Midwest Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I'm surprised no one's mentioned the reference to the "is it gold or blue" dress meme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4596572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Just finished this in a two-day binge. Not sure if I'll re-read.My thoughts:- I actually like the idea of the Primarchs meaning less to the Emperor than He does to the Primarchs. Mostly because it underscores the hubris and vanity that seems so prevalent in all of them and has already been shown in other contexts - even the "I'm SUPER humble, the MOST humblest" aspect that some of them exude. Admittedly, I am also someone who loves Oldhammer in part because of how "pathetic" the universe was in that setting - even Marines were relatively expendable and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, and the more I think of how things were presented here, the more I love the idea of the Marine-love being undermined by the Emperor having little sentimentality towards even the Primarchs, relatively speaking. And yes, I get that the way the Emperor communicates leaves hope for those fanboys who simply can't have their Legions and Primarchs NOT BE the center of the universe, but I for one much prefer taking the Emperor's wording and comments at face value and at full implication.- The use of "fallen" loyalists - Primarch included - struck me as more the Emperor playing a mental game with the Traitor Marines he was fighting (along with the Daemons) than Him expressing any kind of emotional attachment to them.- The importance of Drach'nyen felt a little too "cute". Not completely over the top, but maybe borderline fanboy-level "clever". By that I mean, I probably agree with some here that I still kinda prefer the HH background as the original snippets and occasional story, rather than the fleshed out series. I really like the "day to day" details the HH series has given us - things like the use of Medieval-esque "humours" as ways Marines used to assess their personalities - but the drawing out of the bigger plots I think has tended too much at times at unnecessary dot-connecting and use of ironic comparison to the 40k versions and views of things. I didn't think Drach'nyen was dumb, per say, but I don't think it added as much to the plot as maybe was intended, whether in terms of meaning or anything else. Also the way it ended with Ra felt a little too Draigo-ish.- I really liked Land a lot, but he was a bit more passively used than I would have liked. By which I mean, it felt like he was mostly there to move the plot along or help another character reveal something. There's a point too, where he refers to himself as a "gentleman adventurer" or such, that felt a little too "telling not showing", as it were. Otherwise I finished the book wishing there could be a novel that focuses on his pre-heresy explorations.- I'm surprised more hasn't been said about the Unspoken Sanction. To me that seems like the most significant aspect of this story as a 40k fan, as the setup of the HH series portrayed the grimdark of the 40k-verse as an irony of how the Imperium was presumably intended. Yet one of the most grimdarkian elements was designed and implemented by order of the Emperor Hisself. In hindsight, I kinda wish there had been a lot more focus and backstory on that plot.- The use of "the Golden" and "the Ten Thousand" as constant synonyms for the Costodes just didn't work for me. Not sure why, just made the text clunky at times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4596582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I always wanted a version where all the primarchs turn on the Emperor. The Emperor becomes the most sinister villain in 40k, yet he knew exactly what he was doing, becoming imbued with power, then becomes the Avatar of Chaos. Gets Confronted by all his sons at once and after an epic battle of nuclear war like proportions the Emperor is dead, reborn as the star child and learns the ways of the imperium he made as the star child, re born, now though the role is reversed. His sons teaching him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4596605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uprising Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 I hate to ask, but I have been hearing a rumor that a certain custodies in the book shares a similar name to a certain custodies in the emperor text to speech series? I have the book arriving in the mail, but I am just curious. I'm pretty brazen in my nods to the community (freem; choom, etc.) but I have no idea about this one, sorry! (I saw the first episode of that a long time ago - I didn't realise the characters even had names.) Thank you for the respond. Book is said to be in my mailbox tomorrow. I am looking forward to it greatly. A bit sad kitten not canon, but you can't win them all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4596809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arendious Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Great, now I'm hearing "Arkhan Land, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!" every time I read his name... Did I miss a sub-plot involving him trying to convince a curvy, blonde magos into being his apprentice? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4596846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Great, now I'm hearing "Arkhan Land, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!" every time I read his name... Did I miss a sub-plot involving him trying to convince a curvy, blonde magos into being his apprentice? I really loved Arkhan Land's characterization and I hope there will be a series created on him - there's so much that could be explored. Ironically, I think I like him because I see him as how I would be like as an Adept of the Mechanicum: haughty, humorous in my own faults, and sort of distant when faced with the reality of situations. While other adepts we've seen so far are very binary in their personification (ha I see the pun), Arkhan actually has much of his human emotion intact. In a world of arrogant techies, he's even more arrogant in that he doesn't go full robot because he believes in the seamless interaction between humanity and technology. I can't help but love the guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4596874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 I really did like his relative lack of augmentation and his reasoning for that. And his audience with the Emperor may end up being one of my all-time favorite scenes in the HH series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4597216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 OK, do I'm stuck on my phone and will flesh this out if needed later. 1. The book is amazing. It is heavy. It's kind of just a weight in my mind right now, as I read it in a sitting for the most part yesterday, wrapping the last bit today. There is a melancholy to this book, no real tear jerking moments that hit you in the feels, just the crushing reality of the defeat of humanity. Spoilers: I've always seen the righteousness in Chaos, and the very real moral arguments for ripping down the Imperium of 40K, so to see the goals of the Emperor made plain, and the perverted truth that turns into 40K, is grim indeed. The Sanction I'm glad is mentioned in the afterword. The Imperium is THWARTING ITS OWN SALVATION. I've always thought on this, how can man become a psyker race, when it eats a thousand of those psykers a day? The beauty of 30K is that it shows us exactly what is lost in the transition to 40K, and when. The Last Remembrancer is one of my favourite pieces because of that. Anyway. 2. I get the feeling very much, that this book is a message. 'you guys are missing the big picture' kind of thing. The fact we had pages and pages of ' the Emperor calls them numbers, I'm upset' is unfathomable to me. We are given proof, undeniable, of how, why, and when, the salvation of humanity fails. We are given explanation to some of the big questions. Is the Emperor all seeing? No. Is the Emperor all powerful? No. Is He powerful beyond human compare? Yes. Is he unbelievably arrogant, self assured, tyrannical, and more? Yes. It's amazing that we discuss all these things that where meaningless when set within the context of the Great Work. Chaos corrupts, and humanity will fall without the Emperor, and without the Webway. It's stunning really that these bigger things were not the focus of discussion. I mean as clear as day, this is when the notion of ultimate victory in His eyes and definition, is lost. This is one more step on the road to the untrusting, vile, barbarism we see in 40K, and the formation of the Imperial institutional stunting of humanities evolution. The human race will never be free now, will never evolve, will never know progress. Heavy stuff, and yet in the end we can still rage against the dying of the light. Amazing book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4597504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Ok, I am only halfway through the book at the moment, Loving it so far, and loving the questions it is throwing up. now...the whole idea the emperor is perceived in a different way by each person based on how they themselves "want" to see him. Got me thinking.. This could have in turn put another slant on why each of the primarchs turned or did not turn on him. For example, Angron sees the emperor as an arch conqueror, no better than the high riders who he rebelled against. because that is how he has perceived people in power all his life. Lorgar perceived the emperor as a god..because that is what he experienced on Colchis . Mortarion/ Perturabo saw the emperor as a tryant because that was their experiences growing up . Russ grew up respecting warriors strength, loyalty, etc there for saw in the emperor all these traits, Dorn / Guliiman valued duty, respect etc.....anyway I hope you can see what im getting at. does this make sense to anyone else? or just me???? somewhat works with the IA depictions of the emp meeting his sons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Perhaps I missed it in other discussion The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claw; half seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armor. Flames - check Returned dead - check Able to use the webway to be anywhere - check 100% loyal to the Emperor - check Did we witness an origin tale mixed in MoM? My favorite part of the story was Pinocchio. Of course the automata would call its creator "father"; but more than explaining something the Land, it served to connect the tale to "us" if that makes sense. I always appreciate when a distant scifi narrative has an anchor, especially one as mundane as a child's tale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 No. The LotD origins are already pretty well established as being the remnants of the Fire Hawks. They've never been associated with "half seen" icons of any of the original legions, nor the ghost of any Primarch, nor anything else associated with Isstvan. They also have no sightings prior to the current millennium - post the disappearance of the Fire Hawks and certainly nothing indicating an existence that stretches back to the Heresy. Plus, I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm fairly certain that Master of Mankind clearly indicates that these apparitions were formed/created by the Emperor as manifestations of his psychic power, rather than being independent creations that will exist or reappear beyond this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 What Midwest said. Would of been cool if legion of the dammed shared a time paradox. But sadly that is rumor mongering miss direction only. " ............................just as planned" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 No. The LotD origins are already pretty well established as being the remnants of the Fire Hawks. They've never been associated with "half seen" icons of any of the original legions, nor the ghost of any Primarch, nor anything else associated with Isstvan. They also have no sightings prior to the current millennium - post the disappearance of the Fire Hawks and certainly nothing indicating an existence that stretches back to the Heresy. Plus, I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm fairly certain that Master of Mankind clearly indicates that these apparitions were formed/created by the Emperor as manifestations of his psychic power, rather than being independent creations that will exist or reappear beyond this point. OK. Thanks for that. The "seed" just got started in my mind with the images when I was reading. I wasn't aware when they first appeared. Makes more sense, with noin sightings from 30K to post Fire Hawks, for them to not be revenants of the "web war". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I think it was just a reflection of the fact that the Warp, is literally our souls. When the E gets a big flame wall going, he is using the Warp, and it manifested as Souls of the loyal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 The Legion of the Damned aren't confirmed to be the Fire Hawks, though. That's just *one* of the *given* theories. In the same paragraph that gives that theory it also gives the theory that they are fallen battle brothers that were reborn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 "Considered by some to be an extension of the Emperor's superhuman will" -https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Legion-of-the-Damned-Squad That's another, third explaination. The fact is that no one knows, and those have ALWAYS been presented as only THEORIES. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 True, but I think they've always been the "wink wink" type of theories that GW often does, rather than truly meant to be left unknown and up for debate. YMMV, of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4599854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I was given MoM for Christmas and have just finished reading it and then read this thread. One question that I want to ask but hasn't been brought up before now is What on Terra is "Auramite"? It seems like it's what Custodes armour is made from but I've not heard the term before. Have I missed something or is this a new piece of information? I assume it's also what the Emperor's armour is made from but not the Primarchs. What about the SoS? On the whole I loved the book, I thought the insights it gave and hinted at were fantastic. Can't wait for the siege of Terra now. Cheers Vogon. Edit, it also makes me want to buy a Knight Castigator and paint it gold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Aurum is Latin for gold. Arumite is gold colored ceramite. Lorgar is called Aurelian because of his golden skin as another example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 lol reminds me of that episode of if the Emperor had a text to speech drive on why he chose Dorn over Perturabo to build the Imperial Palace...because he plated everything in gold lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4609013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydriatus Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Just a note about the Legion of the Damned connection - Chapter's Due did have Legion of the Damned spectres appear specifically of Ultramarines who died in the Heresy... But anyways, seriously looking forward to more of Land, he was easily my favourite character in the book - and ADB did mention we can expect to see him during the siege... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4610275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Finally finished it... amazing novel ! Regarding Ra and the daemon I think it was actually a reverse possession. Sneaky gits. XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4612289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1000 Sons Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Going to start annoying people by saying 'these termies are in this Land's raider, and the Land's raider over here has...' Love how Emp only really cares for the custodes, the space marines and primarchs are treated like thunder warriors 2.0, serve your purpose then poof, the Imperium is for man. Emperor has put all his work into ushering in a time when the race of man is capable of defending and existing without the need of mutation or genetic enhancements. If the Emperor had his way and succeeded it makes me wonder if he would have pushed even further and tried to conquer the warp gods themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4612417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Did anyone notice that Diocletian hears the Emperor say Horus' name? Because He does so twice, and distinctly says "he", not "it". I wonder if He steered Ra towards seeing himself as the Emperor's one true servant, and disdain for the Primarchs was part of that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4622955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I liked that Ra's will was so strong that even tho possesed by dracyhen he was still in control. Ultimately I think everyone who sees the Emperor see/hear what they want to see/hear hence Land seeing a cold scientist Ra seeing a trusting father figure Lorgar seeing a god Primarchs seeing a father Astartes seeing a lord of battles Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4623182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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