Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[LaurieJGoulding]

Don't quote rumour-mongers like they are real people...

 

And Andrey, settle down. As I've told you about nine times, a novel is anything 40,000 words or longer. 'The Beast Arises' and 'The Primarchs' were commissioned at 50,000 words, and most of them are about 10% longer, give or take. 'The Horus Heresy' tends to be 90,000+ but there are exceptions: 'Tallarn: Ironclad', 'The Honoured', 'The Unburdened', 'Sons of the Forge'. Cost of production has LITERALLY nothing to do with these decisions, so hush up and eat your vegetables.

 

Now, every time you complain about book length, I'm going to get Dan to add another week onto his writing time for 'The Warmaster'...

[Mellow]

Well I'll just buy the books until the series is finished and enjoy them for what they are. Simples.

[RedFurioso]

The interesting thing is that the Horus and Alpharius were both mentioned in Weregeld's Dramatis Personae section, though they don't appear in the story itself.

[Arkangilos]

Don't quote rumour-mongers like they are real people...

They are real people, and when they are right, there is nothing wrong with quoting them.

[Lemanbus]

Looking forward to a throw down with Russ and Horus, got me thinking about the old big four (the Lion,The Angel, Roboute and Russ himself) they really haven't set the world alight in fights with their brothers. With the Lion the only one holding a really decisive victory over a brother (Curze).  Whilst some of the lesser thought of loyal  brothers have had some meaty showings - corax v lorgar, khan v morty, vulkan v curze (VL) and dorn v alpharius. Not a critique as such more a random musing.

[DarkChaplain]

Don't quote rumour-mongers like they are real people...

 

And Andrey, settle down. As I've told you about nine times, a novel is anything 40,000 words or longer. 'The Beast Arises' and 'The Primarchs' were commissioned at 50,000 words, and most of them are about 10% longer, give or take. 'The Horus Heresy' tends to be 90,000+ but there are exceptions: 'Tallarn: Ironclad', 'The Honoured', 'The Unburdened', 'Sons of the Forge'. Cost of production has LITERALLY nothing to do with these decisions, so hush up and eat your vegetables.

 

Now, every time you complain about book length, I'm going to get Dan to add another week onto his writing time for 'The Warmaster'...

 

I might have to make a twitter bot just to have it complain on loop. I might call it Heritobot or somesuch in honor of its spiritual mentor.

 

Honestly, if the rumors of SoH at Prospero are false, I'll be bloody cheerful about it. That was one change that I couldn't stand and made clear I hated when it first popped up on the forum.

 

As for story length, I've also commented about that before: Every story deserves the time it needs to be told in a satisfying and complete way, but shouldn't have to aspire to reach an arbitrary wordcount just to fluff out the book's spine. If the story is best told as a novella, that's good. If it needs to have 400 pages, great! If it can get by in 200-250, I'm good there too.

 

My stumbling points are pricepoint, it has to suit the format/length. I still haven't picked up prints of The Honoured and The Unburdened because they're as expensive as a regular trade HH book, while about half as long, for example. It is a bit of a fallacy, but it is easier to justify a 400 page novel to yourself compared to a 200-250 page one, when the prices are basically the same, even if the 200 pager may be more consistent and to the point without unnecessary fluff. The 400 pager's spine also looks more satisfying on the shelf..

 

Either way, I just hope that BL will allow for more flexibility in the future. I just read Josh Reynolds talking about his writing progress on a novel and being 10k words over already, for example, and it still needing some work here and there. As long as the editors are giving their okay with a novel needing a few dozen more pages to really shine, I don't care if the average length is going down elsewhere. Not all stories are fit for the same word count, and if every bit had to be expanded to fit it, we would be lacking quite a lot of gems over the years.

[Runefyre]

Looking forward to a throw down with Russ and Horus, got me thinking about the old big four (the Lion,The Angel, Roboute and Russ himself) they really haven't set the world alight in fights with their brothers. With the Lion the only one holding a really decisive victory over a brother (Curze).  Whilst some of the lesser thought of loyal  brothers have had some meaty showings - corax v lorgar, khan v morty, vulkan v curze (VL) and dorn v alpharius. Not a critique as such more a random musing.

Russ would have killed Magnus if it weren't for Tzeentch. I would definitely call Russ v Magnus a decisive (but highly contested) victory for Russ.

 

@DarkChaplain: I agree on the pricepoint. I bought The Honoured 'cause I enjoy a good Ultramarines romp, but found that the content belies the pricepoint. Not that it's a bad book, not at all.

[DarkChaplain]

I was pretty lukewarm on The Honoured, but The Unburdened was great. They go well together, but Unburdened had more meat in my eyes, but they really should be enjoyed in tandem to get the full picture. I was expecting a bundled paperback release as a numbered entry, before they went trade paperback individually.

[Marshal Rohr]

Is Atia not a people?

[mc warhammer]

 

a "perfect blow"; i don't know if there's that many degrees of difference between an astartes and a primarch in judging that. there's not really perfect and perfecter and more perfect.

there might be a huge difference in the ability to execute one, but simply judging one when you behold it? i feel like space marine's enhancements and training might be pretty reliable in that regard.

There is no "perfecter than perfect", but that's not the issue really

 

I think you'd have to break it down a bit more. The key issues seem to be

 

1. What does "perfect" mean in this context?

 

I think it means more than..."technically perfect" or "with perfect form"

 

I think, in this context, it means "guaranteed to kill Dorn"

 

2. Did Archamus correctly judge the blow to be a guaranteed kill-blow against Dorn?

 

That sort of judgment would involve split-second mental calculations after correctly eyeballing distance, speed, angle, and correctly assessing Dorn's ability (or inability) to react and Dorn's durability

 

Frankly, I find it a bit strange to conclude that Archamus' judgment, coloured by his fear and concern for his primarch, must definitely without a doubt be correct.

 

3. Was Dorn oblivious to the coming blow (caught completely off-guard)?

 

This would relate to Dorn's ability to anticipate the blow...and would be why I bring up Dorn's intelligence relative to Archamus'

 

It's not hard to imagine that Dorn anticipates the blow before Archamus becomes aware of it...however, Dorn doesn't react as Archamus would (try to avoid it), which causes Archamus to panic and rush to Dorn's aid

 

We know that Dorn ends up stepping into the deflected blow, apparently intentionally...this move would've been rather odd if Dorn had completely failed to anticipate the blow and attempt a counter

 

A possibility is that Dorn was planning to tank the blow somewhere to his torso, a risky move...but when Archamus intervened, he was able to tank the blow, almost harmlessly, with his shoulder. In this case, Archamus' effort would still be meaningful and "heroic"

 

All that said, it's also possible that Dorn was guaranteed to die if Archamus failed to reach his side. I just don't think French's text supports that degree of certainty.

 

4. By how much did Archamus deflect the blow?

 

It's not objectively clear how big of a difference Archamus made...

 

Maybe Dorn intended to draw out Alpharius' blow and before trying to catch it with his shoulder. Absent Archamus' intervention, Dorn may not have been able to move fast enough and the plan may have backfired.

 

However, Archamus ended up deflecting the blow toward Dorn's shoulder and meaningfully helped to reduce the risk to Dorn. Again, in this case, Archamus' effort would still be heroic.

 

This is just off the top of my head. I fully acknowledge the possibility that Dorn might have died without the aid of his old huscarl. I just don't agree with it being certain.

ok, so i'm playing devil's here

 

1. sure, i can go with that. you could say that where such precise and uber creatures as primarchs are concerned that the "killing blow" would often be "technically perfect" too.

 

2. this needs to be measured against what the ability of astartes to make "split-second mental calculations after correctly eyeballing distance, speed, angle" is and what their rate of success vs failure would be. we know that they have a trans-human or super human ability to do so.

 

when taking into account that there aren't degrees of perfect, once one is capable of judging such a thing then no further enhancement is needed. a fighting move is bound by physics. so, could we say that astartes, custodes, primarchs and thunder warriors all have the necessary perception? the stuff i've read to this point doesn't contradict that idea.

 

as for a space marine's martial judgement being clouded by concern for their primarch- what examples do we have of this? loken and the other lunar wolves being overcome with grief at horus' near fatal injury and stomping on innocent humans is the closest i can recall. and even then, their ability to perceive in the context of battle wasn't impaired, they simply disrgarded human safety.

 

3 and 4. all possibilities, but also all conjecture. if the text is written to be ambiguous, there are usually clues (e.g archamus' judgement regarding combat has been shown as faulty or heavily biased in the lead up)

 

i do understand your argument that a character pov is instantly suspect in many regards but i also understand that in order for the moment to have the expected pathos, the "perfect blow" that is averted at the last second would be taken at face value.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Lady Atia is a dude. EVERYTHING you have been told is a lie.

[Marshal Rohr]

I guess there are no women on the internet.

[Kelborn]

I'll take your post with sarcasm, Laurie, 'cause regardless of gender or whatsoever, Atia provided us with the right amount of information to get us hyped enough until we can't wait for new releases. Therefore, yes, I'll keep trusting him / her.

 

@Rohr:

There are no women on the internet like there are no Wolves of Fenris, aye? ;)

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Just women. .......with weenies

 

Sorry, inappropriate coment mode deactived.

[Arkangilos]

-not important-

[caladancid]

I guess this whole thing explains how the Wolves only had one successor following the Heresy.

[Mellow]

Incompatible gene seed and an inability to survive?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Never understood the faulty gene seed stuff. The primarch was never given the k9 helix so why do the bearers of his gene seed need/require it?

[Mellow]

I'm sure I read somewhere that successors from other planets failed to mature or something.

[Biscuittzz]

I guess this whole thing explains how the Wolves only had one successor following the Heresy.

 

I think it was more to do with Russ' refusal to break up the SW and 'give in' to Guilliman, rather than the SW being very few in number. The fact that the Codex was passed in the first place is less to do with his fellow Primarchs actually agreeing with him and more so that the 200,000 or so ultramarines at his back had a lot of leverage over the few thousand of the Sallies, RG and IH. I'm guessing the WS, IF, and BA were similarly mauled after the siege.

 

A good amount of literature could be written about these events and I'm hoping it shows that the Primarchs have some sort of distaste for Guilliman and his tenets. 

[Nazguire]

 

Keep in mind that Horus having turned wasn't a thing yet to the Wolves by the time they went to Prospero. ForgeWorld apparently also added a contingent of Sons of Horus to the Wolves' forces at Prospero (which isn't reflected in the novels).

Yet another nail of the coffin of the Space Wolves legacy (or lack of one). The one thing they're known for in the Heresy, and they are becoming more and more marginalized and belittled.

 

 

 

Not even close to being marginalised or belittled.

 

The Space Wolves and Leman Russ formed the main part of the attack, they lead the attack, and it was Russ and the Space Wolves who took the brunt of the attack and defeated the Thousand Sons.

Having supporting Army, Titan, Sisters and other ancillary elements makes sense. The Space Wolves committed their Legion in full (or close enough to it) - a company of Sons of Horus and a few Custodes and Sisters of Silence doesn't detract from that. Rather, it just completes the campaign as something more believable.

[caladancid]

 

I guess this whole thing explains how the Wolves only had one successor following the Heresy.

 

I think it was more to do with Russ' refusal to break up the SW and 'give in' to Guilliman, rather than the SW being very few in number. The fact that the Codex was passed in the first place is less to do with his fellow Primarchs actually agreeing with him and more so that the 200,000 or so ultramarines at his back had a lot of leverage over the few thousand of the Sallies, RG and IH. I'm guessing the WS, IF, and BA were similarly mauled after the siege.

 

A good amount of literature could be written about these events and I'm hoping it shows that the Primarchs have some sort of distaste for Guilliman and his tenets. 

 

 

I used to think it was what you said, but given that Weregild describes a practically destroyed legion, it seems more like they just didn't have anyone left. Could be a mix of both I suppose.

[Marshal Rohr]

There were only 23,000 Ultramarines left at the end of the Heresy...

[Biscuittzz]

There were only 23,000 Ultramarines left at the end of the Heresy...

Legion numbers are retconned constantly, didn't they only have 10,000 each or so in Horus Rising, False Gods etc?

I've never seen that number before, where did you find it said? I'm not condescending I'm actually interested.

I think the take-home message is that the UM had more than double/triple the amount of warriors than the rest of the legions combined by the end of the HH. Granted besides from Calth they did absolutely nothing, but that's because I dislike them. And people say that El'Jonson was waiting to see who won in the end.

[Marshal Rohr]

2nd Edition? Maybe third. Whenever the first release of the second founding fluff was. Ultramarines legion became 23 chapters of 1000. And the legion sizes don't constantly change. They changed one time, over a decade ago in collected visions, and it took a little bit for BL to catch up. I think it was after LG took over they went thru and rewrote all references of 10k Legions to 100k Legions to drive the point home.