Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[LaurieJGoulding]

 

If my cursory understanding of markets is correct more people actually buy BL novels than codexes. Because anyone in the world can pop into a bookshop and snag a book because they like it's cover, but I would be tremendously surprised if there are over a million people who buy a codex. TT players are a minuscule community. I'm using the million number as a reference because I think that's the threshold for NYT bestseller.

 

 

Not quite - you only need sales in the thousands in a single week to get onto the NYT lists... but your reasoning is otherwise sound.

 

Forums like B&C are an echo-chamber. 'Horus Rising' has sold more copies in its lifetime than every single SM Codex combined.

 

And, over time, you will notice that the more recent Codexes and the BL fiction are following a much closer "common canon". Remember, for more than 18 months, ALL GW books came across the same Editorial desks...

 

Ladies and gentlemen, you are welcome. [mic drop, exit stage left]

[Marshal Rohr]

I was just being sarcastic. 40k is definitely British. It's why America never shows up in the Heresy and there aren't any Americans writing big stories. ;) In the 40k universe 1776 never happened.

 

Edit: Ah, that makes sense. Wasn't sure what the threshold was. The only thing Ive ever written that got a modicum of positive feedback was an analysis of the Saudi-Iran security situation reviewed by a Palestinian. Definition of echo chamber.

[helterskelter]

You shouldn't ruin a perfectly good microphone like that by dropping it.

[Scribe]

 

 

If my cursory understanding of markets is correct more people actually buy BL novels than codexes. Because anyone in the world can pop into a bookshop and snag a book because they like it's cover, but I would be tremendously surprised if there are over a million people who buy a codex. TT players are a minuscule community. I'm using the million number as a reference because I think that's the threshold for NYT bestseller.

 

 

Not quite - you only need sales in the thousands in a single week to get onto the NYT lists... but your reasoning is otherwise sound.

 

Forums like B&C are an echo-chamber. 'Horus Rising' has sold more copies in its lifetime than every single SM Codex combined.

 

And, over time, you will notice that the more recent Codexes and the BL fiction are following a much closer "common canon". Remember, for more than 18 months, ALL GW books came across the same Editorial desks...

 

Ladies and gentlemen, you are welcome. [mic drop, exit stage left]

 

 

Who's fault is that Iron Hands 180 then?! :p

 

And Runefyre, no Russ didnt hold back. I would love to see your 'evidence', when it was Russ that attacked. Held his LEGION back, sure, but he himself, did not.

[Vesper]

(* = And not least, I'm a pro-Europe, anti-Brexit, fully paid up liberal. I'd rather be hated by right-wingers for that, than mistakenly accused of being racist or fascist.)

Woa, politics and stuff. Dude, it's a plastic/metal/lame finecast resin toys forum, not some random place where you can mistake Europe for the European Union. One is a cultural and geographical reality and the other an administrative one akin to the Third Reich or the Soviet Union.

 

But you live on distant Albion. I heard you sank into the depths, like Atlantis, post-Brexit. I hope you're all alright, I'd loath to see you disappear because I really want the Black Legion series to continue and it would suck to lose you to that kind of near biblical cataclysm when we've had two hundred years long wars and fought side by side during two world wars.

 

But back on lighter topics, I've finally found the time to read Weregeld. I liked it quite a bit, which is a pleasant surprise since I've not been a huge fan of Gavin's work overall.

 

I thought it may have deserved a little more time on the Yarant III side of things, but that may be because that perticular battle is to be expanded in a full novel, something along those lines. At least I hope so. But anyway, I thought it gave the Raptors' angle a satisfying end, along with creating an interesting and compelling dynamic between the Space Wolves and Corax. Corax seeing the personal banner of Abaddon, echoing Horus' one he had seen on Istvaan was a nice touch. Gav may have been a little too pushy on the suicidal tendencies of Corax, I'd rather have it be more subtle, keeping the big things for the fallout of the Heresy and the near-death of the Emperor, but hey.

 

On the Leman Russ subject, there isn't much to say so far. He has been so badly injured his sons think he may die, just like his Legion, in fact. The implied analogy is also a cool thing. Looking for "a good death" might not appeal to all, but I found it fitting for Russ (who had a vision of his own death) and the Space Wolves. I haven't felt like the story did them any bad (appart from slaughtering most of them) and losing big didn't made them uncool, quite the contrary, in fact. That's what I quite liked with the covering of Alaxxes. We're so used to 40k, when they seemingly never lose, even against insurmontable odds, that gets tiring very fast and expanding on how they reflect on defeat was a great and refreshing thing that needed to be done. We don't get that much of that in Weregeld but still, what we get from concerned Wolf Lords a seriously wounded Leman Russ is still good.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Who's fault is that Iron Hands 180 then?!

Clan Raukaan? Nothing to do with BL, I'm afraid. That was from the dark times, before the Studio even used to tell us what they were publishing...

I'm not sure it's a bad development of the IP, though. Revolutionary characters rising to power seems like something that would happen in every aspect of the Imperium, in 10,000 years. I certainly hope you're giving the BL side of that at least the benefit of the doubt, because David Guymer's stuff focusing on Kardan Stronos is shaping up really nicely.

Check out 'The Calculus of Battle' and tell me you don't think that fits just as well with the old background, pre-Clan Raukaan supplement.

If a "180" from the Studio is the first pass, BL's fiction usually smooths it over a little more organically.

[Scribe]

You continue to give me hope, shame you're leaving them. :p

 

Maybe I'll give that a look, as yes I agree BL has a habit of fixing things.

[Runefyre]

(* = And not least, I'm a pro-Europe, anti-Brexit, fully paid up liberal. I'd rather be hated by right-wingers for that, than mistakenly accused of being racist or fascist.)

Woa, politics and stuff. Dude, it's a plastic/metal/lame finecast resin toys forum, not some random place where you can mistake Europe for the European Union. One is a cultural and geographical reality and the other an administrative one akin to the Third Reich or the Soviet Union.

But you live on distant Albion. I heard you sank into the depths, like Atlantis, post-Brexit. I hope you're all alright, I'd loath to see you disappear because I really want the Black Legion series to continue and it would suck to lose you to that kind of near biblical cataclysm when we've had two hundred years long wars and fought side by side during two world wars.

But back on lighter topics, I've finally found the time to read Weregeld. I liked it quite a bit, which is a pleasant surprise since I've not been a huge fan of Gavin's work overall.

I thought it may have deserved a little more time on the Yarant III side of things, but that may be because that perticular battle is to be expanded in a full novel, something along those lines. At least I hope so. But anyway, I thought it gave the Raptors' angle a satisfying end, along with creating an interesting and compelling dynamic between the Space Wolves and Corax. Corax seeing the personal banner of Abaddon, echoing Horus' one he had seen on Istvaan was a nice touch. Gav may have been a little too pushy on the suicidal tendencies of Corax, I'd rather have it be more subtle, keeping the big things for the fallout of the Heresy and the near-death of the Emperor, but hey.

On the Leman Russ subject, there isn't much to say so far. He has been so badly injured his sons think he may die, just like his Legion, in fact. The implied analogy is also a cool thing. Looking for "a good death" might not appeal to all, but I found it fitting for Russ (who had a vision of his own death) and the Space Wolves. I haven't felt like the novel did them any bad (appart from slaughtering most of them) and losing big didn't made them uncool, quite the contrary, in fact. That's what I quite liked with the covering of Alaxxes. We're so used to 40k, when they seemingly never lose, even against insurmontable odds, that gets tiring very fast and expanding on how the reflect on defeat was a great and refreshing thing that needed to be done. We don't get that much of that in Weregeld but still, what we get from concerned Wolf Lords a seriously wounded Leman Russ is still good.

So basically, you only enjoy SW's when they are defeated. And I hate it when people still call 40k wolves op. Have you read the Warzone Fenris series? The new Wolves that GW is writing are far from op. People need to move on and stop it with old sterotypes.

If my cursory understanding of markets is correct more people actually buy BL novels than codexes. Because anyone in the world can pop into a bookshop and snag a book because they like it's cover, but I would be tremendously surprised if there are over a million people who buy a codex. TT players are a minuscule community. I'm using the million number as a reference because I think that's the threshold for NYT bestseller.

Not quite - you only need sales in the thousands in a single week to get onto the NYT lists... but your reasoning is otherwise sound.

Forums like B&C are an echo-chamber. 'Horus Rising' has sold more copies in its lifetime than every single SM Codex combined.

And, over time, you will notice that the more recent Codexes and the BL fiction are following a much closer "common canon". Remember, for more than 18 months, ALL GW books came across the same Editorial desks...

Ladies and gentlemen, you are welcome. [mic drop, exit stage left]

Who's fault is that Iron Hands 180 then?!

And Runefyre, no Russ didnt hold back. I would love to see your 'evidence', when it was Russ that attacked. Held his LEGION back, sure, but he himself, did not.

Considering Lorgar and Angron noted that Russ didn't have the authority to kill or punish Angron, Russ would never have given the order to execute him no matter what. It's not in Russ's capabilities at that time to disobey orders (that changed in Wolf King). Because Russ came of his own volition there would be zero justification for Angron's death. By definition Russ couldn't have been fighting for Angron's life, but rather for his. I think Russ underestimated Angron's willingness to fight to the death. Russ probably hoped to bludgeon him into submission without killing him (which would never work, if you fight angron you must kill him or he'll kill you).

Another note is that in Leman Russ (the novel) Russ notes that he has only ever been beat twice. Once by Johnson, and once by Horus. Russ is brutally honest, so if he doesn't consider his dual with Angron a defeat , then there have to be other motives at work there.

On the other hand I can totally see how Angron definitely "won" and I think it's awesome that Wolves fans and WE fans will always hold that their chosen faction came out on top just like in the books

[Scribe]

Russ was called out for even attacking Angron, in the text. He crossed the line, period.

 

He then LOST the fight, and crawled away before he looked around and realization dawned on him 'mistakes have been made'

 

He then tried to salvage the situation, failed to convince Angron and THEN held back, by leaving.

 

In no reading of the actual text can you show Russ held back, so feel free to drag out some quotes, but I've done this before, and nobody has shown me how Russ himself holds back.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Saying that though. Angron is like the red hulk. Super strong, super capable but I'd still think nothing less of le man Russ (in this instance wolverine) for giving him his best shot and not winning. Russ is by all means still a total bad ass.

[Vesper]

So basically, you only enjoy SW's when they are defeated. And I hate it when people still call 40k wolves op. Have you read the Warzone Fenris series? The new Wolves that GW is writing are far from op. People need to move on and stop it with old sterotypes.

Yes it's what i said. Wait, no, I didn't !

What I said is that defeat is a crucial thing for any military character / organization because it allows you to go in depth with it, to face it and overcome it or to be crushed by it.

Yes, I enjoy exploring that with the Space Wolves, because the farthest I am from "Our Chapter is the bestest, we won again for ever ! Let's all get drunk like Space Vikings because that's awesome" the better. I can eventually understand, when I am in a good mood, that people enjoy that, but ain't my case. But seeing the Space Wolves lose, not for the sake of it but for what it allows in character development, pleases me as a reader, because that's makes them interesting and non bidimensional to me. And that's a solid plus.

I mean, I play Black Legion. The Sons of Horus lost at Terra. Worst, they had victory within their reach and they ruined everything for the traitors by fleeing like headless chickens. And seeing them broken, destroyed, hunted down, hopeless, on the brink of extinction, only to be reborn. Free of the shackles of the past. That's awesome. And I enjoy that kind of good writing and developement for every Legion. That doesn't mean I want every Legion to go from absolute top to absolute bottom like the Sons of Horus, because that's their mythos, but everyone should experience victories and defeats. How can you trully know yourself if you haven't ever experienced the pain to be at your lowest ? Begining to sound like Tyler Durden, might join Laurie in the pseudo fascist club .

I'm not counting points. I just want the Space Wolves to interest me.

And Warzone Fenris went a little easy on the SW. Clearly, it wasn't the reprisal I was expecting. If it was up to me, I would've turned Fenris into a Daemon World and sent the remaining Space Wolves to Cadia with the remnants of their fleet to find the good death they want. Not out of spite, because I'm usually not petty enough to plot the demise of a fictional faction in a fictional universe, but because we're at two minutes to midnight and it makes the most sense rather than a half-assed "we lost but we won, they lost but they won" situation.

[Scribe]

Saying that though. Angron is like the red hulk. Super strong, super capable but I'd still think nothing less of le man Russ (in this instance wolverine) for giving him his best shot and not winning. Russ is by all means still a total bad ass.

 

Yeah, i'm not casting any judgments on who is better. I'm on record as saying the WE are a broken legion, with a broken Primarch. Despite people taking the easy road often and just calling me biased, I'm totally willing to give it all a fair appraisal.

 

I've been having this argument about Wolves vs WE's since Prospero Burns, and Night of the Wolf is pretty clear on what goes on...yet people insist on reading into it, what isnt there.

 

Sorry, its an old old wound for me at this point, that when brought up, picks at me. :p

[Runefyre]

Russ was called out for even attacking Angron, in the text. He crossed the line, period.

He then LOST the fight, and crawled away before he looked around and realization dawned on him 'mistakes have been made'

He then tried to salvage the situation, failed to convince Angron and THEN held back, by leaving.

In no reading of the actual text can you show Russ held back, so feel free to drag out some quotes, but I've done this before, and nobody has shown me how Russ himself holds back.

I don't see how Russ could have been trying to kill Angron, considering he was trying to teach him a lesson. You will also note that I've never once asserted that Russ would still beat Angron in a fight to the death, just that I hold the opinion that it was only a fight to the death for one combatant involved (Russ, who was clearly fighting for his life). I think losing the actual fight denotes that Russ definitely underestimated Angron's willingness to kill.

And if you only consider one book that is a single selection from a large series when discussing a topic, you're being rather narrow-minded. In a different book we get Russ commenting on his defeats, and he doesn't count his fight with Angron in his (short) list.

And again, I like that both sides have evidence for their points. That's kinda the point I think. It's ambiguous enough that there is room for debate and separate opinions based on which faction you prefer. So to each his own, I'm done discussing this for now

[WarriorFish]

Can we make sure to stay on topic please? Any off topic will be removed without notification or warning. Thanks.

[Runefyre]

 

So basically, you only enjoy SW's when they are defeated. And I hate it when people still call 40k wolves op. Have you read the Warzone Fenris series? The new Wolves that GW is writing are far from op. People need to move on and stop it with old sterotypes.

 

Yes it's what i said. Wait, no, I didn't !

 

What I said is that defeat is a crucial thing for any military character / organization because it allows you to go in depth with it, to face it and overcome it or to be crushed by it.

 

Yes, I enjoy exploring that with the Space Wolves, because the farthest I am from "Our Chapter is the bestest, we won again for ever ! Let's all get drunk like Space Vikings because that's awesome" the better. I can eventually understand, when I am in a good mood, that people enjoy that, but ain't my case. But seeing the Space Wolves lose, not for the sake of it but for what it allows in character development, pleases me as a reader, because that's makes them interesting and non bidimensional to me. And that's a solid plus.

 

I mean, I play Black Legion. The Sons of Horus lost at Terra. Worst, they had victory within their reach and they ruined everything for the traitors by fleeing like headless chickens. And seeing them broken, destroyed, hunted down, hopeless, on the brink of extinction, only to be reborn. Free of the shackles of the past. That's awesome. And I enjoy that kind of good writing and developement for every Legion.

 

I'm not counting points. I just want the Space Wolves to interest me.

 

And Warzone Fenris went a little easy on the SW. Clearly, it wasn't the reprisal I was expecting. If it was up to me, I would've turned Fenris into a Daemon World and sent the remaining Space Wolves to Cadia with the remnants of their fleet to find the good death they want. Not out of spite, because I'm usually not petty enough to plot the demise of a fictional faction in a fictional universe, but because we're at two minutes to midnight and it makes the most sense rather than a half-assed "we lost but we won, they lost but they won" situation.

 

This is a game that thrives on factions existing. I fail to see how destroying the SW's makes them awesome. The point isn't to see them die, but to play their army while they're still alive. Not to mention the whole "we lost but we won, they lost but they won" is exactly what happened at Prospero. I would be very disheartened if GW allowed the Tsons to fully succeed were the Wolves couldn't.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I always expected decimation on a massive scale. Just not to the inconsistency that I have seen.

[Vesper]

 

 

So basically, you only enjoy SW's when they are defeated. And I hate it when people still call 40k wolves op. Have you read the Warzone Fenris series? The new Wolves that GW is writing are far from op. People need to move on and stop it with old sterotypes.

 

Yes it's what i said. Wait, no, I didn't !

 

What I said is that defeat is a crucial thing for any military character / organization because it allows you to go in depth with it, to face it and overcome it or to be crushed by it.

 

Yes, I enjoy exploring that with the Space Wolves, because the farthest I am from "Our Chapter is the bestest, we won again for ever ! Let's all get drunk like Space Vikings because that's awesome" the better. I can eventually understand, when I am in a good mood, that people enjoy that, but ain't my case. But seeing the Space Wolves lose, not for the sake of it but for what it allows in character development, pleases me as a reader, because that's makes them interesting and non bidimensional to me. And that's a solid plus.

 

I mean, I play Black Legion. The Sons of Horus lost at Terra. Worst, they had victory within their reach and they ruined everything for the traitors by fleeing like headless chickens. And seeing them broken, destroyed, hunted down, hopeless, on the brink of extinction, only to be reborn. Free of the shackles of the past. That's awesome. And I enjoy that kind of good writing and developement for every Legion.

 

I'm not counting points. I just want the Space Wolves to interest me.

 

And Warzone Fenris went a little easy on the SW. Clearly, it wasn't the reprisal I was expecting. If it was up to me, I would've turned Fenris into a Daemon World and sent the remaining Space Wolves to Cadia with the remnants of their fleet to find the good death they want. Not out of spite, because I'm usually not petty enough to plot the demise of a fictional faction in a fictional universe, but because we're at two minutes to midnight and it makes the most sense rather than a half-assed "we lost but we won, they lost but they won" situation.

 

This is a game that thrives on factions existing. I fail to see how destroying the SW's makes them awesome. The point isn't to see them die, but to play their army while they're still alive. Not to mention the whole "we lost but we won, they lost but they won" is exactly what happened at Prospero. I would be very disheartened if GW allowed the Tsons to fully succeed were the Wolves couldn't.

From a marketing POV, I agree. I would'nt have killed the Space Wolves completely, even though I highly doubt all the factions will make it post 13th Black Crusade. It's the Time of the Ending for a reason, and it would seriously lessen it if there were no dire consequences.

 

On the Prospero thing, I agree too, I don't think a total Thousand Sons success would've been a good idea either. I just would've tipped the balance a little bit more on their side, because Prospero was a greater semi-success for the Space Wolves than the semi-success of Fenris for the Thousand Sons.

 

But that's me and my amazing opinion.

 

[Pariah32]

I'm a huge fan of the Vlka Fenryka and there depiction through out the Horus Heresy in my humble opinion has made them even better. These guys just don't know how to back down and could not give a about what everyone thinks of them.

[LaurieJGoulding]

I'm a huge fan of the Vlka Fenryka and there depiction through out the Horus Heresy in my humble opinion has made them even better. These guys just don't know how to back down and could not give a about what everyone thinks of them.

This.

[helterskelter]

To be fair they did try to out Mor, Mor vs the quietude. Granted it was a space station and not a moon but still that was pretty awesome

[Legatus]

So I take it further discussion about general canon policy would be considered off-topic?

[Scribe]

So I take it further discussion about general canon policy would be considered off-topic?

 

Probably, not like discussions dont flow, but thats a personal issue of mine. :p

[Marshal Rohr]

So I take it further discussion about general canon policy would be considered off-topic?

You could politely ask Laurie to explain it in a new thread, but I don't think there's much 'discussion' to be had :P I don't think anything short of a hostile takeover of the majority share of Games Workshop by LegCorp is going to change anything.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

So I take it further discussion about general canon policy would be considered off-topic?

Yes, very much so

 

However, nothing is stopping you from creating a thread to discuss the topic

[mc warhammer]

re angron beating russ in a fight, it's interesting that russ still believes without hesitation that he can beat angron (his quote in VS). it could imply that he's taken angron's measure during their scuffle.

 

and with the WS and russ being so messed up in weregeld was probably due to overwhelming odds, not a lack of ability on their part. i imagine any other loyal legion in their place would have suffered