Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[The_son_of_Dorn]

The Issue we have here is there are few instances of Primarch Versus Primarch in a "serious" none warp enhanced fair bare knuckle brawl. There are few being's baring greater deamons or planetary destruction scale events that could rock a primarch or challenge them. The main issue here though is time scale. Events and scenarios will always be different or have unforeseen variables that just don't allow for a true deception of any PvP.

 

A lot of this is due to plot and writer interpretation being confined to a very tight time scale crammed with inter galactic events. I personally keep my mind open to a controversial (among many at least) perspective that any primarch can indeed beat any primarch. (Although the ratio's may put them at steep odds)  

[Mellow]

I hope we'll get to see Angron in his pre-Nails state, at least once.

 

I imagine his early days to be much like the original Conan movie.

Something like this?

 

"Hello fellow Human. What a marvellous day it is. Would you like me to read you a poem? ... wait, what's an 'eldar'?!"

[HeritorA]

 

I hope we'll get to see Angron in his pre-Nails state, at least once.

 

I imagine his early days to be much like the original Conan movie.

I always pictured him more like Sparticus, personally. While Conan had a pit fighter streak, he doesn't really capture the Gladiator leading a major revolt against the slavers feel.

 

He is too eratic and insane to lead anything. Nice commander - do anything for me I will go chop some heads

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

I hope we'll get to see Angron in his pre-Nails state, at least once.

 

I imagine his early days to be much like the original Conan movie.

I always pictured him more like Sparticus, personally. While Conan had a pit fighter streak, he doesn't really capture the Gladiator leading a major revolt against the slavers feel.

He is too eratic and insane to lead anything. Nice commander - do anything for me I will go chop some heads

Right, because we don't have all of his lore saying he lead a sparticus level rebellion. /sarcasm

 

And if that is a defense of the Conan statement, it's not. Because the originals Conan was also a learned scholar and statesman who used stealth and stole :cuss more than fought. Get real, Conan is further from him than Spartacus is.

 

 

However, I did miss the "pre nails" part originally, so yeah I can see him as being the adult Conan before being enslaved and turned into a gladiator.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Always read the whole post.

[Arkangilos]

Always read the whole post.

Sorry :( I was distracted when I read it.

[pompeyladbfp]

When Angron was found wounded by the slavers he was nursed back to health and immediately received the bio-neural implants. At least that's how it reads in the World Eaters Index Astartes article. So here Angron's pre-nails life would have been roaming the wilderness or smaller communities on that world, until he was attacked by some Eldar, which left him in the wounded state he was later discovered in.

 

It would still be a great short story, an Eldar kill team sent to kill the young Primarch before he could ascend to his fate, actually causing him to be injured and therefore be found by the slavers and have the nails installed...classic Eldar Hubris.

 

if they had just left him alone, maybe he would have been another Sanguinuis....

[Pariah32]

Once again Chris Wraight nails Russ's perception down perfectly as Russ even states to one of his sons that he has only ever been beaten by two of his brothers and neither of them are Angron. The sheer arrogance and rationality of how Russ saw that fight shows us exactly what he thought about it.

Clearly he did not expect it to go as far as it did, but also that in his eyes, and other forumites he did not lose just retreated. Whilst in Angrons and again other forumites he did lose and got a proper beat down.

But for me what I took away from that was that I hardly think any other primarch would have ever had the audacity and balls to try and reign in Angron, this is a guy who is clearly dangerous, unstable, psychotic and has survived by winning gladiatorial fights for his entire life for the sport of others and yet Russ stands up to him any way, now that's either brave or stupid, either way he did do it.

For me it was not about the fight but the fact this event happened in the first place, which was sheer crazy. As a Vlka Fenryka and world Eater fan The night of the wolf for me was a great hidden gem from the Horus Heresy and displayed both legions against each other perfectly. Kudos to ADB for depicting it so well

[pompeyladbfp]

hmm, I think it boils down to how people react to other people, you always assume they will react as you expect, but if they have a mental illness then you really have no idea how they will react.

[mc warhammer]

hmm, I think it boils down to how people react to other people, you always assume they will react as you expect, but if they have a mental illness then you really have no idea how they will react.

you don't even need to go that far. people are surprising

[HeritorA]

hmm, I think it boils down to how people react to other people, you always assume they will react as you expect, but if they have a mental illness then you really have no idea how they will react.

you don't even need to go that far. people are surprising

To say mildly lol. It's insanity in all it's glory

Once again Chris Wraight nails Russ's perception down perfectly as Russ even states to one of his sons that he has only ever been beaten by two of his brothers and neither of them are Angron. The sheer arrogance and rationality of how Russ saw that fight shows us exactly what he thought about it.

Clearly he did not expect it to go as far as it did, but also that in his eyes, and other forumites he did not lose just retreated. Whilst in Angrons and again other forumites he did lose and got a proper beat down.

But for me what I took away from that was that I hardly think any other primarch would have ever had the audacity and balls to try and reign in Angron, this is a guy who is clearly dangerous, unstable, psychotic and has survived by winning gladiatorial fights for his entire life for the sport of others and yet Russ stands up to him any way, now that's either brave or stupid, either way he did do it.

For me it was not about the fight but the fact this event happened in the first place, which was sheer crazy. As a Vlka Fenryka and world Eater fan The night of the wolf for me was a great hidden gem from the Horus Heresy and displayed both legions against each other perfectly. Kudos to ADB for depicting it so well

Depends on the views. For some - that's not so.

[bluntblade]

hmm, I think it boils down to how people react to other people, you always assume they will react as you expect, but if they have a mental illness then you really have no idea how they will react.

After what happened in my backpacker hostel over the last few months, I can attest to this.

[DarKnight]

When Angron was found wounded by the slavers he was nursed back to health and immediately received the bio-neural implants. At least that's how it reads in the World Eaters Index Astartes article. So here Angron's pre-nails life would have been roaming the wilderness or smaller communities on that world, until he was attacked by some Eldar, which left him in the wounded state he was later discovered in.

Laurie has stated (in one of these threads) that Index Astartes is no longer canon (though I hope it is reprinted anyway!)

[Mellow]

I've already told you with quotes. Angron was a thespian prior to the nails.

[Legatus]

 

When Angron was found wounded by the slavers he was nursed back to health and immediately received the bio-neural implants. At least that's how it reads in the World Eaters Index Astartes article. So here Angron's pre-nails life would have been roaming the wilderness or smaller communities on that world, until he was attacked by some Eldar, which left him in the wounded state he was later discovered in.

Laurie has stated (in one of these threads) that Index Astartes is no longer canon (though I hope it is reprinted anyway!)

 

 

What, the whole thing is declared invalid in it's entirety? Even things that haven't been adressed in any other publication? The details about the Chapters' gene-seed and beliefs in the 41st millennium and the youth of the Primarchs? What about the descriptions of what the Chapters had done immediately after the Heresy, like their Scouring campaigns or troubles rebuilding? Are the details about the Iron Cage incident no longer canon, or the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists' decade long campaign to destroy the Iron Warriors worlds? Are Ultramarines recruits no longer considered to receive military training from the age of 6 onward?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

When Angron was found wounded by the slavers he was nursed back to health and immediately received the bio-neural implants. At least that's how it reads in the World Eaters Index Astartes article. So here Angron's pre-nails life would have been roaming the wilderness or smaller communities on that world, until he was attacked by some Eldar, which left him in the wounded state he was later discovered in.

Laurie has stated (in one of these threads) that Index Astartes is no longer canon (though I hope it is reprinted anyway!)

What, the whole thing is declared invalid in it's entirety? Even things that haven't been adressed in any other publication? The details about the Chapters' gene-seed and beliefs in the 41st millennium and the youth of the Primarchs? What about the descriptions of what the Chapters had done immediately after the Heresy, like their Scouring campaigns or troubles rebuilding? Are the details about the Iron Cage incident no longer canon, or the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists' decade long campaign to destroy the Iron Warriors worlds? Are Ultramarines recruits no longer considered to receive military training from the age of 6 onward?

Hey I'm totally fine with the Iron Cage going away :D

[Scribe]

Yeah I cant (or dont want to) accept anything NOT contradicted in from the IA's, going away. Same as I will refer to Realms of Chaos, until its gone.

 

(The Emperor is made of Shaman!!)

[bluntblade]

A line has sprung out at me regarding the Night of the Wolf - Lorgar considers it debatable who had the higher body count. So, following from that, is Angron's memory and perception skewed by the Nails? We see that he doesn't care about the Conqueror's crew getting massacred - if he kills and the Nails reward him by alleviating the pain, do they also obscure adversity in his mind? Perhaps those glorious victories on Nuceria seemed that way simply because he was killing, and killing makes everything seem ok.

[Legatus]

I don't think it was the World Eaters having the greater amount of kills that Lorgar was questioning, it was more Angrons claim that having killed more Wolves was of importance. To Lorgar, the World Eaters killing more Wolves did not matter that much because the Space Wolves still achieved their objective of surrounding and threatening the enemy commander, while the Wolrd Eaters on the other hand fought without much coordination, even completely ignoring their own Primarchs, as they are "used to Angron fighting alone".

Russ was kind of demonstrating what a Legion could accomplish if they all acted together as a team. Although that point was not very succinctly made when he was the one crawling away from Angron and the Wolves were being torn apart by the World Eaters. Primarchs more sophisticated than Angron could have just as easily failed to take note of that point.

[Felix Antipodes]

 

Noting that a timeline document exists (as mentioned above) can you explain why GW has decided to remove exact dates from the timeline snippets in recent codices and supplements? Or is this also a holdover from "the bad times" when GW didn't play nice with it's little brothers?

 

Well, it would be inappropriate for me to comment directly on that with any authority... But, I believe the writers and editors in the Studio couldn't keep track of everything that had been written for 40k, and some of it was inherently contradictory.

 

Whereas BL's solution was to appoint someone to be in charge of making this stuff make sense and making sure everyone stuck to it, the Studio must have decided it wasn't worth the effort, perhaps? In fairness, we're talking about 9,000 years of timeline, with 90% of it in the last 100 years.

 

All I have to do is maintain about 1,000 years, with most of the focus on 14 of them.

 

Horses for courses, and all that.

Thanks for the reply, especially since the question wasn't really within your purview to answer. Maybe they should have reached out to the fans; I know several who make lists of all the timeline scraps that have appeared. May as well make use of their obsession ;-)

[b1soul]

Exactly. It's really, really not.

 

That's like saying the "Would you like to know more?" videos from 'Starship Troopers' are an accurate representation of the history and politics of the war against the Bugs...

Hawser, as a skald, is essentially a SW propagandist

 

To me, it has always been abundantly clear that in PB, the SW actively foster a scary reputation to cow their enemies

[bluntblade]

Lorgar's main thrust is that kills aren't the important factor, but I think his "that too was debatable" was in response to Angron's boast about the body count. It's not in answer to "we killed more, therefore we won," it's in answer to "there were more dead wolves than World Eaters".

[HeritorA]

hmm, I think it boils down to how people react to other people, you always assume they will react as you expect, but if they have a mental illness then you really have no idea how they will react.

After what happened in my backpacker hostel over the last few months, I can attest to this.

wow, that's the story in itself. You could create an amazing story from that

Lorgar's main thrust is that kills aren't the important factor, but I think his "that too was debatable" was in response to Angron's boast about the body count. It's not in answer to "we killed more, therefore we won," it's in answer to "there were more dead wolves than World Eaters".

Due to the Angron sick logic you can't compete with that

[LaurieJGoulding]

 

 

Laurie has stated (in one of these threads) that Index Astartes is no longer canon (though I hope it is reprinted anyway!)

 

 

What, the whole thing is declared invalid in it's entirety? Even things that haven't been adressed in any other publication? The details about the Chapters' gene-seed and beliefs in the 41st millennium and the youth of the Primarchs? What about the descriptions of what the Chapters had done immediately after the Heresy, like their Scouring campaigns or troubles rebuilding? Are the details about the Iron Cage incident no longer canon, or the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists' decade long campaign to destroy the Iron Warriors worlds? Are Ultramarines recruits no longer considered to receive military training from the age of 6 onward?

 

 

Settle down. Apply logic, people.

 

I will give my thoughts on canon/the hierarchy of facts in Warhammer in a video blog soon. Suffice to say for now, where a newer publication contradicts an older one, you have to accept the new one or look for a reason WHY there's a contradiction. There's often a story in there, too.

 

If a morsel of content was not changed or re-presented in a newer version of the background, then you can assume that the old bit is still true, as long as it doesn't mess with anything else. But don't parade around like the word of the frickin' gods, because it's not. (Case in point, is Anval Thawn still canon, and still a Perpetual? Yes. He's just not in the current Codex.)

 

However, the Index Astartes articles themselves have mostly been replaced in the A-canon by Forge World and Black Library publications. Stuff like Angron being attacked by eldar is still actually referenced in 'Butcher's Nails', for example - so actually, that's an example of something that HAS been reiterated in a newer product.

[Legatus]

Lorgar's main thrust is that kills aren't the important factor, but I think his "that too was debatable" was in response to Angron's boast about the body count. It's not in answer to "we killed more, therefore we won," it's in answer to "there were more dead wolves than World Eaters".

 

 

‘You didn’t answer Russ’s question,’ he said. ‘Did you truly learn nothing from that fight?’

Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’

‘No.’ Lorgar was almost breathless in disbelief. ‘No, no, no. Angron, you stubborn fool. None of that matters.’

‘There were more dead Wolves on that field than dead World Eaters. That matters.’

That, thought Lorgar, was also arguable, but he let it pass. ‘Russ had you cold. You said you had him at your mercy, but he crawled free.’

 

The sceptical remark is following both of them making statements on what "matters". Lorgar states that Angron refusing Russ does not matter. Angron states that having killed more Wolves than they have killed World Eaters does matter.