Master of Mankind (expect spoilers)

[DarKnight]

So...Custodes are to SM as SM are to Guardsmen?

 

What y'all think?

 

 

 

Zephon’s pale eyes narrowed, his concentration absolute, taking in the ballet of violence unfolding before him. He had seen the warriors of the Ten Thousand fight before, albeit only in grainy pict footage. He had heard the countless unpoetic comparisons describing their uniqueness as the perfect exemplar of a process that became diluted and rushed to mass-produce the Legiones Astartes. Yet he had never seen them in battle against Space Marines. This warrior reaved through them – reaved through Zephon’s cousins from the rebellious Legions – cutting them down, butchering them the way Zephon himself had massacred his way across human and alien battlefields.

 

How easy, all of a sudden, to see how Constantin Valdor, the Captain-General of the Custodian Guard, was considered an equal of the primarchs themselves in matters of blade-work, when any Custodian could be as skilled as this.

 

 

 

The context is that

 

it's from Zeph's limited perspective and the Custodian in action is Ra, an elite tribune perhaps not far below Valdor himself...but still impressive no?

 

One guys opinion on a rumor. I'm willing to roll with his opinion that generally Custodes will mow through a line Astartes. (Also displayed in The First Heretic with Argel Tal and Aquillon) but to call them guardsmen? No. I'm confident that Sigismund and a few other Space Marine champions (not counting possessed marines) can at the very least in training cage situations can hold their own with a Custode. But who cares, I'm willing to accept the result of any fight/battle as long as it's presented in a way that makes sense to the story being told, not necessarily the lore.

[A D-B]

I am just shocked as to what comes next.

 

I mean...why even fight. The Emperor doesnt know what to do. Horus, and Chaos, has won.

 

I .. feel so lost.

 

I like that reaction because, well, that's the emotional response the characters involved have given the magnitude of what they just witnessed. But it comes with context outside their sphere:

 

 

 

 

"I mean...why even fight."

 

Because to 99.9% of the Imperium, this stuff is never known about and is irrelevant to them. It was the ultimate, but private and secret, war. 99.9% of the Imperium is fighting on just as before. Humanity's golden future will never come to be, sure, but the Imperium isn't falling tomorrow. No one outside the Emperor's inner circle even knows that humanity's golden future failed before it could kick off; that's what's tragic. The Webway Project was even a surprise to the primarchs, after all, and most don't even know about it. No one knows what's happening down there. 

 

"The Emperor doesnt know what to do."

 

No, the Emperor - who is precognitive and sees the many possible futures - now doesn't know what comes next. That's a big deal, but it's not the same as not knowing what to do next. He gives orders as to what to do next.

 

"Horus, and Chaos, has won."

 

Yes and no. There's nothing new there. The Webway Project always failed, and Chaos always 'won' that aspect. Humanity can never be free of Chaos without the Webway, because of how innately tied to Chaos the species is. (This is a setting, after all, where once you die your soul gets eaten by daemons in the warp.)  But Horus has nothing to do with that, and he's always lost the war, since the Emperor kicks his butt and the Traitor Legions cheese it to the Eye, like headless goobers.

 

 

 

 

So...Custodes are to SM as SM are to Guardsmen?

 

What y'all think?

 

 

 

Zephon’s pale eyes narrowed, his concentration absolute, taking in the ballet of violence unfolding before him. He had seen the warriors of the Ten Thousand fight before, albeit only in grainy pict footage. He had heard the countless unpoetic comparisons describing their uniqueness as the perfect exemplar of a process that became diluted and rushed to mass-produce the Legiones Astartes. Yet he had never seen them in battle against Space Marines. This warrior reaved through them – reaved through Zephon’s cousins from the rebellious Legions – cutting them down, butchering them the way Zephon himself had massacred his way across human and alien battlefields.

 

How easy, all of a sudden, to see how Constantin Valdor, the Captain-General of the Custodian Guard, was considered an equal of the primarchs themselves in matters of blade-work, when any Custodian could be as skilled as this.

 

 

 

The context is that

 

it's from Zeph's limited perspective and the Custodian in action is Ra, an elite tribune perhaps not far below Valdor himself...but still impressive no?

 

One guys opinion on a rumor. I'm willing to roll with his opinion that generally Custodes will mow through a line Astartes. (Also displayed in The First Heretic with Argel Tal and Aquillon) but to call them guardsmen? No. I'm confident that Sigismund and a few other Space Marine champions (not counting possessed marines) can at the very least in training cage situations can hold their own with a Custode. But who cares, I'm willing to accept the result of any fight/battle as long as it's presented in a way that makes sense to the story being told, not necessarily the lore.

 

 

Nuance, context, no set answer, etc. 

[Scribe]

I am just shocked as to what comes next.

 

I mean...why even fight. The Emperor doesnt know what to do. Horus, and Chaos, has won.

 

I .. feel so lost.

 

Exactly how it should be.

 

I need this book, I dont smoke, but I feel like once I've read it, I will need a smoke...

[Morovir]

Just finished the book.

 

 

The Mechanicum aspect of the book was great, from the politics on Terra to the integration of the new Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus forces into the Heresy era, such as the link between the Protectors and the Sicarians, and the comparisons between the Castellax and the Kastelans. The only confusion that I found is that, like in The Talon of Horus, the Thallax are described as robots, when they are stated in the Forgeworld books, as well as other Black Library books, such as Vengeful Spirit, to be extremely augmented humans. Could we please have clarification on what they actually are?

 

[Joeyray]

 

 

After 72 hours I'm feeling like a Downfall Hitler rant would be kind of cool coming from the Emperor talking about how he should've smothered the Primarchs in their cradles like Hitler talked about liquidating the General Officers. That movie is funny for meme's but damn if it isn't terrifying originally.

"My liege the Iron Warriors continue to dismantle the walls, there are reports that the Dies Irea continues to advance without halting...."

"Not to worry the II and XI will counterattack and drive these traitors back."

"My lord....."

"The II and XI haven't existed in decades..."

"Everyone out the throne room except Dorn, Valdor and Malcador......."

This real?

 

Only in my head sadly brother!

[Marshal Rohr]

They are extremely augmented humans.

[simison]

I am just shocked as to what comes next.

 

I mean...why even fight. The Emperor doesnt know what to do. Horus, and Chaos, has won.

 

I .. feel so lost.

 

Ditto what AD-B said. Chaos wins the Webway Campaign but lose the civil war. 

[Scribe]

 

 

I am just shocked as to what comes next.

 

I mean...why even fight. The Emperor doesnt know what to do. Horus, and Chaos, has won.

 

I .. feel so lost.

Ditto what AD-B said. Chaos wins the Webway Campaign but lose the civil war.

Which, quite obviously, should have been known anyway. :p

[Legatus]

I found this little bit interesting:

 

 

Dorn’s jaw tightened. ‘Listen to yourself, Diocletian. Hear the words you are speaking and the course
you advocate.’
‘Necessity overcomes morality’, Kaeria’s hands signed in the air before her breastplate. ‘Never without
regret. Never without shame. Yet even immoral victory must outweigh moral defeat. The victor will
have a chance to atone if conscience demands. The vanquished lose any such opportunity.’
‘You quote my own brother at me?’ Dorn narrowed his gaze. ‘Roboute is not here, Oblivion Knight.
Would that he were. In his absence, I am Lord Commander of the Imperium.’

 

 

(It's not really a "spoiler", but perhaps some people don't like reading passages before getting their hand on the book.)

 

Dorn seems to see it as a matter of course that Guilliman would have been Lord Commander if he had been available. A bit surprising considering some of the earlier descriptions of Dorn in the series (how only he has the "spark of brilliance"), but certainly in line with his humble mindset. In the earlier edition descriptions of Dorn (specifically the Index Astartes article) he had never asked for or expected any special honours and was content doing what was expected of him.

 

The way my favourite Legion and Primarch have been treated in the series thus far I take every little nugget I can get.

[Marshal Rohr]

I found this little bit interesting:

 

 

Dorn’s jaw tightened. ‘Listen to yourself, Diocletian. Hear the words you are speaking and the course

you advocate.’

‘Necessity overcomes morality’, Kaeria’s hands signed in the air before her breastplate. ‘Never without

regret. Never without shame. Yet even immoral victory must outweigh moral defeat. The victor will

have a chance to atone if conscience demands. The vanquished lose any such opportunity.’

‘You quote my own brother at me?’ Dorn narrowed his gaze. ‘Roboute is not here, Oblivion Knight.

Would that he were. In his absence, I am Lord Commander of the Imperium.’

 

 

(It's not really a "spoiler", but perhaps some people don't like reading passages before getting their hand on the book.)

 

Dorn seems to see it as a matter of course that Guilliman would have been Lord Commander if he had been available. A bit surprising considering some of the earlier descriptions of Dorn in the series (how only he has the "spark of brilliance"), but certainly in line with his humble mindset. In the earlier edition descriptions of Dorn (specifically the Index Astartes article) he had never asked for or expected any special honours and was content doing what was expected of him.

 

The way my favourite Legion and Primarch have been treated in the series thus far I take every little nugget I can get.

You can imagine how much I liked that little remark.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Can you pick this up in the book stores or is it only currently available via BL ?

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

 

I am just shocked as to what comes next.

 

I mean...why even fight. The Emperor doesnt know what to do. Horus, and Chaos, has won.

 

I .. feel so lost.

Ditto what AD-B said. Chaos wins the Webway Campaign but lose the civil war.

Horus dies, but Chaos does not lose the Civil War.

 

As per the Acuity, Horus being slain damns the Imperium to a slow death.

 

I mean we all know this, but...but it is so gutwrenching to read the details and watch it unfold before you.

 

I was sort of hoping there would be some seed of hope, somewhere....but all is dust :p

[Marshal Rohr]

Chaos calls Horus the Sacrificed King, so it looks like he wasn't ever meant to win the war.

[simison]

I am just shocked as to what comes next.

I mean...why even fight. The Emperor doesnt know what to do. Horus, and Chaos, has won.

I .. feel so lost.

Ditto what AD-B said. Chaos wins the Webway Campaign but lose the civil war.

Horus dies, but Chaos does not lose the Civil War.

As per the Acuity, Horus being slain damns the Imperium to a slow death.

I mean we all know this, but...but it is so gutwrenching to read the details and watch it unfold before you.

I was sort of hoping there would be some seed of hope, somewhere....but all is dust

The Acuity is of questionable worth. Eldrad, at the very least, believes there was another option on the table and disagreed with the Cabal.

Even then, the Imperium may be doomed, but Humanity may endure.

Or, maybe everyone will be eaten by Tyranids.

There are so many different paths 40k can take and so much evidence behind each path, that I'd caution against assuming that one faction has already achieved victory.

[Scribe]

Seed of hope...you guys slay me! :D

 

Go up to that edit ADB put in from the 'former in the IP know' person.

 

Everyone loses, its the point.

[Kelborn]

In the end, Malals laughter will be the only thing remaining. . .

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In the end it just begins again .

[DuskRaider]

In the end, Malals laughter will be the only thing remaining. . .

Gods, I wish this were so...

[Augustus]

But Horus has nothing to do with that, and he's always lost the war, since the Emperor kicks his butt and the Traitor Legions cheese it to the Eye, like headless goobers.

 

 

Mr. D-Bowden, this is GOLD. GOLD, Jerry! GOLD!!!

[DarKnight]

I found this little bit interesting:

 

 

Dorn’s jaw tightened. ‘Listen to yourself, Diocletian. Hear the words you are speaking and the course

you advocate.’

‘Necessity overcomes morality’, Kaeria’s hands signed in the air before her breastplate. ‘Never without

regret. Never without shame. Yet even immoral victory must outweigh moral defeat. The victor will

have a chance to atone if conscience demands. The vanquished lose any such opportunity.’

‘You quote my own brother at me?’ Dorn narrowed his gaze. ‘Roboute is not here, Oblivion Knight.

Would that he were. In his absence, I am Lord Commander of the Imperium.’

 

 

(It's not really a "spoiler", but perhaps some people don't like reading passages before getting their hand on the book.)

 

Dorn seems to see it as a matter of course that Guilliman would have been Lord Commander if he had been available. A bit surprising considering some of the earlier descriptions of Dorn in the series (how only he has the "spark of brilliance"), but certainly in line with his humble mindset. In the earlier edition descriptions of Dorn (specifically the Index Astartes article) he had never asked for or expected any special honours and was content doing what was expected of him.

 

The way my favourite Legion and Primarch have been treated in the series thus far I take every little nugget I can get.

I saw that quote as a sideways brotherly shot at Guilliman since he's perceived by his bros to be more interested in administrating Ultramar than anything else. I think Rogal respects Rouboute but he probably resents his words being used against him while HE does what he perceives to be what's most important.

[Phatsquirre1]

God-Emperor, what an amazing book, for both its characters and story.

Land, Zephon, even Diocletus are some of my favorite characters. It would have been to easy to make the Custodes a goody-two-shoes super-duper Space Marine, but this book really gave them some identity, and fleshed out what was actually a pretty boring part of the lore (at least in my opinion). For example, I love The Emperor's betrayal of Ra at the end. I understand it. I get why it happened. But I hate it. (and want to hear more about Ra's journey. How did the Daemon end up in a sword?)

Even with its contentious talk about relationships, I think the way the Primarchs were handled was great too. They almost had to think of him as a Father, after all, he did create them. But the reverse doesn't necessarily have to be true, and I think we may have seen that earlier on a smaller scale. For example, the Iron Warriors accepted and honored Perturabo as their "father", while Mr. Bitter and Angry himself could care less how/when they died, so long as they did what he asked. He valued them, but only to the extent that they were tools.

Plus, was Big E planning for the next "Primarchs" once these were used up? The next "astartes"? It seems so ruthless, but when humanity is at stake, is it that big of a deal? (Although maybe that's because I play IW. Perty never loved me either. )

Also, that ending makes me really happy as to where my current army is headed, even if they have no idea what's really going on.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Of course it's a big deal.

[DarKnight]

I hope AD-B gets a chance to flesh it out (seriously, who can we email) in a future HH novel if he is so inclined, but I'm very interested in the potential similarities between culture/religion on Baal & the Holy Roman Empire. Just the couple sentences about killing mutants on Secundus & how ever after more than a century as an Astartes, free flowing water still impressed Zephon, was more than enough to pique my interest.

[Phatsquirre1]

Of course it's a big deal.

Stupid question, I guess... just curious to see what would've come next. What would next-tier Primarchs even look like? Would they even be Primarchs per se?

Guess I'll never know now.

[b1soul]

 

So...Custodes are to SM as SM are to Guardsmen?

What y'all think?

 

 

Zephon’s pale eyes narrowed, his concentration absolute, taking in the ballet of violence unfolding before him. He had seen the warriors of the Ten Thousand fight before, albeit only in grainy pict footage. He had heard the countless unpoetic comparisons describing their uniqueness as the perfect exemplar of a process that became diluted and rushed to mass-produce the Legiones Astartes. Yet he had never seen them in battle against Space Marines. This warrior reaved through them – reaved through Zephon’s cousins from the rebellious Legions – cutting them down, butchering them the way Zephon himself had massacred his way across human and alien battlefields.

How easy, all of a sudden, to see how Constantin Valdor, the Captain-General of the Custodian Guard, was considered an equal of the primarchs themselves in matters of blade-work, when any Custodian could be as skilled as this.

 

 

The context is that

 

it's from Zeph's limited perspective and the Custodian in action is Ra, an elite tribune perhaps not far below Valdor himself...but still impressive no?

 

 

One guys opinion on a rumor.

Well, one guy's limited opinion based on his observation

 

I think it's safe to say we've come a long way from Dan's Blood Games

 

 

 

" Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes."