Arkangilos Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 2nd Edition? Maybe third. Whenever the first release of the second founding fluff was. Ultramarines legion became 23 chapters of 1000. And the legion sizes don't constantly change. They changed one time, over a decade ago in collected visions, and it took a little bit for BL to catch up. I think it was after LG took over they went thru and rewrote all references of 10k Legions to 100k Legions to drive the point home. They could have created more than 23 but the others have been forgotten, or they could have lose the majority during the scouring before the split. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazguire Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 The 23 Chapters comes from what, 2nd edition? Back then Legions weren't of any kind of defined size, and they were 'thousands' strong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I'm going to err on the side of 23,000 because it doesn't look like any legion had more second founding chapters than the old fluff states. It's pointless to argue about it now because it will be addressed in the future. I just think it's incredibly flippant to assume the Ultramarines were at nearly full strength (especially when Forge World explicitly states casualty figures in Tempest). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 At this point I just want the black library to leave the space wolves alone. I'd rather be ignored then receive such attention Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 At least now there's a valid reason why they didn't make it back in time for the siege. Dark angels reason will be tchulcha, who will conveniently let the night Lords, sevatar and curze escape because destiny. Ultras will pop up right after Horus dies to see off the traitor fleets, with sallies and RG in tow Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Don't get me started on the DA. My two favourites DA and D guard have not lived up to my expectations at all. (Personal comment, not to be taken as an insult to anyone else's good or bad perspective) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 The Imperium would be a better place if the only legion was the Ultramarines. Everyone else is a bit rubbish and has no idea how to empire build. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieJGoulding Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Guilliman was the only one who gave much actual thought to what comes after the Great Crusade. He saw the redundancy of the Legions, and started planning their "retirement" into Ultramar's future... whereas Horus saw the same thing, and decided to kick off a civil war in protest. (With a little persuasion from a magic sword, of course) Are people still complaining about the Space Wolves? Even though it's been canon since the 1980s that they got smashed towards the end of the Heresy and could barely muster one single Successor Chapter by 021.M31? Even the Raven Guard have more legionaries than the SW, at that point. How else did people think they went from being strong enough to smash Prospero, to barely being able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Guilliman was the only one who gave much actual thought to what comes after the Great Crusade. He saw the redundancy of the Legions, and started planning their "retirement" into Ultramar's future... whereas Horus saw the same thing, and decided to kick off a civil war in protest. (With a little persuasion from a magic sword, of course) Are people still complaining about the Space Wolves? Even though it's been canon since the 1980s that they got smashed towards the end of the Heresy and could barely muster one single Successor Chapter by 021.M31? Even the Raven Guard have more legionaries than the SW, at that point. How else did people think they went from being strong enough to smash Prospero, to barely being able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag? absolutely love your analogy My complaints revolve around the fact that the SW's main event in the Heresy (Prospero) showcases them being ineffective and shattering themselves on a legion homeworld that was effectively shut down (no orbital defense stations, Magnus didn't even fight until the end, etc...). With so many exceptions and handicaps to the Tsons side, it makes their "victory" very hollow and subsequent continued defeats made bitter by the fact that they got mauled by a handicapped force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Oh the wolves are truly awful. All their amazing warriors that excel in close combat and they end up getting their butts handed to them by the TSons, the AL and then Horus gives Russ a good kicking too. I don't know why people love them so much. They are underdogs i suppose (woof) but they add nothing of value to the great Crusade :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Guilliman was the only one who gave much actual thought to what comes after the Great Crusade. He saw the redundancy of the Legions, and started planning their "retirement" into Ultramar's future... whereas Horus saw the same thing, and decided to kick off a civil war in protest. (With a little persuasion from a magic sword, of course) Are people still complaining about the Space Wolves? Even though it's been canon since the 1980s that they got smashed towards the end of the Heresy and could barely muster one single Successor Chapter by 021.M31? Even the Raven Guard have more legionaries than the SW, at that point. How else did people think they went from being strong enough to smash Prospero, to barely being able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag? absolutely love your analogy My complaints revolve around the fact that the SW's main event in the Heresy (Prospero) showcases them being ineffective and shattering themselves on a legion homeworld that was effectively shut down (no orbital defense stations, Magnus didn't even fight until the end, etc...). With so many exceptions and handicaps to the Tsons side, it makes their "victory" very hollow and subsequent continued defeats made bitter by the fact that they got mauled by a handicapped force. Unless you've got Inferno in your hands I think you've arrived a little prematurely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Guilliman was the only one who gave much actual thought to what comes after the Great Crusade. He saw the redundancy of the Legions, and started planning their "retirement" into Ultramar's future... whereas Horus saw the same thing, and decided to kick off a civil war in protest. (With a little persuasion from a magic sword, of course) Are people still complaining about the Space Wolves? Even though it's been canon since the 1980s that they got smashed towards the end of the Heresy and could barely muster one single Successor Chapter by 021.M31? Even the Raven Guard have more legionaries than the SW, at that point. How else did people think they went from being strong enough to smash Prospero, to barely being able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag? absolutely love your analogy My complaints revolve around the fact that the SW's main event in the Heresy (Prospero) showcases them being ineffective and shattering themselves on a legion homeworld that was effectively shut down (no orbital defense stations, Magnus didn't even fight until the end, etc...). With so many exceptions and handicaps to the Tsons side, it makes their "victory" very hollow and subsequent continued defeats made bitter by the fact that they got mauled by a handicapped force. Unless you've got Inferno in your hands I think you've arrived a little prematurely. All I've got to work with is the novels, and what I said is the distinct impression I've gotten. I really hope there's more to it than what the novels show. Hopefully Inferno will help. personally I hope it turns into a fief-wide battle, not just Prospero. That could help explain how the SW's fleet got mauled attacking a planet with it's defenses down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Ahriman did eventually turn the defenses on, IIRC which could explain the damage. Then Alaxxes did some more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 The Imperium would be a better place if the only legion was the Ultramarines. Everyone else is a bit rubbish and has no idea how to empire build.Easy there Matt Ward. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 No other legion contributed with stability to as large an area as the smurfs. They are the best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splog Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 However good or however successful the Space Wolves were in the Heresy (and even if they had various advantages smashing Prospero is a pretty big success), they need to have been severely mauled by the end of it. Even if the chapters they get split into are several times bigger than a standard chapter they're a small fraction of their former strength. Regarding Russ' plan to attack Horus... I may be recollecting wrong, but I didn't get the sense that he was planning to take on the main strength of the rebel warmachine. He was planning to kill Horus, and that's a different thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 No other legion contributed with stability to as large an area as the smurfs. They are the best. http://i.imgur.com/9sxHPBx.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Matt wards husband is here everyone. Be nice! He likes blue. On a serious note I love Ultramarines. And all the legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 However good or however successful the Space Wolves were in the Heresy (and even if they had various advantages smashing Prospero is a pretty big success), they need to have been severely mauled by the end of it. To be fair, I don't really see how you can argue the Prospero debacle was a success for the Space Wolves. From their perspective, they failed to kill/stop Magnus, they didn't manage to stop the Thousand Sons (who are there at the Siege of Terra, by the way). And from our perspective it's even worst, for we know they were manipulated by Horus to attack another loyal Legion to get rid of the Thousand Sons or force them to join him. And yes, with Prospero, Alaxxes and Yarant, the Space Wolves didn't have a good time during the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 That's because dogs always trust their master too much. Till they get bitten. I'm so glad the Ultramarines are the saviours of the Imperium. Also. I heard Magnus was in the throne room for the whole siege having a coffee with his da... creator. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Yes the Ultramarines performed admirably at the walls of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Who cares about the Ultramarines during the Heresy ? They more or less do nothing but sit on their hands for the whole time appart from Calth. No wonder they made it with the biggest numbers after the Heresy. The Ultramarines become relevant during the Scouring. Appart from that, the Word Bearers pretty much succeeded in keeping them out of play for the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 The Traitor Legions were utterly defeated by the Ultramarines during the scouring. That Chaos bloke from TTOH even remarks upon that fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 All a matter of circumstance. Here is how I see it. (all are "allies") Russ engages t sons. (With soh support) "Win for Horus" Istvann - Win for the traitors- 8 on 3, prep advantage traitors. Traitors Move again in Secrecy. Word bearers attack Ultras (Massive legion due to Guillimans foresight) Enough numbers to barely get through betrayal. Enough support to rapidly rebuild. Dark angels tear each other in half, Stopped Horus but aided pertuabo- neutral win for both sides Loyalists scramble for terra- Horus scrambles for terra but has to seek an equaliser before fighting the Emperor. Russ, mainly unaffected wants to do all he can to end Horus. Does not go as planned but buys time. (Precious Time) Terra is reinforced. Ultras due to epic support of the east sector are able to mop up. Although emotions run high, nothing is resolved. More assets lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 The Traitor Legions were utterly defeated by the Ultramarines during the scouring. That Chaos bloke from TTOH even remarks upon that fact. Last I checked this thread isn't about the Ultramarines. So please stop the baiting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page/5/#findComment-4596648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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