Master of Mankind (expect spoilers)

[bluntblade]

It's very rare indeed to see any deviation from the Asskicking = Authority Axiom when it comes to the trans/posthumans of the 40K universe, after all.

[b1soul]

It has always struck as odd that high ranking SM are typically great blade wielders

 

I think the great fighters are typically captains or above...but the greatest fighter isn't always the highest ranking

[bluntblade]

It has always struck as odd that high ranking SM are typically great blade wielders

I think the great fighters are typically captains or above...but the greatest fighter isn't always the highest ranking

It's alright if they're also shown to be good commanders, but that is frequently forgotten.

[RandomMarine]

One question - is there any indication of how far the project has to go before Magnus rear-ends it?

As far as I could tell the human part was nearly complete and they had taken a nexus similar to comoragh* and were in the process of clearing the passages off that nexus the only one cleared to the exit point was the passage to mars

[Sandlemad]

 

why the first murder wasn't a bloodthirster/ khorne deamon prince?

 

I wanted to see more of Malcador

 

 

 

I found this odd as well - kinda thought it would turn out to be

this giant bloodthirster - but it's mentioned, saying that Drach'nyen is "ndivided, its genesis was in a song sung by all four Choirs." Can't find it now but I think there was a line about how the very act of the first human murder had shades of the four gods' emotional spheres. Wouldn't want something so important tied to just one god.

 

 

Actually that's one of the things that doesn't seem to have been picked up for conversation by the community about MoM. It's got a pretty clearly undivided daemon of some importance with a good reason for it being so. I feel like we've seen this sort of thing before, even recently with the generic warpspawn that snaps at people's heels in other chaos books, but the question of how much of a 'thing' chaos undivided is is heavily debated so, uh, there we go.

[Marshal Rohr]

Space marine captains also being good fighters is an inheiritance of the technobarbarian origins of the legions. It mentions this in Betrayal. It was the emperor who basically forged all the best parts of the technobarbarians with the military doctrines of antiquity to make them so effective.

[Xin Ceithan]

I finished this over this weekend. And oh, my! I am still torn if I like this for all the clever ideas on the Warp, the Webway, the Emperor or those utter and unashamed fanboyishness moments.

 

Below this point the spoilers lurk, so ....

 

Love how this attempts to convey the sheer scope of the Emperor in both his vision and his work and how Horus little rebellion is a sideshow in the grand scale of things.

 

For a book that ADB has himself stated to be intended to not give objective answers, he chucked in an awful lot of hints and possibilities here:

How the Emperor seems to see the Primarchs as Weapons and tools. Not as "Sons". The Pinocchio reference is neat but the distance is quite well transferred in him never using their names but their numbers. He doesn't look after Angron, he is inspecting "the Twelfth ".

The distrust the Imperium puts in the Legions after the rebellion.

How little the Imperium as a whole (and we as readers) understand the bigger picture from the Emperor's point of view. And how incapable we are at grasping that, that we are forced to view this from all those characters and their subjective views to even get a few impressions.

And where we still can not be sure if we are not simply shown the things we want to see or need to see to fit in the big picture of his plans.

 

The stuff on warp and how it and humanity relate to each other are well developed, too.

I love the whole First Murder, End of Empires set up. How that act and the emotions around it bring it about in the Warp and shape it's being. Of course it is not just a Bloodthirster. It is Murder, not slaughter. Not JUST slaughter. And how it is unaligned but how unaligned is not a neutral, fifth additional Warp power. The First Murder is bloodshed and thus Khorne. AND it is also death and despair and ruination and thus Nurgle. AND it is pain and novelty and cruelty and pushing beyond what has been before, so it is Slaanesh. AND it used sit and treachery and change, thus it is Tzeentch. Unaligned is not to whom it may concern it is recognition by all the powers.

And when it screams it's name, it's true name...and how it brings down the Emperor...and how he seals it away, sends it away because it is the End of Empires.....Wow. This is setting up the killing blow, ten thousand years ahead. Or before. The First Murder, destined to end the Imperium. Now I am really reallly hyped on old Ezekiel getting his claws on that thing!

 

I'm already ranting, so I keep the rest short. Including Arkhan Land - brilliant. Inside look at unhealthy Mechanicum - check. Why bother with Space Marines when you have Thunder Warriors? Yup, in here. Why hasn' t the Emperor seen this from miles/years ago? Covered.

 

And it has Chooooooom. Bloody, official Choooom!

 

Personal bonus is the psybermonkey. APE Sapien. Really?! They let you get away with that?!

[Balthamal]

 

I finished MoM a few hours ago, I feel like I will have to re-read it to get everything but overall I was an awesome book.

 

Two things that I wasn't a huge fan

 

 

why the first murder wasn't a bloodthirster/ khorne deamon prince?

 

I wanted to see more of Malcador

 

 

on the whole Ra carving through space marines/ are custodes to astartes what astartes are to guard, isn't Ra one of the top Custodes?  It sounded like he was #2 or 3 of all the custodes which were sent into the webway.  While the number of custodes that were sent into the webway was never given it seemed significant, like in the thousands.  Even if it was only 1000, the #3 guy of that would put him in the top 30 or the top 0.3%.  He isn't exactly a "standard" custodes.  Even top tier space marines can carve through lots of their own kind.

 

 

 

 

 

Whilst originally I thought Drach'nyen would have been a daemon of Khorne I've since come to the conclusion that it a truly Undivided force within the Warp. I mean you've obviously got the rage/anger component laid down but there's more nuance to it as well. You have motive/planning - there's a difference between killing someone and murdering them - the premeditation, the intent occur before the deed itself not in the heat of the moment which lends something of Tzeentch to the whole mix as well. The same applies to Nurgle with the whole mortality angle from the victim, that fear of dying. And yes even though Slaanesh isn't born for many thousands of years afterwards there's a spark in it's genesis from the pleasure the killer would take from the kill as well.

 

There's a great little passage about the daemons of other choirs all giving way before it, all subtly a part of it yet remaining distinct and undoubtedly inferior. I think if it wasn't formed from the various aspects of the other Gods then it itself would have been one in it's own right - it's certainly powerful enough for it

 

[b1soul]

I like that Drach is not Bloodthirster...in all honesty, I prefer Abnett-style, hyper-diverse Chaos to fixed Greater Daemon forms

[Black Cohort]

 

 

 

I finished MoM a few hours ago, I feel like I will have to re-read it to get everything but overall I was an awesome book.

 

Two things that I wasn't a huge fan

 

 

why the first murder wasn't a bloodthirster/ khorne deamon prince?

 

I wanted to see more of Malcador

 

 

on the whole Ra carving through space marines/ are custodes to astartes what astartes are to guard, isn't Ra one of the top Custodes? It sounded like he was #2 or 3 of all the custodes which were sent into the webway. While the number of custodes that were sent into the webway was never given it seemed significant, like in the thousands. Even if it was only 1000, the #3 guy of that would put him in the top 30 or the top 0.3%. He isn't exactly a "standard" custodes. Even top tier space marines can carve through lots of their own kind.

 

 

 

 

Whilst originally I thought Drach'nyen would have been a daemon of Khorne I've since come to the conclusion that it a truly Undivided force within the Warp. I mean you've obviously got the rage/anger component laid down but there's more nuance to it as well. You have motive/planning - there's a difference between killing someone and murdering them - the premeditation, the intent occur before the deed itself not in the heat of the moment which lends something of Tzeentch to the whole mix as well. The same applies to Nurgle with the whole mortality angle from the victim, that fear of dying. And yes even though Slaanesh isn't born for many thousands of years afterwards there's a spark in it's genesis from the pleasure the killer would take from the kill as well.

 

There's a great little passage about the daemons of other choirs all giving way before it, all subtly a part of it yet remaining distinct and undoubtedly inferior. I think if it wasn't formed from the various aspects of the other Gods then it itself would have been one in it's own right - it's certainly powerful enough for it

 

wouldn't that make the vast majority of daemons formed by any major event unaligned? I agree that it made a better story than being a bloodthirster but it seems to go against the recent trend of chaos not having a strong unaligned component.

 

That being said it is a relatively minor complaint, overall the book was awesome.

 

Also from what I could tell it wasn't covered how the end of empires ends up as a daemon blade. It is pulled out of the emperor as a sword, but then melds with Ra.

 

[Balthamal]

 

 

 

I finished MoM a few hours ago, I feel like I will have to re-read it to get everything but overall I was an awesome book.

 

Two things that I wasn't a huge fan

 

 

why the first murder wasn't a bloodthirster/ khorne deamon prince?

 

I wanted to see more of Malcador

 

 

on the whole Ra carving through space marines/ are custodes to astartes what astartes are to guard, isn't Ra one of the top Custodes? It sounded like he was #2 or 3 of all the custodes which were sent into the webway. While the number of custodes that were sent into the webway was never given it seemed significant, like in the thousands. Even if it was only 1000, the #3 guy of that would put him in the top 30 or the top 0.3%. He isn't exactly a "standard" custodes. Even top tier space marines can carve through lots of their own kind.

 

 

 

 

Whilst originally I thought Drach'nyen would have been a daemon of Khorne I've since come to the conclusion that it a truly Undivided force within the Warp. I mean you've obviously got the rage/anger component laid down but there's more nuance to it as well. You have motive/planning - there's a difference between killing someone and murdering them - the premeditation, the intent occur before the deed itself not in the heat of the moment which lends something of Tzeentch to the whole mix as well. The same applies to Nurgle with the whole mortality angle from the victim, that fear of dying. And yes even though Slaanesh isn't born for many thousands of years afterwards there's a spark in it's genesis from the pleasure the killer would take from the kill as well.

 

There's a great little passage about the daemons of other choirs all giving way before it, all subtly a part of it yet remaining distinct and undoubtedly inferior. I think if it wasn't formed from the various aspects of the other Gods then it itself would have been one in it's own right - it's certainly powerful enough for it

 

wouldn't that make the vast majority of daemons formed by any major event unaligned? I agree that it made a better story than being a bloodthirster but it seems to go against the recent trend of chaos not having a strong unaligned component.

 

That being said it is a relatively minor complaint, overall the book was awesome.

 

Also from what I could tell it wasn't covered how the end of empires ends up as a daemon blade. It is pulled out of the emperor as a sword, but then melds with Ra.

 

 

 

 

 

Quite possibly. Although with it being the very first of it's kind you could make the argument it's genesis is totally unique whilst other actions that give birth to the Neverborn are simply reflections derived from the "god" that provided the overwhelming emotion during the act. It's impossible to replicate something that primal that carries so much nuance. That's my interpretation at least, no doubt there's plenty more on the matter.

 

As for Drach'nyen, the way I'm reading it, the Daemon impaled the Emperor, then the Emperor exerted some sort of influence to transmute the daemon into a blade which he then threw at Ra enabling the daemon to enter his flesh fully.

 

It's something that will almost certainly see more of the light of day when the Black Legion is released seeing as that is concerned with Abaddon taking possession of the blade Drach'nyen

 

[Mango Polo]

I like that Drach is not Bloodthirster...in all honesty, I prefer Abnett-style, hyper-diverse Chaos to fixed Greater Daemon forms

Agreed. It simply is whatever it must be in order to fulfill its title. It felt more Chaos than yet another Ye Olden Bloodthirster of Khorneth.

[Marshal Rohr]

Chaos daemons being god specific is marketing for the models so a kid can pick up MoM and say 'hey, this bad guys a blood thirster and I can build one just like it!' Or 'I want some plaguebearers for my custodes to fight' which is why the art work was so specific even without ABD being specific (because he likes cool stuff and not marketing).

[Huggtand]

Wait, does the Emperor actually say anything?

Ra's vision meetings with the Emperor has me questioning that right now.

When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?

That is huge to me. Imagine if his message was "Bring Leman Russ to me"

A human or Marine could hear "Bring my Son, the Lord of War and Winter to me"

A Custude could hear "A Primach approaches"

An Ad Mech would hear "My 6th creation approaches"

All are technically correct, and all hear the message formed to be best understood by their perception of things.

Or maybe Im crazy

This!

We only hear the Emperor through other people and this adds so much depth the second read through

All custodies are mistrusting of the Primarchs and space marines in addition to their high regards of themselves so it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” as he does. Which at face value sound like the Emperor is just an ashole who does not care. I just love the ambiguity ADB has put in so MoM is still an enigma.

Case in point; in the prologue when E speaks to Magnus he hears his name, not “nr. 15”. Missed that the first time

Great work!!

[Marshal Rohr]

There isn't any ambiguity in the story about whether the Emperor thinks of the Primarchs as Sons and who is getting blamed for the Heresy even when they are dying in droves to stop the traitors. The ambiguity is whether or not the Emperor was going to kill the Primarchs eventually, like he did the Thunder Warriors, not that he viewed them as creations and their legions are machines instead men fighting his wars. 

[Black Cohort]

There isn't any ambiguity in the story about whether the Emperor thinks of the Primarchs as Sons and who is getting blamed for the Heresy even when they are dying in droves to stop the traitors. The ambiguity is whether or not the Emperor was going to kill the Primarchs eventually, like he did the Thunder Warriors, not that he viewed them as creations and their legions are machines instead men fighting his wars.

It was pretty clear to me that the Emperor doesn't actually speak most of the time, just psychicly projects his thoughts to the person and that person hears the version of the words they want to hear. So Land hears him as a scientific genius/Omnissiah, where an astartes would hear the Emperor use words that mean the same thing but show more care.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

There isn't any ambiguity in the story about whether the Emperor thinks of the Primarchs as Sons and who is getting blamed for the Heresy even when they are dying in droves to stop the traitors. The ambiguity is whether or not the Emperor was going to kill the Primarchs eventually, like he did the Thunder Warriors, not that he viewed them as creations and their legions are machines instead men fighting his wars.

It was pretty clear to me that the Emperor doesn't actually speak most of the time, just psychicly projects his thoughts to the person and that person hears the version of the words they want to hear. So Land hears him as a scientific genius/Omnissiah, where an astartes would hear the Emperor use words that mean the same thing but show more care.

 

 

Right, and Im not disputing that, but what ADB and others have said is the Emperor is much more focused on that island than he is about the oarmen actually enabling his vision. The negative reactions aren't coming from the way people perceive the Emperor in the setting, its that years and years of lore in Index Astartes, Codexes, and early Heresy novels was taken to mean X (by almost everyone, I have yet to see anyone say 'I always thought the Emperor considered the Primarchs science projects) but the actual reality of the setting was Y, and X was a facade. 

[Huggtand]

 

 

There isn't any ambiguity in the story about whether the Emperor thinks of the Primarchs as Sons and who is getting blamed for the Heresy even when they are dying in droves to stop the traitors. The ambiguity is whether or not the Emperor was going to kill the Primarchs eventually, like he did the Thunder Warriors, not that he viewed them as creations and their legions are machines instead men fighting his wars.

It was pretty clear to me that the Emperor doesn't actually speak most of the time, just psychicly projects his thoughts to the person and that person hears the version of the words they want to hear. So Land hears him as a scientific genius/Omnissiah, where an astartes would hear the Emperor use words that mean the same thing but show more care.

 

 

Right, and Im not disputing that, but what ADB and others have said is the Emperor is much more focused on that island than he is about the oarmen actually enabling his vision. The negative reactions aren't coming from the way people perceive the Emperor in the setting, its that years and years of lore in Index Astartes, Codexes, and early Heresy novels was taken to mean X (by almost everyone, I have yet to see anyone say 'I always thought the Emperor considered the Primarchs science projects) but the actual reality of the setting was Y, and X was a facade. 

 

 

Of course he is, and I don’t think that anybody disagrees that he thinks that everybody is tools to that goal. The ambiguity is that we actually don’t know what he feels for his tools (if anything) since his musings always are through someone else’s point of view.

[Marshal Rohr]

But you have the author and his editor saying the Emperor isnt a nice guy and that is why everyone thinks they've changed stuff. Its the problem with BL's and GW as a whole's notorious opacity with their 'not everything is as it seems' schtick. You have people read a novel or a codex and say, 'I like these guys because the Emperor liked them, their Primarch was one of his favorite sons, fought alongside them all the time (Blood Angels Codex), and Sanguinius even gave his life for his father', and then build an army of them, and several years down the road Master of Mankind comes out and that guy sees Zephon treated like by the Custodians and the Emperor didnt love Sanguinius like a son who shared many of his traits (like every description of him in the series to date) and now Sanguinius' sacrifice is much cheaper. That guy isnt going to be happy and he's rightfully upset he spent cash to build an army that no longer lines up with what made him choose the army in the first place.

[Huggtand]

I can see your point and I totally agree that MoM is a kind shift from the rest of the lore we have had previously even if it is hinted in previus books that the Emperor is not a nice guy. He has total focus to reach his end goal for mankind at large and everything is an end to that. Combine that with the fact that he is so above mankind in powers and knowledge and it’s not hard to see him without feelings. I think he is very much like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen in that regard.

 

But that do not hinder that he has some affection for his creations since he implies that he is fond of his custodians (if not that also is an interpretation from the custodians). It’s like a hunter and his dogs. They are his tools; he is fond of them but if one dies getting that bear down he’s not going to cry over it. It did its duty what it was breed for and can be rememberd fondly for that.

 

I always think of Crom when I think of big E:
“He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?”

[helterskelter]

Just put the book down at chapter 9 so to talk of my experience so far

 

 

when the emperor has his second moment with Ra, telling the lesson of the priest, would this same lesson, taking all of the minutes it did in real time, not have been significantly more effective and efficient at telling magnus and Lorgar off? I mean really come on, you had the perfect lesson sat right there in your memory, and couldn't have spent 10 whole minutes over 2 conversations to have at least tried to impart it. But no tell it to your custodes that didn't really need to know either way.

Also, arkhan land is sassy. It's both hilarious and awesome. And I love the monkey and the disagreement over the tail

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe he did tell Lorgar and Magnus. Thats an unknown, unknown as old Rummy would say. 

[helterskelter]

But it's a really easy concept to grasp. So he can't have :p but then we wouldn't be up to book 41.

Also not knocking the book, I've had to put it down so I can actually sleep, it's fantastic, I just found that one bit a wee smidge infuriating

[Marshal Rohr]

The real issue, maybe ADB thought of it, maybe its unintended, If the Emperor can see faith like that... what the :cuss did Lorgar look like? He saw him in person for the first time since Monarchia at Ullanor. If the priest has creepy chaos fairies floating around him, Lorgar would've had gigantic pterodactyls wearing Jersey's with each of the four gods symbols on them sitting on his shoulders the whole time. 

[depthcharge12]

So kind of a Talon of Horus aside - Abaddon picks up the Talon and both Lhorvine and Khayon go bonkers because one smells Sanguinius/Emps Vitae on it and the other is psychically overwhelmed from who has been killed with it.

 

So how will marine and psyker dudebros react when Drach is waved around by Abby with the Emps blood on it? (Well I guess he doesn't have it on him anymore because he's in another place *spoilers*) but there is always twombley wombley timey-wimey daemon stuff that could have the same effect.

 

Like just waving around Drach would make someone like Ahriman have a brain hemorrhage.