies, and conglomerates made up of trillions and trillions of individuals, and only a handful of them are in tune with the fact the Imperium is losing the war. A private deployed to the Cadian Gate will have a vastly and mutually exclusive understanding of the Imperiums position from a guardsmen on the bleeding edge of a victorious crusade in Tempestus. It's like asking a German on the eastern front how the Japanese are holding up in the Pacific. 'I haven't eaten in nine days, but good news about them sinking that carrier! Victory is assured!' Even that is too familiar. It would be more appropriate to compare the opinion on a war between two Native American tribes held by an Omani spice trader. He wouldn't have a clue. Even the high lords won't have a clue that seething underneath reality chaos is only growing in strength. You act like every member of the Imperium gets instantaneous briefings on how strong the Chaos Gods are every morning with their coffee.

 

We the readers know humanity is doomed. Not even the principals in the setting, except maybe the Emperor, know for sure what is happening. That's why all the whining about making the imperials delusional is so ridiculous. Every day there are victorious and powerful imperial armies winning wars, and there are some that are losing. They have no control over the supernatural events taking place and no knowledge of them. Chaos' victory isn't the 'final turn' on a computer game where all the losers no longer get to do anything. As of right now Abaddon is not at Terra and we won't know how close to falling the Imperium is until the rebooted fluff for 8th edition. Until then it would be best if you stop.

 

There isn't a single poster on this forum more invested in the Imperium than I am, and somehow you are acting like every person here is a chaos player salivating over the Imperium losing.

[Kelborn]

Not again THIS discussion

 

May I remind you of what happened the last time?

 

Thread was locked

 

Do you want that again to happen?