Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Speculation is the only variation of a proclamation we have.  

[JH79]

Apologies if this was already covered but i last followed this thread when it was on page 2... is it possible that Magnus could of had some involvement with Russ's injuries? There are Space Wolves present on the cover of the next Thousand Sons novel so could there be a possible tie in there? I have the feeling that if Horus were to take a fight seriously being as imbued with Chaos potential as he is following Molech that not just Russ, but any Primarch (I'm looking at you Sanguinius) would fall... permanently. I am quite looking forward to this story being fleshed out, hopefully through a full novel.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Traitor Legions were utterly defeated by the Ultramarines during the scouring.

 

That Chaos bloke from TTOH even remarks upon that fact.

According to the actual rulebook, both Leman Russ and Guilliman lead the Scouring

[Vesper]

The Traitor Legions were utterly defeated by the Ultramarines during the scouring.

 

That Chaos bloke from TTOH even remarks upon that fact.

 

Well, during the Scouring, the Ultramarines are one thousand strong and don't really matter much either. But they're there. And "utterly" to the point of the Legions still being a vital threat by 40k. Let's just say they pushed them back into the Eye and such. With help.

 

And I don't remember which Chaos bloke said that, or that such a thing was stated in TToH. But if you can provide a quote, I'd like to read it, for sure.

[Arkangilos]

 

The Traitor Legions were utterly defeated by the Ultramarines during the scouring.

 

That Chaos bloke from TTOH even remarks upon that fact.

 

Well, during the Scouring, the Ultramarines are one thousand strong and don't really matter much either. But they're there. And "utterly" to the point of the Legions still being a vital threat by 40k. Let's just say they pushed them back into the Eye and such. With help.

 

And I don't remember which Chaos bloke said that, or that such a thing was stated in TToH. But if you can provide a quote, I'd like to read it, for sure.

 

I thought the codex happened after the scouring?

[Vesper]

It's during the Scouring, if I'm right. For instance, the battle of Tsalguala, that scatters the remaining Night Lords there is made by all the successors of the Ultramarines.

[LaurieJGoulding]

The Scouring begins, at least in theory, when the traitors are routed at Terra. That's in late 014.M31.

 

The Second Founding begins, on paper, in 021.M31. That's after the traitors have been completely driven back and Guilliman has returned to Terra, to take charge of the High Lords.

 

(Guilliman gets his throat cut in 121.M31, and the Third Founding is sometime around the turn of 000.M32, at Dorn's command. Unrelated, but good for context.)

 

As for the Wolves, I think there's a lot more to them. They certainly believe their own hype, and Russ totally made the title of Executioner his own. (I like the idea that he claimed it, and no one dared to oppose, even though it's not an actual job!) But I like the idea that they are one of the few Legions with a bit of a sense of humour, but not when their honour is at stake.

 

I wonder if they "blunted their teeth" by taking on all the biggest and most horrible foes. That gives them a sense of strength, alongside a sense of tragedy. They couldn't possibly keep that up forever - not even Russ himself.

 

Rather than something for SW fans to get upset about, I think the fact that they have taken some high-profile beatings in the Heresy actually makes them more impressive, because BY GUM, they still come out swinging! They can be mauled to within an inch of their lives, facing almost total destruction, and yet still be something that Horus himself fears enough to try and hurry the endgame of the Siege of Terra.

 

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

[Vesper]

So, in theory, the attack on Tsagualsa (since that's how it's spelled, I checked) happens after the Scouring. Or maybe the Ultramarines just splitted before the actual and official Second Founding.

[LaurieJGoulding]

The Ultramarines Successors' co-ordinated attack on the Night Lords' stronghold does indeed take place after the Scouring.

 

I can find the exact date tomorrow, if that would be useful?

[Vesper]

I'll be sincere : I don't plan in making any use of the info, but I'll have the pleasure of knowing a little more and being a little less ignorant on the subject. Plus I'm usually not the only dude who roam over here so it might come in handy for some Night Lords player or something.

 

But, regardless, thanks for clarifying this.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That moment when you guys don't realize you've been trolled for the past two pages, and have continued trying to debate him lul

[b1soul]

Don't really see how SW are faring worse than other loyalist legions

 

Every loyalist legion has taken a beating up to now

 

DA - Tied up at Thramas, need a magical xenos tech to win

 

WS - Lose half their fleet making it back to Terra

 

IF - Have their Solar and Terran defenses humiliatingly compromised by the AL

 

BA - Savaged at Signus

 

IH - Istvaan

 

UM - Mauled by the Shadow Crusade against Ultramar

 

Sallies - Istvaan

 

RG - Istvaan

 

SW - Win at Prospero, lose at Alaxxes (of course they do), lose at Yarant (even more of a given)

 

We have no idea how Russ is wounded at Yarant. I doubt he fights Horus and survives.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

 

all of that sounds pretty sweet, but i think the problem is (or atleast the problem is for me is) that its just a reputation. 

 

I personally feel as if I havent seen much from the Wolves to back up the reputation of "badassness" that they've been attracted so far.

 

I think it was in Deliverance Lost that Noriz of the Imperial Fists and Branne of the Raven Guard make a wager of which Primarch would be the one to kill Horus, Sanguinius or Russ. For me at the time, I thought that was amazingly awesome. Two legionnaires pick different primarchs to defeat Horus, neither voicing their own. One of the RG even said something like "Once the Space Wolves get involved, this will be over quick"

 

I guess I got too psyched, because the most awesome thing I've seen of the Vlka Fenryka so far is the squad that stood against the Night Haunter in Unremembered Empire. Sure, they got beaten badly, but facing down that nightmare and having any survivors is something to be proud of. Especially as they achieved their goal of rescuing Guilliman's adopted mother (with the aid of a near naked and insane Primarch, of course)

 

Since then it's been, again in my eyes, somewhat disheartening for the Vlka Fenryka. Maybe the eventual release of Inferno will remedy this.

[DarkChaplain]

The Lion also had to send part of his fleet under Corswain back to Caliban to pick up new recruits because they had taken big losses against the Night Lords and all. Too bad there was a schism brewing at home.

 

White Scars were bleeding themselves dry to the point the Khan almost threw the Legion away because the chance of getting to Terra was tiny and he'd rather go out fighting.

 

Imperial Fists also took massive losses at Phall - they did well up to a point, and then disengaged upon being recalled, taking big hits in the process and turning a winning battle into a costly stalemate.

 

Everybody got run into the ground, especially in the early phases. The Wolves simply are a Legion that won't let go and replenish for long. Even when Russ was at Terra, it was for necessary repairs and he was chafing at his inactivity. They wanted off the leash again, being out there snapping at Horus's heels.

 

The Ultramarines took stock of the situation and tried to secure their own space which was being crusaded in, with two Legions running amok. The Dark Angels tried to send for reinforcements and kept going after Curze while also taking it a little easier in the relatively safe Ultramar. The Blood Angels had suffered greatly at Signus and had some time to adjust before heading to Terra. The Raven Guard went back home to restore their numbers rapidly, recruiting new legionaries. The Imperial Fists had it "easy" without large-scale traitor interference for the most part, building walls for years before the first real assaults. The Salamanders were almost inconsequential past Isstvan, and were mostly assimilated by the other shattered legions.

 

But the Wolves never settled down. I am not clear on whether or not they went to the Fang after Prospero anymore; Kaspar was supposedly put into stasis under the Fang after Prospero, with him and the Wolf King being at Asaheim. But then it looked like Russ and co were still limping to Alaxxes first - though Kaspar hasn't appeared in any material since Prospero Burns iirc.

Any clarification from Laurie on this?

[b1soul]

I think it was in Deliverance Lost that Noriz of the Imperial Fists and Branne of the Raven Guard make a wager of which Primarch would be the one to kill Horus, Sanguinius or Russ. For me at the time, I thought that was amazingly awesome. Two legionnaires pick different primarchs to defeat Horus, neither voicing their own. One of the RG even said something like "Once the Space Wolves get involved, this will be over quick"

 

I'm very glad that they're reining that sort of wanky stuff in

 

IMO, it's silly for the SW (or any legion) to be significantly more badass than the others

 

I totally get why SW fans would love it...but I'm not a SW fan, so that sort of fan service has no appeal to me

 

I wouldn't even want BA or WS to get that type of special treatment. It wouldn't make sense IMO

[Scribe]

Honestly, its all Prospero Burns' fault. That book was so poorly done in setting expectations its taken how many years to correct?

 

No Legion should ever have been elevated, the concept of the Wolves being the Executioners of other legions was a mistake.

[mc warhammer]

Honestly, its all Prospero Burns' fault. That book was so poorly done in setting expectations its taken how many years to correct?

 

No Legion should ever have been elevated, the concept of the Wolves being the Executioners of other legions was a mistake.

i don't think so. whenever abnett writes a legion, whether it's lunar wolves, space wolves, alpha legion or ultramarines- the book itself always paints that particular legion as the best of the best. makes sense to me, as long as you take it with a grain of salt.

[Splog]

I'm intrigued by the psychology of it. So many people are happy with Legion X being the best at Y, whether that is seige warfare, rate of conquest, rate of bringing productive civilisations into the fold, etc. However the suggestion that one Legion might be better (or thinks they're better) at killing other legionnaires.... the horror.

[mc warhammer]

I'm intrigued by the psychology of it. So many people are happy with Legion X being the best at Y, whether that is seige warfare, rate of conquest, rate of bringing productive civilisations into the fold, etc. However the suggestion that one Legion might be better (or thinks they're better) at killing other legionnaires.... the horror.

it's not even "better" in terms of ability though, right? simply a mix of willingness and loyalty that (in their minds) makes them more suitable

[Scribe]

I'm not going to dig that book out to get sources (again...) but it was far more than willingness and loyalty (which are both things ADB posted to try and fix the perception issue PB gave us) alone could explain away.

 

Legion never had the whole fandom up in arms like PB continues to.

[mc warhammer]

I'm not going to dig that book out to get sources (again...) but it was far more than willingness and loyalty (which are both things ADB posted to try and fix the perception issue PB gave us) alone could explain away.

 

Legion never had the whole fandom up in arms like PB continues to.

meh, i don't see the issue but then again i'm not a fan, so a lot of it has probably gone over my head

[b1soul]

However the suggestion that one Legion might be better (or thinks they're better) at killing other legionnaires.... the horror.

1. It doesn't make sense. Why are SW better in that regard? No sensible explanation.

 

2. It riles ppl because it more clearly denotes direct superiority over other legions

[Legatus]

whenever abnett writes a legion, whether it's lunar wolves, space wolves, alpha legion or ultramarines- the book itself always paints that particular legion as the best of the best.

 

I somehow must have completely missed that in 'Know No Fear' where the Word bearers succeed at Calth and Guilliman is beaten up by Kor Phaeron, or 'Unremembered Empire' where a Space Wolves squad and Vulkan have to protect Guilliman's mom and Guilliman is beaten up by a squad of Alpha Legionaries.

 

 

The Problem with Abnett's description of the Space Wolves was that he declared them specifically the most brutal/unhinged/terrifying Legion of them all, when there were at least two Legions that had been publicly censured by the Emperor for their transgressions, and were known to bring planetary governours (NL) or even foreign empires (WE) to heel by just their reputation. It went so far that A D-B even went on to "clarify" in another book why those two particular Legions had not been picked as "executioners".

[Splog]

 

1. It doesn't make sense. Why are SW better in that regard? No sensible explanation.

 

[\quote]

 

I think people are assuming there must a large and substantial difference to justify the claim. But there doesn't need to be. There is a short story where the Ultramarines are training and planning to fight other Asrartes. Why should they do such a thing? To be better at it. They thought that in a short space of time they could be better at it without having some radical edge. There is a reason militaries aim to get specialised/experienced units in our own age. Will, intent, training, plans already in place, prior experience, differences in doctrine. All these things can make you better at something than your adversary. It doesn't have to be some large and dramatic difference. I don't recall any suggestion, even amongst the VIth, that the Wolves wouldn't have a hard time taking on another legion.

 

2. It riles ppl because it more clearly denotes direct superiority over other legions

 

I think you are right in identifying the problem,, but people are making a mistake in thinking that. Even if the Wolves are better than others in this one regard, there are a whole range of things that other legions are better at. Why then should they be considered superior? They wouldn't be a first choice for a void war, or establishing a stronghold, or (perhaps) taking on a human empire that you want to be tightly and willingly integrated into the imperium after you give them a sound kicking.

[LaurieJGoulding]

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

 

RE: Ultramarines vs Night Lords, this is from the timeline document that we've compiled as the HH bible for all GW departments. Taken from a sideways reference in ADB's novels.

 

216.M31                  The Ultramarines and their Successor Chapters symbolically reform the XIII Legion in order to drive the Night Lords from Tsagualsa

 

RE: 'Inferno', it feels like a lot of people are hoping that this will be the great return to the days of when Dan's depiction of the VI was new and bright and exciting. Alan Bligh and his team have said at TWO events now, that they aren't following 'Prospero Burns' any more than any other source.

 

(Also, and I know this is an unpopular truth here for some reason, the background in those books is deliberately written to be a potentially unreliable narrator - the mysterious "A.K." So it's no more "true" than any other historical essay, written by the victors...)