Ancient Terror Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 8 pages and no one has mentioned Zephon's moment of 'Drive me closer so I can hit it with my sword'? http://i.imgur.com/BgJmlbN.jpg Zephon is a baller. That scene was badass. But considering what happens right after, I'm not surprised if it didn't register that strongly for a lot of readers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civsmitty Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 I enjoyed the frank realism of the last few pages of TMoM, honestly. One of my largest complaints about the BL is that Rule 1 appears to be The Imperium Never Loses. Sure, one could argue that Chaos, Orks, et. al have loads of documented victories...off camera. You'll never see Abbadon taking Lysander's skull in a BL book, though Praetorian of Dorn happened. ADB flat out saying the War for the Imperium is to be decided, but the War for Humanity's Independence is lost was refreshingly stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Indeed ADB himself went to great lengths to highlight the fact that in the Warp there is only the Now and that everything that happens can touch any point in creation. I can't remember if it was he or John French who wrote "humans think of time as a river, but it is an ocean, it's waves crashing against each other in the tidal pull" or something along those lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 8 pages and no one has mentioned Zephon's moment of 'Drive me closer so I can hit it with my sword'? http://i.imgur.com/BgJmlbN.jpg Uh... page 6 dude. Was one of my favourite parts of the book. Just finished the book and really enjoyed it, will get into more nuanced discussion later, but for now... am I the only one who interpreted Zephon's command to Land to get him closer to the possessed Archimandrite as a version of the "Drive me closer, I want to hit it with my sword" meme? Because if that was intentional than I think it even trumps the inclusion of 'choom' as a cool reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I enjoyed the frank realism of the last few pages of TMoM, honestly. One of my largest complaints about the BL is that Rule 1 appears to be The Imperium Never Loses. Sure, one could argue that Chaos, Orks, et. al have loads of documented victories...off camera. You'll never see Abbadon taking Lysander's skull in a BL book, though Praetorian of Dorn happened. ADB flat out saying the War for the Imperium is to be decided, but the War for Humanity's Independence is lost was refreshingly stark. ADB is the fan boy for Chaos and traitors so of course he would say that ... his works always reflect this as well. While I don't particularly like the big E some of the loyalist Primarchs are made of the right stuff and shine. All of the traitors got what they deserved, some of them coming out on top such as Magnus who would have been slaved to the golden throne... its only fitting the big E sits there now and some say it was Dorn who shackled him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I enjoyed the frank realism of the last few pages of TMoM, honestly. One of my largest complaints about the BL is that Rule 1 appears to be The Imperium Never Loses. Sure, one could argue that Chaos, Orks, et. al have loads of documented victories...off camera. You'll never see Abbadon taking Lysander's skull in a BL book, though Praetorian of Dorn happened. ADB flat out saying the War for the Imperium is to be decided, but the War for Humanity's Independence is lost was refreshingly stark. ADB is the fan boy for Chaos and traitors so of course he would say that ... his works always reflect this as well. While I don't particularly like the big E some of the loyalist Primarchs are made of the right stuff and shine. All of the traitors got what they deserved, some of them coming out on top such as Magnus who would have been slaved to the golden throne... its only fitting the big E sits there now and some say it was Dorn who shackled him there. Yea, going to have to throw a flag on that play. His works dont always reflect that. Have you read Helreach, Ragnar Blackmane, Cadian Blood or Emperor's Blood? All loyalist novels, all friggin awesome, and all penned by A D-B. If he has any fault, its that he makes his characters too realistic. It makes the magority of the BL stable look bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Yea, going to have to throw a flag on that play. I agree. I'd like to give Black Orange the benefit of the doubt and assume he's not implying that a AD-B's faction preferences/predilections affect the plot points of his stories, but it's hard to read it any other way. It's been covered ad nauseam on these boards and elsewhere how insulting that assumption is to an author, to say nothing of how patently untrue it is of AD-B's body of work. EDIT: typos make me sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Yea, going to have to throw a flag on that play. I agree. I'd like to give Black Orange the benefit of the doubt and assume he's not implying that an AD-B's faction preferences/predilections affect the plot points of his stories, but it's hard to read it any other way. It's been covered ad nauseam on these boards and elsewhere how insulting that assumption is to an author, to say nothing of how patently untrue it his of AD-B's body of work. A D-B is such a fantastic writer I'd want him to write my obituary,make me sound fantastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 He's not one sided as a writer his work portrays the setting as a whole he is a true hobbyist and fan and it reflects in his writings. This book was just beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I am rising to join the ADB Defense Front. While it is surely down to personal tastes in the end, it kind of dimishes the effort that goes into his work. Others as well, but we are talikng MoM and ADB at the moment. Personally, I feel he and Abnett go the extra mile to keep the bigger picture in mind and give a spotlight moment to everyone involved (like how the Gaunt series is guard-centered but there is so much thought going into what makes Blood Pact work, even if so much is offscreen). And if you check ADB's posts on his blog and the B&C and elsewhere, you can glimpse at the excitement and, heck, the love for the whole setting. Not just one faction. That's why i am rambling here. ADB isn't a chaos fanboy. He is a WARHAMMER UNIVERSE FANBOY. There, Geek Moment of the Day. And ADB - please do not speak at my funeral... all that swearing ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 Reading the novel now and just finished the first part I do find it interesting to see how some of the Custodes view Space Marines. Certainly the one is quite arrogant but I wouldn't judge them all based upon his account. There is certainly a difference from the prior novel First Heretic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ikka Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 In all honesty, the Custodes have both the right and the ability to condescend to Legionares. Custodes are much more capable, as individuals, than even the first Space Marines or the Thunder Warriors. No human other than a Primarch or the Emperor himself has the abilities of a Custodes. I did like the book, and the depictions of the Custodes was one reason- it was quite enjoyable to see through the eyes of one of the Ten Thousand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 In all honesty, the Custodes have both the right and the ability to condescend to Legionares. Custodes are much more capable, as individuals, than even the first Space Marines or the Thunder Warriors. No human other than a Primarch or the Emperor himself has the abilities of a Custodes. I did like the book, and the depictions of the Custodes was one reason- it was quite enjoyable to see through the eyes of one of the Ten Thousand. I think a certain unarmoured WE might have something about that.lol But yeah generally it seems like custodes are a tier between Astartes and primarch ability wise with certain individuals being of a even higher tier (valdor) and ate able to go toe to toe with primarch. I liked that ra was able retain control even when possessed by a top tier demon prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I always have to smile whenever someone uses the word 'tier' to discribe some kind of power level and such, because in German 'tier' means 'animal' ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 What ever happened o those thunder warriors from outcast dead. He seemed pretty hardcore and smart as hell having reverse engineered geneseed. I'd like him to flee Terra when the traitors leave and setting up his own little kingdom in the eye being as he has built in resistance to chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 One thing that occurred to me regarding how the Emperor views the Primarchs - I find it quite significant that when He takes on the daemons, he attacks with apparitions of betrayed Legionaries and His murdered son. In retrospect, Aquillon and co are oddly human for Custodians. I wonder what Ra would have made of Aquillon's brotherhood with Argel Tal, aside from the whole traitor thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 One thing that occurred to me regarding how the Emperor views the Primarchs - I find it quite significant that when He takes on the daemons, he attacks with apparitions of betrayed Legionaries and His murdered son. In retrospect, Aquillon and co are oddly human for Custodians. I wonder what Ra would have made of Aquillon's brotherhood with Argel Tal, aside from the whole traitor thing Well a hugely important reason why the Custodes are kind of sour with the Astartes and Primarchs is that half of them made a power play because they didn't follow the Emperor's orders (do Great Crusade stuff while I wrap up the most important part ever back on Terra), then broke that most important bit trying to help (also by not following the Emperor's orders), guided daemons to Terra, and because of the civil war, drained resources away from them while they slogged for 5 years in the webway. They kind of don't trust the Legions to do anything but be fodder at this point. Aquillon and co were introduced 45 years before we get introduced to Dio; the crusade is going to plan, theres some hiccoughs but they're there to straighten out on the WB front and it appears they're trying their best not to fail the Emperor post monarchia so its all pretty easy going for them. Remember though, how fast Vendatha turns on Lorgar and friends when he starts doing proscribed things on Cadia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Very astute observations. Though I'd say once human sacrifice pops up, I'd have been amazed if Ven wasn't immediately hostile - especially given what the Emperor seems to have told the Custodians always ensues from faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Just finished the book and I must echo the sense of awe from everyone else. It is exceptional in writing style and lore reveals, it adds so many nuances to the nature of the Emperor and as strange as it seems... It does make the Horus Heresy look insignificant in comparison. Some of the key elements I enjoyed the most: - How the custodes are his only real companions and are philosophers as much as warriors - The insight on how his view of the Primarchs differes from how they view him as their father (Maybe save Dorn, who seems to understand better than most what he is and which dream he truly serves) - Magnus and how when he's seen from the point of view of the Imperials in the dungeon, he's a bloodied monster born of sacrifice when his own PoV in Thousand Sons was he was a radiant figure of pure ethereal will. That seems to tie in with some leaks of the book VII Inferno in which the "majestic" spires and pyramids of Prospero seem warped and monstrous when looked at from the Rout point of view. Was Prospero always a "hell" world and it's inhabitants just saw it as glory since they were immersed in the Warp? It does also explain why erasing all trace of them was Russ decision. - Arkhan and Zephon of course - The point of view of the little psyched girl and how the sisters feel about feeding the throne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 One of the really great things about how the book is written is that we are not given an absolute answer one way of the other how the Emperor regards or feel about anyone! not even the custodians We only hear him speak through everyone’s own perception. As stated in this thread He is everything to everyone. Even Ra questions if what the Emperor says and show him is the real deal or not. "When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?" This means that we always have to filter what is said through the listeners expectations: - All custodies are mistrusting of the Primarchs and space marines and blame them for all :cuss that is going down. In addition to their high regards of themselves as the Emperors companions it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” of everyone else as tools and of themselves as valuble assets and companions. - Land sees the Omnisia, logical, detatched and without emotions. He "hears" a divine monoton Emperor without any feelings for his creations. - In the prologue when the Emperor speaks to Magnus he "hears" his name, not “nr. 15” as for example Land "hears". If you dont aply the filter, big E is just sounding like uncaring ashole (and maby thats the thruth. Who knows ) Will readers take it at face value? Maybe! Here's the thing, though. The doubt is there in the novel, in enough detail that almost every reply, review, comment, and email I've seen either gets it, or otherwise understands the reasons for the way the Emperor refers to the primarchs as he does. Does this means he is the cuddly father figure to the Primarchs? Hell no, every description from their POV describe him as distant and aloof to them also. Does it means that he regards the Custodes as his closes companions and confidantes? We dont know but they regard them as such at least and that´s what we "hear" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uprising Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 I hate to ask, but I have been hearing a rumor that a certain custodies in the book shares a similar name to a certain custodies in the emperor text to speech series? I have the book arriving in the mail, but I am just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 From the abstract reader view, I see the nuance and layers to this book. From the view on the ground I would have nothing but questions about why the Emperor is making these decisions, if that clarifies my views better. It's worth keeping in mind that this was the veneer justification for the initial outbreak of disloyalty that spread through the warrior lodges (which ended up being gossip circles to foment discontent). The Legions were chafing at the pressure being exerted at them by the newly empowered Council of Terra (and all the damn remembrancers under foot, all upset because you happened to crush a few while in a hurry, gawd), and felt that the Emperor sold them out, the Mighty Heroes of Glorious Crusade, to a bunch of spineless human bureaucrats. Except for Guilliman, Ferrus, and maybe a few others, most of the Primarchs and Legions gave no thought to what their role would be once the galaxy is well and conquered. And who knows, maybe the Emperor's final plan would have involved killing all the Space Marines too, and sequestering his "children" into those 20 rooms he had built in the palace, those he didn't put down anyway. So we just betrayed him before that moldy carcass had a chance to do it to us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I hate to ask, but I have been hearing a rumor that a certain custodies in the book shares a similar name to a certain custodies in the emperor text to speech series? I have the book arriving in the mail, but I am just curious. I'm pretty brazen in my nods to the community (freem; choom, etc.) but I have no idea about this one, sorry! (I saw the first episode of that a long time ago - I didn't realise the characters even had names.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 'Little Kitten' will still be forever canon in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I finally got my copy (came back from a trip, book in a beaten down, squished and ruined box on my doorstep....) and ALREADY I have thoughts of a Custode army now. Thanks for nothing but more sidelong looks from my wife, ADB... Ok, well the book so far is good too. EDIT: Am I crazy or is the Impossible City a Realm of Chaos mention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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