Space Marine Legends: Azrael by Gav Thorpe

[rendingon1+]

Is Thorpe the writer that essentially does only Dark Angels and the DA's are "his" ?

Yes. He also has a tendention (happened twice) of shamelesly retconing anyting other DA writers did, because "Dark Angels are mine" (in Horus Heresy at least).

[R_F_D]

 

They've really gotta change the Lion helm to something other than Mark 7. It's the worst of any armor mark.

Agreed. But what really bugs me is - how does it fit? Does Azrael have an enourmous, Primarch-sized head? Or did the Lion have a tiny pin-head.

It's a petty thing, but it's always annoyed me.

 

On the subject of the book - is it a full blown novel, or just another novella? I'm getting a little tired of novellas.

 

 

Gav responds to the helmet issues in his Q&A on his blog.

[Biscuittzz]

Is Thorpe the writer that essentially does only Dark Angels and the DA's are "his" ?

 

No, he also single-handled ruined the Raven Guard's heresy storyline as well.

 

Honestly I don't think I've seen an author who is acknowledged as being universally bad. Like with ADB, Wraight etc some people like their works or have qualms about this or that, but overall the consensus is very positive for them. As b1soul has already said, his best writing is equivalent to what you see many fans write on forums and blogs.

 

His writing is too......static, if that makes sense. Seems like you're always reading about what has happened rather than what is happening.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

They've really gotta change the Lion helm to something other than Mark 7. It's the worst of any armor mark.

Agreed. But what really bugs me is - how does it fit? Does Azrael have an enourmous, Primarch-sized head? Or did the Lion have a tiny pin-head.

It's a petty thing, but it's always annoyed me.

 

On the subject of the book - is it a full blown novel, or just another novella? I'm getting a little tired of novellas.

Gav responds to the helmet issues in his Q&A on his blog.

This bothered me with Ulrik having the helm of Leman Russ

 

Great answer Gav. Reminds me why I haven't enjoyed anything you've done in like 20 years

[Mellow]

 

 

Is Thorpe the writer that essentially does only Dark Angels and the DA's are "his" ?

Yes. He also has a tendention (happened twice) of shamelesly retconing anyting other DA writers did, because "Dark Angels are mine" (in Horus Heresy at least).

That sounds extremely petty!

 

 

 

 

They've really gotta change the Lion helm to something other than Mark 7. It's the worst of any armor mark.

Agreed. But what really bugs me is - how does it fit? Does Azrael have an enourmous, Primarch-sized head? Or did the Lion have a tiny pin-head.

It's a petty thing, but it's always annoyed me.

 

On the subject of the book - is it a full blown novel, or just another novella? I'm getting a little tired of novellas.

Gav responds to the helmet issues in his Q&A on his blog.

This bothered me with Ulrik having the helm of Leman Russ

 

Great answer Gav. Reminds me why I haven't enjoyed anything you've done in like 20 years

"Great" answer

 

OK it's not. He sounds like a bit of a lemon and his writing is tragic at times.

[Vesper]

 

Is Thorpe the writer that essentially does only Dark Angels and the DA's are "his" ?

Yes. He also has a tendention (happened twice) of shamelesly retconing anyting other DA writers did, because "Dark Angels are mine" (in Horus Heresy at least).

 

 

Can you elaborate ?

 

Just curious.

[rendingon1+]

First that comes to my mind:

 

 

Angels of Caliban

His gaze moved to the banner again, of the Dark Angels.

Why dark, Luther wondered? When they had been renamed, why had the Emperor seen fit to call them His Dark Angels? Was it intended to intimidate His enemies? Had it been a joke, perhaps, on some cosmic scale that only the Master of Mankind understood?

He could believe the latter. A double-edged name, admitting their heavenly origins whilst condemning them to a future of darkness. The Lion adored the Emperor, more than any son loved a father, and in that had been his greatest weakness.

 

 

Fallen Angels (Mitchel Scanlon)
 

Beside him, Luther shielded his eyes and said, ‘And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light… the great and terrible dark angels.’

Zahariel recognised the words, having heard the fables of ancient times when the heroic dark angels, mysterious avengers

of righteousness had first fought the beasts of Caliban in the earliest ages of the world.

 

 

‘We are the First Legion,’ said the Lion, ‘the honoured, the Sons of the Lion, and we will not be marching to war without a name that strikes terror into the hearts of our enemies. As our legends spoke of the great heroes who held back the monsters of our distant past, so too shall we hold back the enemies of the Imperium as we set off into the great void to fight in the name of the Emperor.

‘We shall be the Dark Angels!’

 

 

Some may say it is irrevelant but for me it counts.

 

 

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

Is Thorpe the writer that essentially does only Dark Angels and the DA's are "his" ?

Yes. He also has a tendention (happened twice) of shamelesly retconing anyting other DA writers did, because "Dark Angels are mine" (in Horus Heresy at least).

That sounds extremely petty!

 

 

 

They've really gotta change the Lion helm to something other than Mark 7. It's the worst of any armor mark.

Agreed. But what really bugs me is - how does it fit? Does Azrael have an enourmous, Primarch-sized head? Or did the Lion have a tiny pin-head.

It's a petty thing, but it's always annoyed me.

 

On the subject of the book - is it a full blown novel, or just another novella? I'm getting a little tired of novellas.

Gav responds to the helmet issues in his Q&A on his blog.

This bothered me with Ulrik having the helm of Leman Russ

 

Great answer Gav. Reminds me why I haven't enjoyed anything you've done in like 20 years

"Great" answer

 

OK it's not. He sounds like a bit of a lemon and his writing is tragic at times.

 

 

But it makes utter sense - the provenance of things are always hard to establish, and things become associated with others. Really, Gav's answer here is historically sound, I can't believe someone would disagree with it.

[rendingon1+]

So...Dark Angels delated all pics/recordings of their primarch? Because It would be super easy just to take a look at the Lion's picture and see that a helm fitting "normal" astartes head won't fit a primarch.

They've really gotta change the Lion helm to something other than Mark 7. It's the worst of any armor mark.

Agreed. But what really bugs me is - how does it fit? Does Azrael have an enourmous, Primarch-sized head? Or did the Lion have a tiny pin-head.
It's a petty thing, but it's always annoyed me.

On the subject of the book - is it a full blown novel, or just another novella? I'm getting a little tired of novellas.

Gav responds to the helmet issues in his Q&A on his blog.

Hm, on his blog I found this (old, I know):

http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2016/11/23/space-hulk-deathwing-competition-time/

seriously...?

[Petitioner's City]

So...Dark Angels delated all pics/recordings of their primarch? Because It would be super easy just to take a look at the Lion's picture and see that a helm fitting "normal" astartes head won't fit a primarch.

And in the past all the relics of the True Cross would have filled a forest, yet still people believed that the one they knew was "true". Faith can triumph over reason, and that is presumably the case with the Lion Helm. Indeed historic artefacts - relics, objets d'art, heirlooms, things - these are the most likely to be get misassociated over time and gain their own stories, associations and mistruths that provide present comforts. Byzantine paintings - icons of the virgin and of Christ - of the later middle ages, for example, when taken to Italy were sold as not near-contemporary or only a few centuries old works, but genuinely ancient paintings taken from life. The lion helm seems to be another kind of Byzantine painting in a Latin setting.

 

A second thing is to consider that historic objects are continuously altered. The lion helm may have been altered to suit the smaller physiognomy of an Astartes. That may explain the sarum resemblance of the helmet.

 

Thirdly, the miniatures we see are not to scale, really. And so the helm seen on the watcher may in fact have no resemblance to the fictional helm. The miniatures of the game are fictively mimetic, but in truth ... Have no real scale, nor indeed is there any way to say the mini truly resembles what it claims to resemble in subject matter. As I said, fictively mimetic.

[DarkChaplain]

First that comes to my mind:

 

 

Angels of Caliban

His gaze moved to the banner again, of the Dark Angels.

 

Why dark, Luther wondered? When they had been renamed, why had the Emperor seen fit to call them His Dark Angels? Was it intended to intimidate His enemies? Had it been a joke, perhaps, on some cosmic scale that only the Master of Mankind understood?

 

He could believe the latter. A double-edged name, admitting their heavenly origins whilst condemning them to a future of darkness. The Lion adored the Emperor, more than any son loved a father, and in that had been his greatest weakness.

 

 

Fallen Angels (Mitchel Scanlon)

 

Beside him, Luther shielded his eyes and said, ‘And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light… the great and terrible dark angels.’

Zahariel recognised the words, having heard the fables of ancient times when the heroic dark angels, mysterious avengers

of righteousness had first fought the beasts of Caliban in the earliest ages of the world.

 

 

‘We are the First Legion,’ said the Lion, ‘the honoured, the Sons of the Lion, and we will not be marching to war without a name that strikes terror into the hearts of our enemies. As our legends spoke of the great heroes who held back the monsters of our distant past, so too shall we hold back the enemies of the Imperium as we set off into the great void to fight in the name of the Emperor.

‘We shall be the Dark Angels!’

 

 

Some may say it is irrevelant but for me it counts.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Angels of Caliban is post-Forge World rewrites and retcons. A lot of Angels of Caliban was so heavily inspired and co-directed by Alan Bligh and co that Gav even says that Bligh had a massive role in the writing of the book.

 

From the Afterword even:

 

 

Much of the most recent development of the Dark Angels has come from another Alan – Mr Bligh of Forge World. His work has delved back further than any before, to the very founding of the Legion as the first of a new kind of elite warriors created by the Emperor. For my purposes, many of these revelations are embodied within Astelan, the incarnation of the First as they were at the time of the Emperor’s Unification of Terra. It’s been fascinating to see this character continue to take me in unexpected directions thanks to these ongoing explorations of the background, and yet still holding to the same ideals and personality that were laid down fifteen years past.

 

I think it is blatantly unfair to blame Gav for changes to the lore that were very likely dictated by Forge World who are, in contrast, heavily praised around here even though their books have been walking all over the first dozens of books in the series and opened up a lot of inconsistencies. What Mitchel Scanlon wrote 8 or 9 years ago just isn't accurate anymore in a post-FW world.

 

And even Scanlon says in his 2013 afterword to the re-release of Descent of Angels (not Fallen Angels, that was Mike Lee) that the Dark Angels, more than any other Legion, are defined by their secrets. If you consider that, and it is most assuredly the truth, how is it such a surprise that the Lion Helm too is subject to mystery and obfuscation?

 

Then again, at this point I'm resigned to the fact that there'll always be a Gav circlejerk going on, regardless of what he writes.

[b1soul]

I do not blame Gav for DA lore changes...though I absolutely detest RG lore changes in DL (regardless of whether he was the driving force behind those silly changes)

 

I do "blame" Gav for poor writing. As mentioned, his writing is "static", i.e. flat, dry, bland, no spark.

 

I personally find it very difficult to slog through his prose. I also don't like his creative decisions, if indeed those decisions are his.

 

I actually think Kyme has shown a bit of improvement, whereas Gav is as bland as he has always been

[Phoebus]

I'm sorry, but explaining away the Lion Helm issue on "uncertain provenance" strikes me as borderline lazy. The odds that the Dark Angels, circa M41, are confused regarding the scale between Primarch and Space Marine are low enough as to be negligible.

 

Here's the part that bothers me about this, though. Given that the fiction written about this setting so often suffers from an obligation (actual or imagined) to stay true to the game that gave birth to it, I find it rather ironic that recent cover artists appear to have forgotten that the Lion Helm is historically depicted as being carried by a Watcher in the Dark - not worn by the Supreme Grand Master. If there has been guidance to go a different route, that's fine (or not, depending on your point of view)... but Gav would do better to reference that, instead of providing a fairly unimaginative answer.

 

Corswain,

 

It's a smaller-size novel. The eBook format clocks in at around 270-something pages in default font size.

[b1soul]

I'm sorry, but explaining away the Lion Helm issue on "uncertain provenance" strikes me as borderline lazy.

Yeah...it would be downright bizarre/idiotic for the DA to believe that the Lion wore an Astartes-scale helm

 

It would make more sense for the DA to understand that the original helm was badly damaged before being re-crafted to fit an Astartes head

[Master Ciaphas]

Most of Gav´s writing has been horrific, sure. However, with regard to "Angels of Caliban" (which I have not read, as it has yet to come out in mass market paperback), I have understood that it is actually a massive improvement over his other Dark Angel works, exactly because Mr. Alan Bligh held Thorpes hand (gently or not) throughout the writing of the book...

 

So I will assuredly be getting "Angels of Caliban" - and with regards to the book this topic is actually about, "Azrael", I bought the limited edition, and it is lying at home, waiting for me to read it. I am, after all, a massive fan of the Dark Angels, and the 1st Legion was the entire reason for me getting in to Warhammer 40k...and I dare not think about the massive amounts of money I have spent since 1992 on Games Workshop products...*shiver*....

[b1soul]

I used to adore BA, DA, and RG in roughly that order...

 

I also liked Salamanders

 

 

 

The bad fiction really killed my passion

[Augustus]

Most of Gav´s writing has been horrific, sure. However, with regard to "Angels of Caliban" (which I have not read, as it has yet to come out in mass market paperback), I have understood that it is actually a massive improvement over his other Dark Angel works, exactly because Mr. Alan Bligh held Thorpes hand (gently or not) throughout the writing of the book...

 

So I will assuredly be getting "Angels of Caliban" - and with regards to the book this topic is actually about, "Azrael", I bought the limited edition, and it is lying at home, waiting for me to read it. I am, after all, a massive fan of the Dark Angels, and the 1st Legion was the entire reason for me getting in to Warhammer 40k...and I dare not think about the massive amounts of money I have spent since 1992 on Games Workshop products...*shiver*....

 

It would have been a good book. If you swap the Primarch of the 1st legion with a dude named "Lyyn Elgonsen." Maybe Alpharius isn't the only one with a twin.

[Petitioner's City]

 

I'm sorry, but explaining away the Lion Helm issue on "uncertain provenance" strikes me as borderline lazy.

Yeah...it would be downright bizarre/idiotic for the DA to believe that the Lion wore an Astartes-scale helm

 

It would make more sense for the DA to understand that the original helm was badly damaged before being re-crafted to fit an Astartes head

Well that's one of the two other things I suggested - a changed object. Maybe the lion helm is a reliquary, with parts of his helm held within it.

 

But I'm an art historian, and trust me, misidentifications of provenance in centuries past are hard to disprove in the general popular consensus, and sometimes amongst scholars too. And in a society where questioning is punished, it just makes sense that questioning well-held truths would be very hard to do. Its like challenging the origins of scripture (either its divine origins or its claimed human authorship or even its composition) in the most fundamentalist sect.

[rendingon1+]

 

First that comes to my mind:

 

 

Angels of Caliban

His gaze moved to the banner again, of the Dark Angels.

 

Why dark, Luther wondered? When they had been renamed, why had the Emperor seen fit to call them His Dark Angels? Was it intended to intimidate His enemies? Had it been a joke, perhaps, on some cosmic scale that only the Master of Mankind understood?

 

He could believe the latter. A double-edged name, admitting their heavenly origins whilst condemning them to a future of darkness. The Lion adored the Emperor, more than any son loved a father, and in that had been his greatest weakness.

 

 

Fallen Angels (Mitchel Scanlon)

 

Beside him, Luther shielded his eyes and said, ‘And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light… the great and terrible dark angels.’

Zahariel recognised the words, having heard the fables of ancient times when the heroic dark angels, mysterious avengers

of righteousness had first fought the beasts of Caliban in the earliest ages of the world.

 

 

‘We are the First Legion,’ said the Lion, ‘the honoured, the Sons of the Lion, and we will not be marching to war without a name that strikes terror into the hearts of our enemies. As our legends spoke of the great heroes who held back the monsters of our distant past, so too shall we hold back the enemies of the Imperium as we set off into the great void to fight in the name of the Emperor.

‘We shall be the Dark Angels!’

 

 

Some may say it is irrevelant but for me it counts.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Angels of Caliban is post-Forge World rewrites and retcons. A lot of Angels of Caliban was so heavily inspired and co-directed by Alan Bligh and co that Gav even says that Bligh had a massive role in the writing of the book.

 

From the Afterword even:

 

 

Much of the most recent development of the Dark Angels has come from another Alan – Mr Bligh of Forge World. His work has delved back further than any before, to the very founding of the Legion as the first of a new kind of elite warriors created by the Emperor. For my purposes, many of these revelations are embodied within Astelan, the incarnation of the First as they were at the time of the Emperor’s Unification of Terra. It’s been fascinating to see this character continue to take me in unexpected directions thanks to these ongoing explorations of the background, and yet still holding to the same ideals and personality that were laid down fifteen years past.

 

I think it is blatantly unfair to blame Gav for changes to the lore that were very likely dictated by Forge World who are, in contrast, heavily praised around here even though their books have been walking all over the first dozens of books in the series and opened up a lot of inconsistencies. What Mitchel Scanlon wrote 8 or 9 years ago just isn't accurate anymore in a post-FW world.

 

And even Scanlon says in his 2013 afterword to the re-release of Descent of Angels (not Fallen Angels, that was Mike Lee) that the Dark Angels, more than any other Legion, are defined by their secrets. If you consider that, and it is most assuredly the truth, how is it such a surprise that the Lion Helm too is subject to mystery and obfuscation?

 

Then again, at this point I'm resigned to the fact that there'll always be a Gav circlejerk going on, regardless of what he writes.

 

I respectfully disagree. First thing, we don't know what changes were dictated by FW's new approach to Dark Angels legion. Since all the FW books are rather focused on military side of the factions I assume it was only the introduction of Six Wings and all that is connected with them ie. their specialization, equipment, modus operandi, how successor (voted lieutenant) is chosen and how do they work in wider DA structure + mayby characters (Farith).  Retconning Scanlon's part serves no purpose only some cheap musings about "dual nature of Dark Angels" which is kind of boring and obvious. I think it's unfair to use FW as an explenation why Thorpe had to do some things and most of all is a bad author. Besides it works both ways - most of the FW Horus Heresy characters and (obviously) events are taken from BL fiction. After all I'm glad of Alan Bligh's intervention into Angels of Caliban lol.

[b1soul]

Well that's one of the two other things I suggested - a changed object.

Yeah...that would make sense

 

I can't really buy that even 40k DA are unaware of a primarch's size

[Phoebus]

[Well that's one of the two other things I suggested - a changed object. Maybe the lion helm is a reliquary, with parts of his helm held within it.

I think that's a terrific idea that at least needs to be qualified within a story, as opposed to just leaving it up to the reader to think of it.

 

But I'm an art historian, and trust me, misidentifications of provenance in centuries past are hard to disprove in the general popular consensus, and sometimes amongst scholars too.

As an amateur historian and former student of the arts, I agree wholeheartedly. That having been said, I sincerely doubt that we've ever had to worry about historians misidentifiying a 10-12ft tall demigod's helmet for the one George Patton wore during World War 2. ;)

[HeritorA]

 

 

Is Thorpe the writer that essentially does only Dark Angels and the DA's are "his" ?

Yes. He also has a tendention (happened twice) of shamelesly retconing anyting other DA writers did, because "Dark Angels are mine" (in Horus Heresy at least).

That sounds extremely petty!

 

 

 

They've really gotta change the Lion helm to something other than Mark 7. It's the worst of any armor mark.

Agreed. But what really bugs me is - how does it fit? Does Azrael have an enourmous, Primarch-sized head? Or did the Lion have a tiny pin-head.

It's a petty thing, but it's always annoyed me.

 

On the subject of the book - is it a full blown novel, or just another novella? I'm getting a little tired of novellas.

Gav responds to the helmet issues in his Q&A on his blog.

This bothered me with Ulrik having the helm of Leman Russ

 

Great answer Gav. Reminds me why I haven't enjoyed anything you've done in like 20 years

"Great" answer

 

OK it's not. He sounds like a bit of a lemon and his writing is tragic at times.

 

Indeed. It is not 'great'. Gav stuff is generally moderate in quality. I read only 1 book of highest quality from him - and it was an old 'Angels of Darkness'.

 

I used to adore BA, DA, and RG in roughly that order...

 

I also liked Salamanders

 

 

 

The bad fiction really killed my passion

You are not alone. DA, BA, RG, Salamanders were simply unlucky enough to get a shortest straw, sadly. At least BA and DA had some justice done to them by A D-B and Smillie.