Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[Mellow]

If a morsel of content was not changed or re-presented in a newer version of the background, then you can assume that the old bit is still true

Yippee, The Emperor is still made up of thousands of Shaman souls :D

[LaurieJGoulding]

Unless another book says he's not, that can definitely be taken as "a possible backstory".

 

But the moment something else definitively contradicts it, you HAVE to accept that it is no longer canon.

[Mellow]

I love "possible" ... it's all possible. Besides, killing your uncle with psychic powers who killed your dad doesn't invalidate the creation of an uber soul.

[Legatus]

I generally take 1st Edition sources with a heavy dose of salt, since the 40K universe was still very much "under construction" back then, and massive elements of the background were re-shuffled and worked over nearing 2nd Edition. In the Rogue Trader rulebook there wasn't yet the concept of the Chaos Gods, and the dangerous warp entities that threatened to take over rogue psykers' minds were things like Enslavers and Psychneuein (huge warp-wasps that like to lay their warp-eggs into the minds of psykers). The Heresy and the First Founding were gradually developed, and the Chapters that were part of it were changed around. Space Marines already were genetically enhanced, but not to the degree they are now, and they still had normal human life-spans (Marneus Calgar was described to have essentially retired around 80 years old).

The universe that was established with 2nd Edition was very different from the early days of 1st Edition. The changes from 2nd to 7th Edition have been fairly minor in comparison, and usually revolve around individual details of a particular Chapter.

 

During the run of 1st Edition, the Ultramarines at various points were considered a 3rd Founding Chapter (as were the Space Wolves), then a 1st Founding Chapter, having close ties to the Adeptus mechanicus and a larger than usual amount of heavy support weaponry, having fought in the Tyrannic Wars for thousands of years (the first dating back seven thousand years), having only just won the right to erect their base on the world Macragge, and having a half-eldar Astropath among their ranks.

They were described as strictly adhering to the Codex Astartes from very early on, even before the Codex Astartes was attributed to Roboute Guilliman (which it only has been since 2nd Edition). In 1st Edition, the two Primarchs noted first as having contributed to the Codex Astartes had been Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Imagine that!

[HeritorA]

Imagine that!

We did! Tis was 'interesting' to say at least :)

[Dantay VI]

 

 

 

Laurie has stated (in one of these threads) that Index Astartes is no longer canon (though I hope it is reprinted anyway!)

 

 

What, the whole thing is declared invalid in it's entirety? Even things that haven't been adressed in any other publication? The details about the Chapters' gene-seed and beliefs in the 41st millennium and the youth of the Primarchs? What about the descriptions of what the Chapters had done immediately after the Heresy, like their Scouring campaigns or troubles rebuilding? Are the details about the Iron Cage incident no longer canon, or the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists' decade long campaign to destroy the Iron Warriors worlds? Are Ultramarines recruits no longer considered to receive military training from the age of 6 onward?

 

 

Settle down. Apply logic, people.

 

I will give my thoughts on canon/the hierarchy of facts in Warhammer in a video blog soon. Suffice to say for now, where a newer publication contradicts an older one, you have to accept the new one or look for a reason WHY there's a contradiction. There's often a story in there, too.

 

If a morsel of content was not changed or re-presented in a newer version of the background, then you can assume that the old bit is still true, as long as it doesn't mess with anything else. But don't parade around like the word of the frickin' gods, because it's not. (Case in point, is Anval Thawn still canon, and still a Perpetual? Yes. He's just not in the current Codex.)

 

However, the Index Astartes articles themselves have mostly been replaced in the A-canon by Forge World and Black Library publications. Stuff like Angron being attacked by eldar is still actually referenced in 'Butcher's Nails', for example - so actually, that's an example of something that HAS been reiterated in a newer product.

 

 

So by your logic...

 

Older canon states that Space Wolves had the 3rd highest number of conquests behind the Dark Angels and Sons of Horus, which bugged Russ as he is a competitive person.

 

IF FW do as has been suggested in Inferno, and flat out change this to " the Space Wolves had relatively few conquests during the great crusade"

 

Then we just what have to accept what is in Inferno because it is newer?

[Scribe]

Correct.

[Sete]

Like all lore. Old is supplanted by new.

Whether we like it or not.

[Legatus]

Older canon states that Space Wolves had the 3rd highest number of conquests behind the Dark Angels and Sons of Horus, which bugged Russ as he is a competitive person.

 

Victories, not conquests. The distinction may seem pedantic until you consider that the same era canon also stated that the Ultramarines had conquered the most worlds out of all the Legions.

 

Having more victories but fewer conquests is possible since every destroyed alien world or enemy fleet and every defended Imperial world is another victory, but not another world conquered for the glorious Imperium of mankind. The Space Wolves were allways described as a very active Legion, fighting at the forefront of the Great Crusade, but maybe they prioritized wiping out alien civilisations or quashing rebellions on Imperial worlds over locating and liberating new ones.

 

Sadly the Ultramarines' claim to having conquered the most worlds (as repeated in the 7th Edition 40K rulebook, not just from old 2nd Edition) is already called into question in 'HH5: Tempest'. It is not contradicted per se, just phrased much less definitively and with room for doubt.

 

So the Space Wolves not having conquered a lot of worlds would not technically be a retcon, but it certainly is a bit unexpected in light of their previously described great number of victories.

[Dantay VI]

IF true, then so much for maintaining any form of consistency between GW, FW & BL.

Unless Alan Blight has a particularly compelling argument for ripping up existing lore, is another reason Space Wolves fans feel really mis-treated, long list of losses, help from all quarters and their canonical history rewritten to remove a lot of their glory.

I already fear for Wolves canon when Blight quotes the "Wolves will be significantly different from their 40K counterparts" and "they have not evolved much over the great crusade"

Btw sometimes newer isnt always better. Ask the Iron Hands

I will sa though that I have enjoyed a lot of the HH stuff that has come from the BL, and Laurie has done an admirable job of keeping things broadly on track.

I hope that whoever takes over can keep up with the massive task they are inheriting from LG

[b1soul]

re angron beating russ in a fight, it's interesting that russ still believes without hesitation that he can beat angron (his quote in VS

Most primarchs are like elite athletes...in their view, victory is always within reach

 

I agree with Russ...he "can" beat any primarch. I just don't like his odds 1 v 1 against the primarch whose sole specialization is 1 v 1 gladiatorial combat and the primarch whose supposed to be the best of the best

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

Laurie has stated (in one of these threads) that Index Astartes is no longer canon (though I hope it is reprinted anyway!)

 

 

What, the whole thing is declared invalid in it's entirety? Even things that haven't been adressed in any other publication? The details about the Chapters' gene-seed and beliefs in the 41st millennium and the youth of the Primarchs? What about the descriptions of what the Chapters had done immediately after the Heresy, like their Scouring campaigns or troubles rebuilding? Are the details about the Iron Cage incident no longer canon, or the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists' decade long campaign to destroy the Iron Warriors worlds? Are Ultramarines recruits no longer considered to receive military training from the age of 6 onward?

 

 

Settle down. Apply logic, people.

 

I will give my thoughts on canon/the hierarchy of facts in Warhammer in a video blog soon. Suffice to say for now, where a newer publication contradicts an older one, you have to accept the new one or look for a reason WHY there's a contradiction. There's often a story in there, too.

 

If a morsel of content was not changed or re-presented in a newer version of the background, then you can assume that the old bit is still true, as long as it doesn't mess with anything else. But don't parade around like the word of the frickin' gods, because it's not. (Case in point, is Anval Thawn still canon, and still a Perpetual? Yes. He's just not in the current Codex.)

 

However, the Index Astartes articles themselves have mostly been replaced in the A-canon by Forge World and Black Library publications. Stuff like Angron being attacked by eldar is still actually referenced in 'Butcher's Nails', for example - so actually, that's an example of something that HAS been reiterated in a newer product.

 

 

So by your logic...

 

Older canon states that Space Wolves had the 3rd highest number of conquests behind the Dark Angels and Sons of Horus, which bugged Russ as he is a competitive person.

 

IF FW do as has been suggested in Inferno, and flat out change this to " the Space Wolves had relatively few conquests during the great crusade"

 

Then we just what have to accept what is in Inferno because it is newer?

 

 

"your logic" in this case just sounds an awful lot like "logic"

 

 

 

re angron beating russ in a fight, it's interesting that russ still believes without hesitation that he can beat angron (his quote in VS

Most primarchs are like elite athletes...in their view, victory is always within reach

 

I agree with Russ...he "can" beat any primarch. I just don't like his odds 1 v 1 against the primarch whose sole specialization is 1 v 1 gladiatorial combat and the primarch whose supposed to be the best of the best

 

 

i might be thick, but i don't automatically see that as an advantage. the primarchs that grew up fighting on feral worlds potentially faced threats as grueling as a gladiatorial arena.

 

i don't know if its been touched on, but were the gladiatorial opponents that angron faced that much of a challenge? they would have to be superior to an astartes or custodes to give angron a run or he would have to be handicapped in order to make it much of a show. or maybe there's another option that i'm missing, but i assume he wasn't used to fighting gladiators on russ' level.

 

not to mention that even primarchs who had fairly pacifist existences pre discovery could very quickly develop into singular warriors, fulgrim did.

[bluntblade]

I think Angron's opponents were typically kitted out with cybernetics

[mc warhammer]

I think Angron's opponents were typically kitted out with cybernetics

 

makes sense, but how easy is it to produce cyborgs on par with a primarch? genuine question, as i don't know the extent of humanity's capabilities in 30k with or without stc machines. i haven't seen anything that can stand up to a space marine, let alone a primarch.

[Legatus]

I doubt that Angron was just fighting human slaves. His masters had the technology to contain a Primarch, so they probably got an entire roster of alien horrors and mechanical death machines to pit the gladiators against.

[mc warhammer]

I doubt that Angron was just fighting human slaves. His masters had the technology to contain a Primarch, so they probably got an entire roster of alien horrors and mechanical death machines to pit the gladiators against.

 

no doubt, but they did catch him quote young, right? it could be like the story of the adult elephant that is contained by the same peg from childhood, despite the fact the elephant has grown much stronger with age.

 

so far i've seen maybe an ork  and greater daemons cause primarchs to break a sweat so i don't know how big this roster of horrors could be. i'm sure we could get creative here, but in the end, i'm not convinced that whatever experience angron got from his gladiator days automatically trumps another primarch's experience or prepares him for a one on one with someone who is more or less his equal in terms of power and intellect. 

[helterskelter]

 

 

I think Angron's opponents were typically kitted out with cybernetics

makes sense, but how easy is it to produce cyborgs on par with a primarch? genuine question, as i don't know the extent of humanity's capabilities in 30k with or without stc machines. i haven't seen anything that can stand up to a space marine, let alone a primarch.

Don't fib, there was an ork that nearly killed the emperor, the megarachnid gave everyone a hard time, a whole species that horus thought better than to fight (initially, I can't remember if he went back later to sort them out once he fell)

The quietude needed a space station thrown at them first. These enemies weren't easy and caused not a nice number of casualties

[mc warhammer]

 

 

I think Angron's opponents were typically kitted out with cybernetics

makes sense, but how easy is it to produce cyborgs on par with a primarch? genuine question, as i don't know the extent of humanity's capabilities in 30k with or without stc machines. i haven't seen anything that can stand up to a space marine, let alone a primarch.

Don't fib, there was an ork that nearly killed the emperor, the megarachnid gave everyone a hard time, a whole species that horus thought better than to fight (initially, I can't remember if he went back later to sort them out once he fell)

The quietude needed a space station thrown at them first. These enemies weren't easy and caused not a nice number of casualties

 

 

i wouldn't dare fib this close to xmas! which is why i asked the question ( i might simply not have read as many books or codices or what have you as the rest of this board). even so, that's two examples. i'm just trying to imagine how they would have kept angron challenged on the reg.

 

i'm trying my best to remember the visit to angron's planet- were they a space faring culture? was it easy for them to come by dozens or hundreds of primarch class combatants that they could subdue? did they seem to have this sort of overwhelming tech or power?

 

edit: i'm happy to handwave it away, i don't really care that much. but i also don't think it should be used as hard evidence for angron's superior fighting ability.

[Legatus]

The world was described as "technologically advanced" in the World Eaters Index Astarets article. Their arenas had thousands of "cyber-gladiators", and the nails themselves were described as relics from the Dark Age of Technology.

[Dantay VI]

 

 

 

 

 

Laurie has stated (in one of these threads) that Index Astartes is no longer canon (though I hope it is reprinted anyway!)

 

 

What, the whole thing is declared invalid in it's entirety? Even things that haven't been adressed in any other publication? The details about the Chapters' gene-seed and beliefs in the 41st millennium and the youth of the Primarchs? What about the descriptions of what the Chapters had done immediately after the Heresy, like their Scouring campaigns or troubles rebuilding? Are the details about the Iron Cage incident no longer canon, or the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists' decade long campaign to destroy the Iron Warriors worlds? Are Ultramarines recruits no longer considered to receive military training from the age of 6 onward?

 

 

Settle down. Apply logic, people.

 

I will give my thoughts on canon/the hierarchy of facts in Warhammer in a video blog soon. Suffice to say for now, where a newer publication contradicts an older one, you have to accept the new one or look for a reason WHY there's a contradiction. There's often a story in there, too.

 

If a morsel of content was not changed or re-presented in a newer version of the background, then you can assume that the old bit is still true, as long as it doesn't mess with anything else. But don't parade around like the word of the frickin' gods, because it's not. (Case in point, is Anval Thawn still canon, and still a Perpetual? Yes. He's just not in the current Codex.)

 

However, the Index Astartes articles themselves have mostly been replaced in the A-canon by Forge World and Black Library publications. Stuff like Angron being attacked by eldar is still actually referenced in 'Butcher's Nails', for example - so actually, that's an example of something that HAS been reiterated in a newer product.

 

 

So by your logic...

 

Older canon states that Space Wolves had the 3rd highest number of conquests behind the Dark Angels and Sons of Horus, which bugged Russ as he is a competitive person.

 

IF FW do as has been suggested in Inferno, and flat out change this to " the Space Wolves had relatively few conquests during the great crusade"

 

Then we just what have to accept what is in Inferno because it is newer?

 

 

"your logic" in this case just sounds an awful lot like "logic"

 

 

 

 

not to mention that even primarchs who had fairly pacifist existences pre discovery could very quickly develop into singular warriors, fulgrim did.

 

 

Meh, Nah... I'll just say the new canon is just someone else's viewpoint of the history of the Wolves skewed for reasons by Inquisitor AK and decide which of the "canon" I would prefer to follow.

 

Btw what does Angoron fighting in the pits have to do with Weregeld?

[LaurieJGoulding]

 

Meh, Nah... I'll just say the new canon is just someone else's viewpoint of the history of the Wolves skewed for reasons by Inquisitor AK and decide which of the "canon" I would prefer to follow.

 

 

Apart from your use of "Inquisitor", I would agree with this 100%.

 

The question is... why would he write that? Therein lies the story.

[Mellow]

i'm not convinced that whatever experience angron got from his gladiator days automatically trumps another primarch's experience or prepares him for a one on one with someone who is more or less his equal in terms of power and intellect.

It does. Every contest was to the death. Most other Primarchs had very cosy lives where they could train without fear of serious injury.

[Runefyre]

 

i'm not convinced that whatever experience angron got from his gladiator days automatically trumps another primarch's experience or prepares him for a one on one with someone who is more or less his equal in terms of power and intellect.

It does. Every contest was to the death. Most other Primarchs had very cosy lives where they could train without fear of serious injury.

 

Most certainly not Russ.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

i'm not convinced that whatever experience angron got from his gladiator days automatically trumps another primarch's experience or prepares him for a one on one with someone who is more or less his equal in terms of power and intellect.

It does. Every contest was to the death. Most other Primarchs had very cosy lives where they could train without fear of serious injury.

Lion El'Jonson: Death World with no family or formal training until he was an adolescent

Fulgrim: Found on a world with almost no water and only Fulgrims genius turned it into a decent place to live.

Perturabo: Constantly earring city states in mountainous highlands with few resources

Khan: Lived in a nomadic society of horse master that slept outside exposed to the elements with only a yurt to protect them

Leman Russ: Death World that's always below freezing and has literal monsters everywhere

Dorn: Another Death World where it's always below freezing and everyone must live underground

Kurze: Was so hungry as a kid he ate people

Sanguinius: Lived in a rad soaked wasteland filled with scorpions and mutant cannibals

Ferrus Manus: Death World covered in evil robots

Angron: Gladiator with death machine in his brain

Guilliman: spent age 6 onwards in military school and fought a brutal counter insurgency against Illyrian rebels

Mortarion: death world where the air is poison

Magnus: Paradise world with brain eating wasps attacking the cities

Horus: Death world filled with brutal mining clans and constant warfare

Vulcan: Death world covered in lava. Oh, and DRAGONS. Like a hot skyrim.

Corax: raised a slave and fought a brutal rebellion where he used nuclear weapons ON A CIVILIAN target

Alpharius: No one knows, but I'm sure it sucked

 

Lots of cozy lifestyles there