Master of Mankind (expect spoilers)

[jacqualine47]

The real issue, maybe ADB thought of it, maybe its unintended, If the Emperor can see faith like that... what the did Lorgar look like? He saw him in person for the first time since Monarchia at Ullanor. If the priest has creepy chaos fairies floating around him, Lorgar would've had gigantic pterodactyls wearing Jersey's with each of the four gods symbols on them sitting on his shoulders the whole time.

Most likely Lorgar - being the High Priest of Chaos and all - was shielded by the Four to keep the Anathema in the dark. Random priest from E's memory didn't warrant that sort of power expenditure on the part of the Four, but Lorgar did.

[bluntblade]

I like that Drach is not Bloodthirster...in all honesty, I prefer Abnett-style, hyper-diverse Chaos to fixed Greater Daemon forms

Judging by Ingethel and the Ragged Knight, AD-B feels much the same.

[Phatsquirre1]

The real issue, maybe ADB thought of it, maybe its unintended, If the Emperor can see faith like that... what the did Lorgar look like? He saw him in person for the first time since Monarchia at Ullanor. If the priest has creepy chaos fairies floating around him, Lorgar would've had gigantic pterodactyls wearing Jersey's with each of the four gods symbols on them sitting on his shoulders the whole time.

He murdered the Priest, who was kneeling in front of the Emps during his pacification of Terra, while Lorgar essentially disappeared for decades after Monarchia and was very likely too wrapped up in the Webway project to notice. He's absurdly powerful, and cognizant of a lot, but even he has his limits- after all, he could't see Horus' betrayal, which is easily a much larger concern.

And I love the monkey and the disagreement over the tail

Easily one of the best parts of the book.

[b1soul]

I like some ambiguity...too much becomes a bit silly

 

The Emp projects his thoughts. The nuances of his message is molded by the target's interpretation. I like that idea a lot. That works for me.

[A D-B]

So kind of a Talon of Horus aside - Abaddon picks up the Talon and both Lhorvine and Khayon go bonkers because one smells Sanguinius/Emps Vitae on it and the other is psychically overwhelmed from who has been killed with it.

 

So how will marine and psyker dudebros react when Drach is waved around by Abby with the Emps blood on it? (Well I guess he doesn't have it on him anymore because he's in another place *spoilers*) but there is always twombley wombley timey-wimey daemon stuff that could have the same effect.

 

Like just waving around Drach would make someone like Ahriman have a brain hemorrhage.

 

In one of the short stories (I want to say... from 2014? I think?), Khayon mentions struggling to be in the same room as Abaddon when he's carrying Drach'nyen. And it's not a huge spoiler to say that he doesn't think Drach'nyen is an A+ addition to the team.

 

But then, something I've not seen picked up on much (and this is surely down to me just not explaining it well, though I thought I'd covered it in a combination of The Talon of Horus and various repetitive forum/blog posts, as well as trusting in people's setting knowledge in general) is that the entire concept of Abaddon wielding Drach'nyen is an infinite loop, in a sense.

 

1. Abaddon refuses to let Chaos overwhelm him and exalt him, because then he'd no longer be himself. He's fighting for the Legions - the angels returning to Heaven and rebelling against God - he's not fighting not for Chaos.

2. Abaddon carries Drach'nyen, which believes it is destined to kill the Emperor.

3. Chaos won't let Abaddon win (unless he devotes himself to them) because a win for Abaddon isn't the same as a win for Chaos.

4. Back to 1.

 

It's the ultimate infinite loop of the setting, really. You have the thematic Antichrist of 40K. You have the "Midnight" of the "Two minutes to midnight" fame, that we know is fated to happen - intellectually, if not in reality, which is a key qualification. And then you have the one aspect that we know will keep the cycle continually looping: Chaos's best shot is Abaddon, and Abaddon's best shot is Chaos, but they can never truly align. Abaddon's story is of the thwarted villain, not the victorious antihero. That's kinda implied in that whole "thematic Antichrist" and "The setting's primary bad guy" stuff. 

 

When you analyse and talk about this stuff endlessly for work, then write about it for work, then in your free time as well, spread across countless blogs, social media posts, forums, and emails, it's difficult to pin down exactly what people have read, let alone what they know from their own readings of the lore, let alone what they actually perceive. That's why the "ADB is changing stuff and is now saying Chaos will win" accusation is so strange in some ways - albeit understandable in others. Ultimately, I'm not saying anything new. Chaos "will" (you could argue, already has) in terms of humanity not being able to split from it and dooming humanity to the cycle of eternal war, and as TMoM shows, the Imperium of 40K takes its first step into the darkness. Chaos winning is the result we can intellectually project or point to right now, but that obviously we'll never see happen in any "absolute" sense.

 

The strangest thing, of course is that I've seen people who have literally said the Imperium wouldn't survive the tyranids or that the Imperium is doomed once the necrons all wake up now saying it's bad that I said the Imperium wouldn't survive Chaos. Go figure.

[Marshal Rohr]

Breaking News: ADB hates Chaos. Says Imperium wins. Click for more.

[A D-B]

Breaking News: ADB hates Chaos. Says Imperium wins. Click for more.

 

mate dude i keep clicking but.......?

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm just predicting the topic of Heresy general in the morning :D.

[A D-B]

I'm just predicting the topic of Heresy general in the morning .

dead link m8

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Haha !!!

[Ficinus]

Regarding the First Murder being a demon of Chaos Undivided, wouldn't it have to be a demon without an origin in the four gods since it predates (and foreshadows) them?  Nurgle was born in the plague (either the Black Death or Justinian's plague), Khorne was born during the Mongol invasions, Tzeentch was born in the Renaissance, and Slaanesh was born during the Fall of the Eldar.  Presumably the First Murder predates all of those events, meaning it couldn't be a demon of any particular god.

 

Or is that all old fluff, about the origins of the three non-Slaanesh gods?

[Balthamal]

Regarding the First Murder being a demon of Chaos Undivided, wouldn't it have to be a demon without an origin in the four gods since it predates (and foreshadows) them?  Nurgle was born in the plague (either the Black Death or Justinian's plague), Khorne was born during the Mongol invasions, Tzeentch was born in the Renaissance, and Slaanesh was born during the Fall of the Eldar.  Presumably the First Murder predates all of those events, meaning it couldn't be a demon of any particular god.

 

Or is that all old fluff, about the origins of the three non-Slaanesh gods?

 

I confess I hadn't read any of that previously but given the way the Warp is represented now I think it safe to say that the three "Gods" came into being well before those events took place. Khorne certainly would have predated even the First Murder.

[Skalpynock]

On a minor note, have I read correctly that Zephon is wearing both Mk III and a jump pack?

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, where is the idea you can't wear Mark three and a jump pack coming from?

[Skalpynock]

Yeah, where is the idea you can't wear Mark three and a jump pack coming from?

I don't know, but I disregarded it entirely, now there is fluff to destroy this misconception.

[Sandlemad]

Yeah, where is the idea you can't wear Mark three and a jump pack coming from?

 

I think it came from a throwaway comment by FW when they were asked why they hadn't made a jump pack equipped MkIII squad.

 

It's one of those things that has been blown up by the community from 'not ideal due to the armour's weight' into 'fluff-breaking/only permissible via rule of cool'. Like such classics as 'Night Lords have to use raptors' or 'followers of Khorne only use CC weapons'.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is most likely an exception to the rule.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

Yeah, where is the idea you can't wear Mark three and a jump pack coming from?

I don't know, but I disregarded it entirely, now there is fluff to destroy this misconception.

Flame wars are coming, Jon Snow.

[Karthak]

 

In one of the short stories (I want to say... from 2014? I think?), Khayon mentions struggling to be in the same room as Abaddon when he's carrying Drach'nyen. And it's not a huge spoiler to say that he doesn't think Drach'nyen is an A+ addition to the team.

 

But then, something I've not seen picked up on much (and this is surely down to me just not explaining it well, though I thought I'd covered it in a combination of The Talon of Horus and various repetitive forum/blog posts, as well as trusting in people's setting knowledge in general) is that the entire concept of Abaddon wielding Drach'nyen is an infinite loop, in a sense.

 

 

Well, I sure hope it's down to you not explaining it well, since the alternative is that I'm denser than granite. :P The possibility that Drach'nyen could be a hindrance to Abaddon never occured to me.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I guess when you roll a 1 for the mastery test it's a hindrance then right ?

[Xin Ceithan]

The Magnus thingy in the first pages, I had already forgotten about. Good eye there.

The " hard-to-look-at-part" about Abbadon I remember - though I had that down to him being chosen ("teased?") by all four powers and not to the daemon sword.

The part of the Blood Angels and their appreciation of humanity via their art I remembered from an ADB post somewhere here on the B&C :)

Funny enough, the "No Jumppack on MK III" debate apparently went past me. Honestly, I had never had thought that there wouldn't be a jump capable version. I just figured FW just had not churned them out or that the MK II pack would easily be converted ( both model and legion wise) and there probably would not be a need a for a mass produced Mk III Jump pack when so many MK II are available and the MK III being more of a specialiced upgrade than an advanced model. But then I am a sucker for Iron Armour and just wanted it jumpcapable, so nice to have that here, too.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah that came about because FW said that the front plates create balance issues so to them, lorewise, Mk III can't fly. Plus it's designed to be used in bunkers and inside.

[depthcharge12]

On a somewhat related note, has anyone seen the new music video for Avenged Sevenfold (The Stage)? When the Neanderthal kills the other guy as the "first murder"...

 

 

 

Did anyone think, bam, there's Drach'nyen? :P just kidding of course as the daemon was based on Cain/Abel...but I can still have fun haha

 

 

[Ion]

8 pages and no one has mentioned Zephon's moment of 'Drive me closer so I can hit it with my sword'?

 

http://i.imgur.com/BgJmlbN.jpg

[Loesh]

 

Regarding the First Murder being a demon of Chaos Undivided, wouldn't it have to be a demon without an origin in the four gods since it predates (and foreshadows) them?  Nurgle was born in the plague (either the Black Death or Justinian's plague), Khorne was born during the Mongol invasions, Tzeentch was born in the Renaissance, and Slaanesh was born during the Fall of the Eldar.  Presumably the First Murder predates all of those events, meaning it couldn't be a demon of any particular god.

 

Or is that all old fluff, about the origins of the three non-Slaanesh gods?

 

I confess I hadn't read any of that previously but given the way the Warp is represented now I think it safe to say that the three "Gods" came into being well before those events took place. Khorne certainly would have predated even the First Murder.

 

 

I think that pinpointing when the gods came into existence is a futile endeavor, not because it's impossible to do but rather because it doesn't matter. The Chaos Gods exist in a realm of a thousand paradoxes, where time is not linear, they can draw from and empower any point in existence where a life form had an emotion that fits their portfolio. The sacking of Constantinople probably birthed countless entities that would fit under Slaanesh, countless entities that probably manifest in 40k as actual Daemonettes, Fiends, Keepers, and things we simply don't have names for, because even though Slaanesh was born much later it exists in a realm where it now has free reign of that time period. 

 

Whether you consider the entities of Chaos as gods or not, they are absolutely immense in power. For all we know they engineered their own births.